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Thread: Suspension Design

  1. #251
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    WHY A SOFT TWIST-MODE???
    ==========================

    It has been suggested (on another thread) that while a soft Twist-mode might be advantageous on bumpy roads, it might offer NO such advantages on smooth, sealed roads, such as those typical in circuit racing.

    Those of you who prefer to "follow the numbers", rather than the unquantified opinions of experts, please read on...
    ~~~o0o~~~

    Milliken's RCVD, Chapter 18 "Wheel Loads" starts with,
    "The [vertical] loads at each wheel are extremely important in determining a car's maximum steady-state cornering capability." (my emphasis).

    The chapter goes on to give examples of how to calculate these vertical wheel loads. Quite reasonably, these calculations are simplified by assumptions such as,
    "...steady-state operating conditions - that is, smooth roadway, constant speed cornering, constant longitudinal acceleration, constant grade, etc.
    ... roll rates, spring rates ... are linear,
    ... chassis of the car ... is [torsionally] rigid."
    , and so on.
    In fact, there are about 5 pages discussing the importance of a torsionally stiff chassis, because,
    "... if the chassis torsional spring is weak, attempts to control the lateral load transfer distribution (and "balance" the car's handling by resisting more of the rolling moment on one track than the other) will be confusing at best and impossible at worst." (my emphasis again).

    Equations for calculating the variations to wheel loads from a large number of different factors are then given, including,
    * CG position,
    * lateral and longitudinal load transfer from horizontal Gs,
    * banking,
    * crests and dips in the road (albeit in a 2-D vertical-longitudinal plane only),
    * aero loads,
    * engine torque reaction (for front-engine -> live-rear-axle drivetrain).

    It is quite clear, however, from the seven-plus pages devoted to it, that the Millikens believe that Lateral Load Transfer Distribution is the most important factor to be considered when "adjusting handling balance" (which, in this particular area, I agree with). I repeat this for emphasis, if the wheel loads do NOT change as per your intended LLTD (or Claude's "Magic Number"), then the car will not handle the way you expect it to.

    At the end of the chapter is "18.11 Summary Example". This works through some of the above calculations for what might be a "sportscar", or perhaps a fairly softly sprung racecar (the corner-spring and ARB rates are a lot less than the tyre rates, so the car is not a very stiffly-sprung aero-car). Right at the very end of the chapter, on page 708 (my older version), is Table 18.1 summarising the changes in wheel loads due to the various factors. For this particular example the "Banking" effect is quite large (ie. oval track racing), the "Aero" effect quite small (ie. no big wings), and, quite clearly, the LLTD is by far the most important effect.

    Please go through the RCVD example in more detail, but for now take it that the car is slightly front heavy, but roughly with about 900 lbs weight per wheel. There is a Total LLT of about 800 lbs (from the two inside wheels, to the two outside wheels). This is distributed by the "springs, bars, and RC heights" as +/-430 lbs front, and +/-370 lbs rear, giving LLTD = 54%F, 46%R.
    ~~~o0o~~~

    Now the twist in the story. Nowhere in this 40 page chapter is any mention made of any TWIST in the road! All four wheelprints are ALWAYS considered to be lying in a PERFECTLY FLAT plane!

    Fortunately, there was a large blank space at the end of the chapter, so I added some more calculations. I imagined that the road is very "smooth", but it is also cambered in the usual manner so that the road surface has a cylindrical shape, which in "end-view" has a radius of about 40 metres. So, if the two edges of the road are 10 metres (30 ft) apart, then the centreline of the road is 0.3 metres (1 ft) higher than the edges (quite typical of real roads).

    Driving parallel to the centreline of this road introduces no Twist into the suspension, even if the road curves around a bend. But a car with ~3 metre wheelbase and ~1.5 metre track, driving diagonally across this road at an angle of about 15 degrees to the centreline, has about 7 mm (1/4") of Twist-mode between its four wheelprints (ie. one diagonal pair of wheelprints are up 7 mm, and the other diagonal pair down 7 mm, wrt car-body). Please do the calcs to assure yourselves of this.

    Furthermore, if the car is doing 100 mph (~45 m/s) while following this diagonal line from the outside of the road towards the inside "apex", then it will spend almost a full second with its suspension constantly "Twisted" by 7 mm. So the Twist is effectively "steady-state". But when exiting the corner, from inner apex to outside of road, the Twist will be in the opposite direction!

    And even furthermore, if the road surface is smoothly cambered "concave up", as is common with banked corners, then the Twist introduced by a diagonal driving line is of the same magnitude as above, but of opposite sign.
    ~~~o0o~~~

    So, the big question:
    What does this twist-in-the-road do to your precisely calculated wheel loads?

    Based on the (quite soft) corner-spring and ARB rates in the Milliken example, the 1/4" Twist changes the wheel loads by about +/-160 lbs! And depending on which way the Twist is, the LLTD ends up being either 74%F, 26%R (for corner entry of convex-up road), or 34%F, 66%R (corner exit, convex-up road). Put simply, the handling balance changes from massive understeer on corner entry, to massive oversteer on corner exit. Yippeeee!!!

    Anyway, there are a whole lot of other effects which should also be considered, some of which lessen the above changes, others which exacerbate them. But the bottom line is that with conventional suspensions, all your precise "handling balance" calculations get tossed out the window as soon as you put the car on a real road. And THE STIFFER THE SPRINGS, especially the Roll and Twist-mode stiffening Lateral-U-Bars (= ARBs), THE WORSE! Please do the calcs.
    ~~~o0o~~~

    Finally, it is worth noting that FSAE's short-wheelbase-small-track cars don't feel the above sort of twist-in-the-road as much as larger cars (because the further the wheelprints are apart, the further the road surface moves out of a flat-plane). But any "twist-in-the-road" will still change the wheel loads of your FSAE car.

    How much? Easy to measure! Put your car on its four corner scales, on FLAT ground. Adjust your spring-mounts so that the corner-weights are symmetrical side-to-side. Now slip a 6 mm thick piece of plywood under two diagonally opposite wheels (or a single 12 mm piece under one wheel). This represents a Twist-mode of 3 mm (1/8"), which might represent some parts of some of the "wilder" FSAE tracks. Write down the changes in the four wheel loads.

    Now ask yourselves why you bothered doing all those precise "handling balance" calculations in the first place. Because, with conventional suspensions, the road decides what the LLTD is, not you!

    Z
    Last edited by Z; 03-20-2014 at 09:05 PM.

  2. #252
    .......*slow clap*

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAryFIuRxmQ


    Z, I will have to take you up on this one and add a page to my calculations.

    While the "billiard smooth surfaces" that FSAE runs on may not see this effect very much, many of the testing surfaces that these cars are put on are not. Honestly, Baghdad probably has some roads with a better surface than our test lot.
    It interests me how significant the effect may be so logically, I must investigate.

    In related news, an article that is somewhat related that I was reading today dealt with ensuring that cars remained stable once a wheel was lifted, either front or rear. The concern was mostly with FWD cars, but it's also applicable to other drivetypes. Whether it's due to road surface, inherent vehicle layout, or whatever it may, the car will eventually lift a wheel in the right conditions -- even if it's an LMP or F1 banging off of kerbs. It's important to learn the basics of what happens at steady-state in the right conditions, but it gets weird when there are exceptions and oddities which very well happen in everyday life.

    Thank you for supplying a relevant example of this condition.

  3. #253
    Hi Z,

    Presumably if you factor in body slip angle (approx. rear tyre slip angle neglecting toe), the effect is even greater?

    Regards, Ian

  4. #254
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    Good read...

    I also realised some years ago that for lap simulation, the track shape (im talking about camber, banking and inclination, not bump profiles) is a huge chunk of the overall system. After spending months trying to match a lapsim to track data and failing at one particular corner, I went to the track in question and noted about 7-8deg of banking on this corner (this was a typical european supposedly flat closed circuit, not an oval). I built a 3D track model based on eyeball measurements from a couple of laps I did with a support car and the sim behaved completely differently. Compltely threw out the driver model, but thats another story.

    I have to say though... a 300mm rise and fall across 10m is quite an exaggeration. Monza for example is 10m wide (which is extremely narrow for a typical F1 track) for pretty much the entire lap... imagine a 300mm rise in the middle of this. I'd just about class that as offroad.

    Last edited by Tim.Wright; 03-22-2014 at 07:05 AM.

  5. #255
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    Also regarding the longitudinal Z bar layout, I have to say that image above shows what a bulky system this would be to package. The floor area of any modern car (road or race) is so absolutely full of stuff that there is nowhere to put these torsion bars.

    The low CG argument doesn't fly with me either since so many heavy things would need to be RAISED in order to fit these bars, you would probably end up back at square 1 for CGh.

    Also, how would you go about getting adequate roll damping?

  6. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by Z View Post
    the handling balance changes from massive understeer on corner entry, to massive oversteer on corner exit. Yippeeee!!!
    Funny, thats what just about EVERY NASCAR driver complains about ALL THE TIME. Especially when comparing the "Old Cars" to the "COT" (with it's life savingly strong center section)
    Buckingham

  7. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim.Wright View Post
    Also regarding the longitudinal Z bar layout, I have to say that image above shows what a bulky system this would be to package. The floor area of any modern car (road or race) is so absolutely full of stuff that there is nowhere to put these torsion bars.

    The low CG argument doesn't fly with me either since so many heavy things would need to be RAISED in order to fit these bars, you would probably end up back at square 1 for CGh.

    Also, how would you go about getting adequate roll damping?
    If only there was a way to create the same result as the Z bars using a different method, I can think of one. Potentially lighter too! (Electronics has nothing to do with it either...)

  8. #258
    Quote Originally Posted by dazz View Post
    If only there was a way to create the same result as the Z bars using a different method, I can think of one. Potentially lighter too! (Electronics has nothing to do with it either...)

    If it involves any long length of hydraulics, keep in mind that fluid has an inertance property that you can use to your advantage, or destroy your day if you over look it.


    EDIT: Bad Autocorrect.
    This is what I get for commenting from mobile.
    Last edited by MCoach; 03-24-2014 at 05:46 PM.

  9. #259
    It can be bars, push-pull rods, wire, hydraulics...many ways to implement it actually!

  10. #260
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    Fluid Inheritance

    The only fluid generally recognized to have inheritance potential is .. well you can probably guess (hopefully).

    All fluids have inertance, though. It's usually best to exercise good inertance when dealing out your inheritance fluid.

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