General Formula Questions, Help!

[Cal Kirley]

Hi everyone,
Since this is my first post, I'll introduce myself. My name is Cal Kirley, and I'm a senior at Kettle Moraine High School in Wales, WI. I took a massive interest in Formula SAE my sophomore year and have developed my own project involving a racing kart frame and a CBR F2 engine to boost fabrication and design skills so that I won't be completely clueless should I find myself on an FSAE team. I have done this all on my own - neither of my parents have any fabrication ability. I have learned MIG welding through my high school's fabrication program, and hope to learn TIG this year. All other skills were self taught (CAD design and stress simulations using Autodesk Inventor, engine performance tuning theory). It's almost complete now and down to the little things, and I hope to finish it within the next month or two. I know it won't handle as well as it could with a differential or be as quick or easily tunable as one with a fuel injection system, but the purpose was for me to learn fabrication skills and create this project on my own. Here's a picture from last year if you were interested; the current kart isn't as pretty but further along.

http://s907.photobucket.com/al...current=P1010646.jpg (http://s907.photobucket.com/albums/ac276/calkirley/?action=view&current=P1010646.jpg)

Now to my questions:

1) What kind of fabricating, design, or mechanical skills do most incoming members have?

2) Are there any Formula SAE related scholarships offered by schools or other parties that I could apply for?

3) I have talked to various people who have either participated in the Formula program themselves or known someone who has, and all seem to be saying that FSAE greatly helps when applying for jobs. Is this true?

4) Are there any other words of wisdom that you could have for an incoming freshman?

Any and all help is greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Cal Kirley

[AxelRipper]

Wow. Very impressive. Nice work.


Now the questions:

1.) The skill levels range from never having seen a wrench before to having worked in machine/fab shops. Most of the freshmen that come in (to my experience) fall closer to the former than the latter. The more experience you have in that kind of stuff, the sooner you can jump right in and help out, but it isn't required in order to join an SAE team. Where you're at now with your skills it sounds as if you've got a MASSIVE jump on most of the incoming students.

2.) Occasionally, but not really that I know of (at least not here). There are some that are given to SAE students if you can find them though.

3.) Yes. Especially in companies that deal with racing. Most of them will immediately toss your resume if you don't have experience on an SAE team. It also helps with answering canned interview questions ("Please describe a time you overcame adversity to succeed with a goal.")

4.) Check out http://www.kettering.edu http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

EDIT: One more word of wisdom that I forgot somehow that you probably already know: Read the Rules.

[Racer-X]

First off I would like to congratulate you on building an awesome kart that doesn't have to run a restrictor (not that I suggest that you put hot cams in it or anything...). I hope you have fun with it.

1. When I started I had no real fab or CAD skills. I had messed around with random projects in high school but nothing like building a kart from scratch. If you have fab skills that gives you a leg up on most new members. The CAD skills are great too, and will probably land you a small design project.

Since our team is mostly mechanical engineers we get people who have an interest in cars (bench racers) and might have some experience working on cars/mechanical things. At the same time the majority of new members have never wrenched before and just showed up because racecar. We take anyone who is willing to work and learn.

2. No school in the US that I know of likes FSAE enough to give students scholarships. There might be a third party, I haven't looked into it though.

3. That is true. Last week was IR (job fair) at my school and I wasn't even looking for an internship and companies tracked me down to talk to me. Companies like to see FSAE on a resume and it is a great way to network. I can't think of a member on our team in recent years that hasn't had a job lined up out of school(those that wanted one anyway).

4. I have a few:
a. Have fun and try all the teams/sub parts of the car your first year. You will eventually find what you like the most and you can make that your "area" of the car. I didn't do that as much as I would have liked to and I feel I missed out on part of what makes FSAE so cool.
b. Go to testing. When the team takes the old car out first semester to test go with them if you can. It is fun and lets you see what you are building.
c. I see you are from the Midwest have you looked at Purdue? Here is our FSAE page https://engineering.purdue.edu/fsae/wordpress/

[Mbirt]

Cal, is that a 5-valve Yamaha I see in your stable? Kettering runs the WR450f motor and needs engine guys bad. Not to sound like a broken record after AxelRipper, but it's such a small school that you can be as involved as you want on an SAE team as soon as you start. No membership application, no senior project structure, no waiting. It's worth checking the school out.

[jlangholzj]

Madison has had a pretty successful FSAE program the last year all things considered.

1) it really doesn't matter. In fact guys with minimal "racing" experience I've found are the best, less preconceived notions about trying to set the car up like an outlaw or a dirt track car.

2) haven't heard of any

3) YES. a giant resounding YES. in FSAE you're basically running a small company on your own. You design, build and work with industries to make your parts and gain a pretty large social network. It will give you a large leg-up not only in experience but knowing what can and cannot be made and making it easier for companies to make said part. I really can't stress how important being involved with SAE is....I can't vouch as much for other schools but over in our area, it seems like the FSAE bunch tend to hold themselves to a "higher standard" than the rest....its makes you a better engineer for being part of it.

4) don't be intimidated. FSAE tends to attract "type-A" personalities. There's going to be a lot to absorb and generally lots of stuff you wont get right away. Just keep showing up and it'll all start to click eventually.

Also, if another team member gives you criticism, don't take it personally. I've found that some people have a hard time taking advice/criticism from their peers vs a faculty member. Don't let that be a hurdle.

one last thing:
if you're choosing a uni based on their FSAE team, try and find a mid sized team. A larger team can give you more success but often times you may end up being "just a number". Smaller teams will give more opportunity for involvement and more reward in the long run.

I'm going for my EE and ME both, so one minute I'm doing radiator calcs, then some engine modeling, and then circuit design and PCB's, then back onto the dyno...etc...everyone on our team has their own "specialty" but we all have a decent handle on how all of our parts work together.

I'll throw a pitch in too and say come to south dakota state! But i've also found that *generally* we're all in this together and you'll find a good team anywhere.

Wild Hare Racing - South Dakota State (http://www.facebook.com/pages/Wild-Hare-Racing/107961454476)

[Markus]

I'm not going to answer most of the questions 'cause in Finland it's mostly a different story but I'll give my 2 cents on the FEA part.

I see a lot of danger in the self-taught FEA part. Please keep yourself really self-critical and openminded, and enroll to a stress analysis course as soon as possible.

FEA will give you a false confidence on part design and CICO method is used too often...

It took me a lot more work to understand the basics of stress simulation after self-learning the programs that having started from a blank paper. This is a common problem of too user-friendly FEA software.

[Cardriverx]

I agree with everything said.

1) From nothing to some experience. It really doesn't matter, we are here to teach you. But having the kind of experience you do helps to get you involved more quickly.

2) Not that I have seen in the US.

3) FSAE got me two internships and a job offer, and I havent even graduated yet. Oh, my GPA is a 2.5. so yes, yes, yes, it helps a ton.

4) Just stick around, it is really hard to involve all the new guys from the get go. Let us know if you feel neglected.

Oh, Pitt FSAE (http://engineering.pitt.edu/fsae/)

Go to the University of Pittsburgh, we could use you =)

[Owen Thomas]

Everyone seems to be hitting the nail on the head with the questions you asked, and I'm going to agree on all fronts. Join any team with an open mind, build the trust of the senior members, and make yourself useful; you will have a good first year experience, guaranteed.

With regards to #2, however, there are some schools which provide more support for student teams than others (for SAE specifically). Faculty support is obviously huge, but it's the things people don't usually mention that may make a big difference in your decision. As in life, politics and public perception will probably muddle up your logic-based decisions, so you may as well try and account for them.

Something no one has seemed to mention here is that you shouldn't really be searching for a Formula team, you should be looking at your university. Yes, FSAE is awesome and fantastic and the good teams are in certain places, but in the end it's all just part of your education. Which is part of your career.

So, my advice is to pick your school based on your intended career path. If you're interested in automotive or race engineering, make damn sure the school you go to at least has a minor in auto. Although, the overall quality of the education you recieve is obviously important as well. The location matters too, since many cities have a "specialized" industry. It is much harder to find jobs in an industry which has absolutely no base in your area.

It is understandably difficult to think so far ahead, which to me seems like why you are looking to join a Formula team, and not look at a school. In high school you're looking to the next step (college experience), but remember that after that you'll be looking at jobs and the the rest of your life. You have lots of options, so shop around and make the right choice.
</rant>

It is at this time that I would like to plug the many fine Canadian engineering schools. Don't forget to look internationally! (if you can afford to)

[Charles Kaneb]

Your experience puts you in the top quarter of all entering FSAE students for sure, maybe beyond. Definitely way up there as a freshman; you could be a significant contributor for four or five years to the right program.

While there aren't any FSAE-specific scholarships that I've heard of, I think an interest in FSAE and a bunch of photos and drawings documenting your build will help you with the admissions and financial aid dep'ts at any of the leading programs.

Time for the shameless plug - come on down south - the weather's great, we can test all year, and both Texas A&M and University of Texas Arlington put together interesting and fast cars every year.

[Cal Kirley]

Thank you all for the replies and kind words. I appreciate the time and thought put into the answers all of you have provided.

Mbirt:
Good eye! The one sitting in the picture is an 06 YZ250f, and in the background there is an 03 YZ250f and a YZ426. I've gotten pretty confident with the five valve Yamaha engines as I've been working on them at my job as a mechanic as well as maintaining the ones that we (my family) race.

Markus:
I am more than open minded when it comes to stress analysis, especially because it's in my nature to try and figure out why things work the way that they do. I'd like to be able to sit down and depend on equations, not a computer, for a stress test, but for now I have nobody to teach me. The closest I have come to calculating stress loads was when I did stress/strain calculations on bridge trusses as part of a Project Lead the Way class last year.

Owen:
I would really like to get into a career with either cars or motorcycles. Would you suggest that I pick a school near Detroit or Bowling Green or one that has a minor in auto?

[Cardriverx]

Truthfully, it depends. Do you want to get a masters in automotive engineering? Then go to a school with some sort of automotive grad program.

Otherwords, in my experience, it is not really a big deal. For example, I got a job offer with a racing electronics company, and during the internship I worked with them I got to meet some engineers from race teams that I could now apply for. Our electronics lead is going to work for that same racing electronics company too. Also, our president from last year now works with Honda R&D.

Pitt does not have any kind of automotive program, FSAE is it. So, again in my experience, if you want to work in racing or the automotive sector, going to a school that specifically has an automotive degree is not necessary.

Hope that helps! My advice is to visit as many schools as possible, and think hard about the city vs country atmosphere. If I went to a school in the middle of nowhere I would have gone crazy, I love being around a city.


Originally posted by Cal Kirley:
Thank you all for the replies and kind words. I appreciate the time and thought put into the answers all of you have provided.

Mbirt:
Good eye! The one sitting in the picture is an 06 YZ250f, and in the background there is an 03 YZ250f and a YZ426. I've gotten pretty confident with the five valve Yamaha engines as I've been working on them at my job as a mechanic as well as maintaining the ones that we (my family) race.

Markus:
I am more than open minded when it comes to stress analysis, especially because it's in my nature to try and figure out why things work the way that they do. I'd like to be able to sit down and depend on equations, not a computer, for a stress test, but for now I have nobody to teach me. The closest I have come to calculating stress loads was when I did stress/strain calculations on bridge trusses as part of a Project Lead the Way class last year.

Owen:
I would really like to get into a career with either cars or motorcycles. Would you suggest that I pick a school near Detroit or Bowling Green or one that has a minor in auto?

[,4lex S.]

So, as for scholarship. Haven't heard of one, but there is another way. The tuition in Canada, even I think for international students is lower. I don't know a Canadian engineering school without a team.

Job wise. Yes, this program is a major advantage. I got all 4 of my co-op jobs so far because of formula. My marks aren't stellar because of working on the car, but employers typically care a lot more about the skills you pick up on your team.

You also tend to advance faster in an organization.

[Owen Thomas]

Cal,

I would simply suggest that you take the location and the quality of your school into account when making your decision.

Ditto on what Cardriverx said, I did not mean to imply before that it would be *impossible* to find a job in the automotive sector, it will just require a little more work on your end.

I would also say that in all honesty, I have gotten more value from my 2 active seasons on a Formula team than I did in 3 years of engineering school. Probably by an embarrassingly large margin. What I'm trying to say is you're not headed down the wrong track, just don't narrow your vision too much.

Oh, and your cart looks sweet. If (when) you join formula, make sure you use it for driver training! And try not to damage yourself with it in the mean time http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Francis Gagné]

I agree with most of the things written here as well.

But on the B-Side, I would suggest some sort of firewall on your kart. Safety is a huge concern in Formula SAE, and even then, fireballs like in the following picture are not uncommon.

Be careful, be fast ('cause burned or dead isn't fast at all)

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3248/2797577823_63ebd74d7b_o.jpg