ECU selection..

[Dan Lentsch]

I know this topic has been brought up before, but the latest thread I saw was a couple years old. My question is who has the best ECU for the money? I've been looking into the MoTec Unit, AEM, and Performance electronics. For teams that have used more than one of these, how does their software line up, which one is the most user friendly? Lastly, does it matter that the performance electronics ECU doesn't look at the A/F ratio via lambda sensor to adjust the fuel / ignition map? Our team is very new to this and are just curious to see what everyone has to say.. Thanks!

[Dan Lentsch]

I know this topic has been brought up before, but the latest thread I saw was a couple years old. My question is who has the best ECU for the money? I've been looking into the MoTec Unit, AEM, and Performance electronics. For teams that have used more than one of these, how does their software line up, which one is the most user friendly? Lastly, does it matter that the performance electronics ECU doesn't look at the A/F ratio via lambda sensor to adjust the fuel / ignition map? Our team is very new to this and are just curious to see what everyone has to say.. Thanks!

[nickerss]

We've used Performance Electronics for 3 years. It's very simple, easy to use, and the cheapest. We use a standalone wideband oxygen sensor to tune, doesn't really matter that it's not integrated. I wish the maps provided better resolution at high RPMs...below 6K or something you have 500 or 600 RPM increments, but above that, its every 1000 or so, which is annoying.

[Erich Ohlde]

even though the "old" post is a couple of years old, the Motec, AEM, and PE unit haven't changed in that time.

However, I'll indulge you and say that the AEM is what KU has ran since 2004 and we probably won't go away from it. If you get it from Superior Engine Technology all you have to do is build a wire harness and start the engine. I couldn't find anywhere that the hotkeys were all listed but I figured most of them out anyway *main complaint*

[John Grego]

We've used MOTEC as far back as I can remember, atleast 2000. Its easy to use and does the job.

[Dan Lentsch]

I kinda guessed this might happen... 3 responses, 3 different ECUs.. someone out ther has to have used more than one.. I hope

[BryanH]

I've mapped all of them excpt PE and it's pretty basic, get a Motec. If you can't afford one sell you sister and get one anyway
Cheers
RMIT fan club

[Dan Lentsch]

if only I had a sister...

[Mike Hart]

We use a DTA P8 Pro. Virtually identical to the MoTec M400 but a lot cheaper. Live lambda isn't quite as good though as it remaps the engine rather than does a one off percentage adjustment. That may be different on the newer S60 though.

[Drew Price]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nickerss:
We've used Performance Electronics for 3 years. It's very simple, easy to use, and the cheapest. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you don't count MegaSquirt, that is, which would be the cheapest, even if you go the route of standalone wideband (it can take input directly also). It is a ton more time and effort invested though. Erich, I did not realize that the AEM was so user friendly.

We did not have the money for one of the more common units, but 6-8 hours with a soldering iron, a magnifying glass, and thoughful vibration isolating mounts was an excellent compromise for us, and we will likely stick with it for a while due to the large public knowledge base for now.

Best,
Drew

[Ekasey]

Hi Guys,

A friend of mine directed me over too this post, so I figured I'd just let you know there are a few other ECU options out there.

We here at EFI make a 4 cylinder ECU that provides all of the functionality you could desire along with easy to use intuitive software for a competetive price.

for more information visit www.efitechnology.com (http://www.efitechnology.com) or e-mail me at casey.heerman @efitechnology.com

the system that would be best applicable is the Race 1.2 ECU

[Grant Mahler]

Anybody looked at the Spectre Performance eMS-PRO? It looks like a prebuilt Megasquirt with some add on features for ~800.

[Dan Lentsch]

I havent heard of anyone, but it looks like a good deal...

[drivetrainUW-Platt]

What are some of the big advantages of the $700+ ECU's vs Megasquirt?

We ran Megasquirt on our last car and will on this years car. Seemed to work pretty good and you wont beat that price unless you build one yourself (probably copying megasquirt anyways).

[Grant Mahler]

Megasquirt only has 2 injector outputs, so I don't think you can run full sequetial on a 4 stroke 4 cylinder.

Megasquirt does not have the support (i.e. a phone number) that the other boxes have.

With that said, I just got off the phone with MoTeC and the person helping me couldn't name a single thing that the M4 had over the eMS-pro or MegaSquirt. I haven't had those conversations personally with Autronic, but I hear the same thing time and again.

The Performance Electronics box and the eMS-pro are very similar in terms of feature sets, usability, support, price etc. All very straight forward and simple to use.

That being said, if it kills you to not run full sequential on your 4 banger, you should go with MoTeC/Autronic/Tec3R/Haltech etc.

[Kirk Feldkamp]

The most important factor hasn't been mentioned nearly enough: reliability.

Unless you have a team member that knows their electronics shit through and through... and is both responsible and competent, then I wouldn't even THINK about doing a Megasquirt. I don't know how many teams have truly reliable harness builders/maintainers, but unless your team can build/maintain a professional quality harness already, then don't even think about using a 'buildable' ECU. A large portion of the 'extra' money you're paying to buy a commercially built box lies in their manufacturing quality, repeatability, etc. Furthermore, if there is a problem, they fix it, not you. I can definitely understand why some teams would go with a cheaper box. I would say the choice needs to be evaluated on a team by team basis due to the differences in team members. What works for X University may not work for your team.

If you chose to build your ECU, and the engine doesn't run right because some goober on your team can't solder correctly or doesn't understand proper vibration isolation, then your team is going to SUCK at comp.

-Kirk

[Dan Lentsch]

To be honest we don't have a guy on the team who knows a thing about tuning.. That's why I came to everyone here to ask about ECU selection. One option that we do have is a very simple ECU setup that is made by a local company. They will basically make a one off unit specifically for our car for a hell of a price. The only problem is, it doesn't have features like launch and traction control.. I guess in the big picture they don't really matter enough to make a decision on, especially since the system's reliability is the real issue. I guess I just get a bit scared about it since there is not a single other team using the setup.. If anyone wants to see their available units their website is: www.electroniccontrol.com (http://www.electroniccontrol.com)

[Kirk Feldkamp]

Do you have any more info about the boxes? What are the product's capabilities?

[Dan Lentsch]

Ah yeah.. here it is.. btw this is the "expensive one" I dont know that price, but I dont think it would be that much (~ $700)

Features:
"¢ Six (6) Sequential Injection Channels
"¢ Eight (8) Sequential Ignition Timing Channels
"¢ Drive-by-wire governing (DC gear-motor throttle body)
"¢ Gaseous fuel Air/Fuel Ratio Control
"¢ Two (2) Throttle Sensor Input
"¢ Fuel lock/fuel pump control
"¢ Over temp/oil pressure/over-speed shut down
"¢ Two (2) Lambda Feedback Input (Narrow or Wide Band)
"¢ Vehicle Speed Control
"¢ Integral Over-speed/Over-Temp/Oil Pressure Shutdown

16-bit high performance
processor
- Hermetically sealed housing
and connectors
- High Speed Data Bus, CAN
- Data Logging

[drivetrainUW-Platt]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dan Lentsch:
Ah yeah.. here it is.. btw this is the "expensive one" I dont know that price, but I dont think it would be that much (~ $700)

Features:
"¢ Six (6) Sequential Injection Channels
"¢ Eight (8) Sequential Ignition Timing Channels
"¢ Drive-by-wire governing (DC gear-motor throttle body)
"¢ Gaseous fuel Air/Fuel Ratio Control
"¢ Two (2) Throttle Sensor Input
"¢ Fuel lock/fuel pump control
"¢ Over temp/oil pressure/over-speed shut down
"¢ Two (2) Lambda Feedback Input (Narrow or Wide Band)
"¢ Vehicle Speed Control
"¢ Integral Over-speed/Over-Temp/Oil Pressure Shutdown

16-bit high performance
processor
- Hermetically sealed housing
and connectors
- High Speed Data Bus, CAN
- Data Logging </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

-only have 4 cylinder
-only have 4 coils
-cant run it in FSAE
-sounds useful
-only one tb
-could be useful
-good luck getting it to run in endurance

We wouldnt use any of that stuff.

And on the "electrical engineer required for megasquirt"... we have 0 on our team, none that are even electronics junkies. The guy that built/installed/tuned our megasqirt works on cars with carburators and drag radials.

[Brian S]

Another note of MegaSquirt. Like someone mentioned the base package has only 2 fuel drivers, but there is different code you can run plus a few more parts on the board and you get something like 8 fuel and ignition drivers.

~$300, 8 injector and fuel controls, integrated MAP sensor, auto VE table adjustment based on AFR, traction control

[Dan Lentsch]

Thats cool that mega squirt is pretty easy to set up.. I'm bringing the engine down to the company today so we shall see how that goes. Thanks for the help!

[Diablo_niterider]

megasquirt 2 offers sequential and its also out of its beta phase now .i feel its a good thing only if u have a guy good with electronix , besides that , megasquirt has a forum dedicated to it self .

we use megasquirt 1 , the interface is brilliant , u have 2 to choose from and everything is opensource so u can modify how u want to use it

i have some exp wit motec and trijekt , i didnt find the trijekt interface that user friendly and motec was good but restricted compared to megasquirt .

besides all these for a first year team i feel something like a motec or trijekt would be better since u wont be that grt with troubleshooting and running out of time .

first year teams should invest more time in dynotesting ( tuning ) rather than building ur ecu

[farides]

Hi guys,
just want to ask, is there any team here have an experience using magneti marelli ecu? Does anyone know the advantage of using this kind of ecu compared to the others?
Maybe you could share it..
http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[emerjer]

I know that the Firenze Team in Italy use Magneti. But they probably don't use these forums. Check out their website and give them a hollar.

[Grant Mahler]

hahahahahaha

I do not think you want to go with a magnetti marelli system...but that's just because I like it when companies use different colors for different wires. I like it when companies give you wiring diagrams, and answer the phone when you call. I like it when parts are easy to find and systems are easy to maintain.

But if you don't trust me (and you have no reason to) ask any Ferrari mechanic...

[farides]

Grant Mahler, why you said like that?
do you have an experience of using magneti marelli?
Is it hard to maintain the system?

Actually, im just doing a survey regarding various types of ecu in the market. I want to know which one is better and what is the advantage of using it.

hope you guys could share your experiences..
http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[js10coastr]

The Magnetti Marelli system, like most Italian things, is quite attractive but not very reliable or easy to work on.

[Grant Mahler]

The only experience I have is that we ditched the entire system and wiring harness on our f40. We built our own, and it works. And the f40 system is well known for unreliability and difficulty in assessing problems.

From what I saw - and i came in at the end of that project, many many many of the stock wires were black. Also, we switched out all the stock sensors because we couldn't get accurate enough, repeatable curves for many of them.

Again, I have limited experience, you should ask a Ferrari mechanic. I have spoken to several and they all hate magneti marelli.

I think you will find few teams with magneti systems on this board - this is far from their target market, and I have not heard of any teams outside of Italy using any of their systems. Plus (no direspect at all to the teams from Italy) but they had issues getting their car running right at West, and they had it running well back in Italy. This suggests that the system may not be all that user friendly. They were smart kids to not be able to figure out what went wrong.

[Brian Barnhill]

We are looking into purchasing a new AEM unit from Scott at SET, but am having difficulties getting in touch with him.

Does anyone know if he is still supplying the system? I have past experince with AEM systems and would like to use one again on this year's vehicle.

Thanks,
Brian

[Eric Schieb]

Warning: personal Motec bias

When comparing ECUs also consider things like things like input resolution (Motec 12 bit), quality of main fuel map interpolation, injection timing control (assuming you are going sequential), integrated boost control, ease of configuring for almost any sensor, ability to use MAP/exhaustMAP for the engine load axis . . . .

FWIW, I have seen the lambda step (not be continuous as a function of RPM) during a dyno run on a low end system.

Eric Schieb
ex-FSAE
FSAE judge when race schedule permits
Motec dealer
www.ElectronSpeed.com (http://www.ElectronSpeed.com)

[Grant Mahler]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Eric Schieb:
Warning: personal Motec bias

When comparing ECUs also consider things like things like input resolution (Motec 12 bit), quality of main fuel map interpolation, injection timing control (assuming you are going sequential), integrated boost control, ease of configuring for almost any sensor, ability to use MAP/exhaustMAP for the engine load axis . . . .

FWIW, I have seen the lambda step (not be continuous as a function of RPM) during a dyno run on a low end system.

Eric Schieb
ex-FSAE
FSAE judge when race schedule permits
Motec dealer
www.ElectronSpeed.com (http://www.ElectronSpeed.com) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you think that the lambda jump was a result of a low end system or a poor VE table?

And, FWIW, it appears to me that some of the lower end systems perform all the functions that you mentioned better than some of the high dollar systems - take a look at the PE or the eMS-PRO, then take a look at TEC3R. Just my opinion though.

[Eric Schieb]

GM:&gt;Do you think that the lambda jump was a result of a low end system or a poor VE table?

You could change the VE table to change the jumps. For example if you had all of the numbers in a row the same the mixture would be continuous but a function of airflow. If you tried to fix the mixture, you could achieve your goal at points but the transition between them would not be smooth. We shot for an average.

GM:&gt;all the functions that you mentioned better than some of the high dollar systems - take a look at the PE or the eMS-PRO,

Let me start with saying that that list was off of the top of my head. The beauty of the Motec is its configurability. If you can dream it . . . Need to control a variable length intake?

On the "better than some" part of your statement, this does not surprise me too much. Heck I still like some of the features that WERE available in Calmap 1.1 from about '95 that I haven't seen since. The question is who makes the best overall package for your use (including price and support and weight and reliability and . . .). Maybe the answer for you is build your own for the design wow factor and cost. The answer for my team was an ePROM emulator in an ECU from a Pontiac Sunbird 2.0L turbo. And we built a nice GUI.

Now for specific items on the list. I will have to revisit some of the systems you mention. I thought Motec was relatively unique in things like a VE based on iMAP/eMAP. I always thought that this would be good for a FSAE turbo team. After you go sonic iMAP probably doesn't rise but eMAP probably does reducing flow. And pre-choke that eMAP is much more likely to be a function of elevation than the iMAP. As elevation increases your compressor ratio will have to rise for the same boost.

A serious Motec benefit that I did not mention in my list is a hardcore data analysis package. Want to keep track of engine configurations in a excel spreadsheet and have those values show up in your data?

Eric Schieb
ex-FSAE '88-'92
FSAE judge when race schedule permits
www.ElectronSpeed.com (http://www.ElectronSpeed.com)

[Grant Mahler]

Not at all questioning your tuning abilities, but isn't that VE change simply accel/decel enrichments? Or am I missing something...

Alright - I hear you on several of those features being built in.

I agree wholeheartedly with your "best overall package for your use" philosophy.

For your information, and the sake of the board, most of the functions you mentioned are either built in to MS2/MS2-e/or eMS-Pro - things like datalogging and analysis packages are available (for free).

Also, tuning off of iMAP,eMAP or some derivative thereof is a relatively trivial firmware change for the eMS-Pro or MS2/E. While some may balk at changing firmware, the question is - would you rather have all these functions built in, and a very confusing and hard to use interface; or would you prefer a fairly simple, intuitive interface, and an open source firmware which allows you to change the things you need with little or no hassle.

In the interest of full disclosure, several weeks ago I spent most of an hour on the phone with a Motec rep, trying to get the scoop on why someone would choose their product. In my mind, he utterly failed. I am familiar with MS1-e/eMS-Pro and I indicated as such to him and asked why I would want to switch to his system. He could not give me a compelling reason - he could not list any feature or support that Motec had over eMS-Pro - and he was an ass about it. He was arrogant, rude, and relatively ignorant.YMMV.I have since been a Motec opponent.

[Eric Schieb]

GM:&gt;isn't that VE change simply accel/decel enrichments? Or am I missing something...

Can you be more specific? The VE changes that I was referencing were primarily a function of RPM and were at a fixed throttle opening (WOT).

Regarding your call to Motec, I can pretty much guess who you talked to and I wholeheartedly agree that the conversation is an issue.

1) (US based assumption) If you called Motec West, try Motec East and see if you get a better fit. Or better yet, call a dealer. (Does DIY Auto Tune have better customer service for specific MS applications than Bruce Bowling?)
2) Realize that almost anyone you call at Motec PRIMARILY uses Motec products and is unlikely to be able to make many good comparisons with products that have a very different market. It is like ringing up a one of Apple's Safari designers and asking him why Macs are better than Ubuntu or Fedora Linux. If you are a hardcore technical guy, you will fluster him in a hurry.

In any case I am happy that you found a product that suits you (eMS-Pro). And it has the bonus of low initial cost.

Eric Schieb
ex-FSAE '88-'92
FSAE judge when race schedule permits
www.ElectronSpeed.com (http://www.ElectronSpeed.com)