Amod conversion

[Neal Stanley]

I have a question for you FASE teams. Why do you not build your cars the idea to convert it to an Amod once the season is over. This would make the car more useable or saleable. Amod is very wide open class so there is not many things that would have to be done. Just to list a coule of idea's. One, make your wheel base to the Amod rules. This little change would make you car more driveable and easier to maintain a higher speed when on course. Two, make your engine bay and mounts, so you can easily install a larger motor.
Neal Stanley

[Neal Stanley]

I have a question for you FASE teams. Why do you not build your cars the idea to convert it to an Amod once the season is over. This would make the car more useable or saleable. Amod is very wide open class so there is not many things that would have to be done. Just to list a coule of idea's. One, make your wheel base to the Amod rules. This little change would make you car more driveable and easier to maintain a higher speed when on course. Two, make your engine bay and mounts, so you can easily install a larger motor.
Neal Stanley

[SkidRow]

Seems like an interesting idea worth of further thought,especially for teams with not so much workshop space for car storage or strong finacial backing.Would you be kind enough to post links to rules for A-Mod ,competitor's vehicles,event photos etc,for those of us who have not searched this topic in depth?Thanks for posting here.

[Neal Stanley]

For autocrossing Amod's are the fastest thing out there. You will not see very many at local solo events, but they will be there at the nationals. Pictures are hard to find, You could start looking at the SCCA web site, under Solo then cars and rules. I am sure that there are FASE teams that have run up agaist a good Amod and have been blown away.
Neal

[mtg]

The reason why teams don't build cars to meet the SCCA A-Mod rules are:

FSAE courses are much tighter than SCCA Solo 2 courses with more corners and less straights

This in turn, favors designs with much smaller track and wheelbase dimensions, as well as focusing the design more on transients and cornering.

If the FSAE courses looked more like SCCA courses, then FSAE cars would probably resemble A Mod cars more closely.

Here's a picture (http://wwwcgi.umr.edu/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/formula/imagefolio2.3/imageFolio.cgi?action=view&link=2003%20Events/(8-11-03)%20UMR-UMC-UIUC%20Kart%20Track%20Challenge&image=AWhittle.JPG&img=&tt=) of AWhittle's A Mod that he brought to a UMR drive day back in '03.

[Neal Stanley]

I was not aware that the courses where that much differant than SCCA courses. I fact I thought FASE used the SCCA Safety Standards on your courses.
Neal

[Garlic]

The courses are quite different, and a car like you propose would suffer greatly in the events as a result (Unless very cleverly designed to be re-configurable). There's your answer...

[jack]

If we thought Amod was cooler than FSAE we would build Amod cars. but the fact is, Amod cars look silly. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

also before there was an FSAE solo class, it might be worth converting an old car or two, but now that there is an FSAE solo class and other FSAe cars to race against, why bother?

[Neal Stanley]

Just a thought to consider making your car so it could easly be change to run in the Amod class. I am aware that there is a class for FASE cars in SCCA, but you run to FASE rules, not much fun. Amod rules are wide open, all most (run what you bring). Jack most of us do not run cars because they are cool, we try our best to run them because they are fast. Last year at the nationals the winning Amod was 3 to 4 seconds faster than the fastest of the FASE cars.
As for wheel base, the wheel base for a Amod is 72 inch, I am not sure that the little bit longer wheel bases would really hurt you, even on a tight course. I know it would be easier to drive, allow you to package the weight lower, so on. I know you people are sharp enought to figure it out.
My thought was that if it could go to the Amod class then you cars just maybe sellable.
Neal

[SkidRow]

Full on aero A-Mod cars are way more impressive IMO.Why are they stupid looking?They do provide freedom for aero studies and open up a whole new field of research that most FSAE teams never get into: aerodynamics.If I was a customer buying an autocross/hillclimb special & could afford it ,an A-Mod style car would be in my trailer.If I was a spectactor travelling to watch such an event,I would be dissapointed to miss A-Mod action.

[SkidRow]

Found some winged A-Mod car photos and videos on the net but could not find a clean photo showing the powertrain/CVT arrangement on such a Phantom style car.If someone has found some,would he/she be kind enough to post the links?Thanks

[VFR750R]

An Amod car converted to FSAE would not win the FSAE event and our cars are designed to compete in FSAE first and foremost. I don't think any team (but I could be wrong) would voluntarily compromise their FSAE chances to make a dual purpose car. Would a team modify post FSAE a car for Amod, yes, but all the compromise would be to create the Amod car not the other way around.

By the way it's FSAE not FASE.

[awhittle]

http://www.ncs-stl.com/mike/Mike_Gateway_Spin.wmv

http://www.ncs-stl.com/mike/Movie.wmv

That is a two speed manual

[Neal Stanley]

Pictures of mine during constuction.

http://www.lightningprollc.com/?page=gallery&gallery=im...r=autocross%20racer/ (http://www.lightningprollc.com/?page=gallery&gallery=images&folder=autocross%20racer/)
Hope this works, not only do my fingers not work well, me and computers don't get along.
Neal Stanley

[Steve Yao]

Besides the compromises in making an AM for SAE or an SAE for AM, there is a chicken-and-the-egg issue to consider. No university would allow the sale of a student-designed-built-prototyped vehicle to the public. Despite the fact that anyone in racing understands the risks and signs their lives away anyway, the possible liability is of monumental concern to any university legal council.

On the otherhand I could see the intellectual property of an FSAE car design and manufacture being sold off, to be signed off by a PE in the employ of the client, and manufactured for sale. ..exactly as the Marketing Event theorizes at the competition.

[MalcolmG]

I think the wheelbase issue is a big one, minimum wheelbase for FSAE is 60inch, and as far as I know most teams run very close to that number, so going to 72 inches would be a pretty big step. I was watching a DVD of a past Aussie comp and some cars had difficulty getting around the tight hairpin on the course, which cost them dearly. Adding 20% more wheelbase would make this even more of an issue, not to mention I'm sure it would slow you down considerably through the tight slaloms and on the skidpad tests.

There's a saying many of you would have heard before; "a tool designed to do more than one job does the jobs half as well as a specialty tool" (or words to that affect), and I think that's very true. You would struggle to be competitive in FSAE, you'd struggle to convince the design judges that having a 20% longer wheelbase was a good idea, and then you'd have a very unsuccessful car to try and sell to someone who wanted to autocross it. I imagine there wouldn't be much other than the chassis, suspension, and possibly bodywork, that you'd retain from it anyway, as you'd be running a larger engine, probably some sort of forced induction so power would be much higher, meaning the drivetrain, cooling systems etc would need replacing, and any aero work you did on it as a FSAE car would probably need changing to suit use at higher speeds.

BTW I think this is the link you were trying to post:
http://www.lightningprollc.com/?page=gallery&gallery=im...r=AutoCross%20Racer/ (http://www.lightningprollc.com/?page=gallery&gallery=images&folder=AutoCross%20Racer/)

[Chris Boon]

I must agree with Sey, these days with the over-supply of lawyers any injury caused by a modified Formula-SAE car could turn your small profit from selling the car into a big loss.

It was a good idea that could have worked some ten years ago but these days people have to be so careful. The extra wheelbase etc that would be needed to fulfil AMod regulations would also be a severe compromise.

Chris

[SkidRow]

Mr Stanley you've got PM.

[conekilr]

Personally, I find it more fun to see how close we can get to the A-mod cars at natioanls. FSAE is becoming much faster each year. At the divisional at Heartland Park Topeka last weekend with old tires We were only a second or two off of an A-mod. This is not to say that this car/driver or class is slow but we are becoming A-mod competition as far as bench racing goes. After watching Erick Kohler and Nick Roberts switch cars a few weeks ago and listening to their comments I would say that the times between these two classes would be significantly smaller if we coupled UTA's aero performance with our low speed mechanical grip. I'm not saying that these two schools are the best in any way or that it is as easy as bolting on wings. Regardless, it is safe to say that both types of cars are incredible examples of engineering.

[Marshall Grice]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> if we coupled UTA's aero performance with our low speed mechanical grip. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

read: if UTA used tires sized for max grip. Seriously, how much more would a 7" carbon rim weigh vs. what they run now?

[conekilr]

Haha, ya we've asked the same question but I guess they have their testing?

[Mike Cook]

"Dr. Bob, how come you don't run 7's..."
"Well, how hot do your tires get....There you go"

[JagLite]

I do like your design Neal. How about more information on it? Snowmobile engine? What did you do for the uprights? Shocks? What is the weight? Dimensions? Are you going to make a body or leave it naked?

And what a shop! Are you an aircraft mechanic?

As others have posted the course designs for FSAE events are very narrow, tight, and slow compared to a typical SCCA autocross. A typical A-Mod car is too big to be competitive at an FSAE event. However, a car like yours could very well do great as it looks like it is smaller than many A-Mod's. An A-Mod car designed similar to an FSAE car with a more powerfull motor, and longer wheelbase could be a killer at the SCCA Nationals. Say a Kawasaki ZX1400 engine.... Yeah!

Any FSAE car surely would be a contender for the FTD at any SCCA event where they can really show the speed and agility they have. But with only 600cc, they could not match an A-Mod car. Drop a bigger, stronger engine in one though...!

And some enterprising student may design (on his own time of course) a car with the goal of selling the plans to those of us who build our own for autocross. Uh, but an afordable to build design, not a full custom fabricated car that will cost $20K! Carbon fiber tub, milled aluminum uprights, etc. I liked the FSAE designs better when they had a more realistic price goal in the premise for design competition.

I see that a company in China will soon be exporting a motorcycle engine race car that is built along the lines of your car Neal. A slightly larger version of an FSAE car. It may be a popular race car if it is designed and built well. About time someone starts selling one. Suzuki built a prototype but I don't think they feel the market is large enough to support it. Could be right there, only so many of us nuts want a car like that. So we build our own.

[Garick]

A Mod also has a minimum weight of 900#...
An unmodified FSAE Car can compete directly in A mod if it meets FSAE rules.

[Neal Stanley]

Jaylite thanks for the kind words about my car and yes I do work in aviation. I have run an Amod for around 12 years and this car is my attempt to go to the nationals and not be embarrassed. To answer a few of your questions, it is a 1000cc RX1 motor and at the lower boost settings it is well into the 200HP range. It uses a draw thru system with water methanol injection. The uprights are homemade using Honda spindles in frount, VW based in the rear. Shocks are from the rear of a motorcycle and are totally adjustable (they work well). Weight is below the min. so ballast is added. As far as the body is concerned, I will only add to the car what the rules require, which is side protection from the waist dowm.
Wings, yes I will end up running the 20 sq, feet of wing. Wings are under development. But first I want to get the mechanical grip to max before I test with wings. But there is a wing under the seat in the tunnel (Liebeck LN109A). This wing in ground effect produces the cooling air for the radiator behinder the seat, plus lots of downforce.
I thnk that the real key is the CVT, set up properly the car really gets with it and best of all the car is always in the right gear. Your teams should look at the Yamaha 600cc 4 stroke snowmobile engine.
Not all autocross courses are big, most clubs don't have the big parking lots to run on. I have driven cars with the shorter wheel bases and longer wheel bases and there is a point that the wheelbase is just to short to carry real speed thru some corners, the car is just to tail happy. I do know that an optimal 1.6 - 1 wheelbase is used on a lot of racing cars. I am not saying that you need to go there, but I do feel that most FSAE cars could benefit from a longer wheel base. Also my speculation is that most of your drivers do not get enought wheel time to really learn to handle it, lots of spin outs. You do need to build what will win or what's the point.
Jaylite, I also agree that I liked FSAE better when they had a more realistic price goal. Engineers should learn to design within the price cap given, that's the way the real world works.
Garick, I do not think that a well done FSAE car can compete with a well done Amod, just take a look at the SCCA PAX.
Neal

[Garick]

yeah, just meant that the rulebook says they can be classed there. That looks like a fun ride you've got there, BTW.