Teams from India [Archive] - Page 3

ftorque

09-12-2013, 05:28 AM

It's been a long time now, and the new outlook of the forum pages looks good and refreshing.
Thanks Akhi for your reply. Wished you had a better German event.
And to Sachin, Happypranav and all.
$10k or Rs 6,00,000 lakh(Indian Rupees) is more than enough to make a good FSAE vehicle.
Transportation will depend at that particular moment as the exchange rate keeps fluctuating. Its pretty bad right now, maybe some teams will pull out of the coming
Italian event.
Money is never enough when you keep insisting on using imported cool stuff on your vehicle.
And don't tell me you don't get all parts here in India.
You get all your required mandatory things. Dealers do import the safety gear for you also.
Slicks, adjustable shocks, quick releases, master switches., everything.
You just have to search a bit more than you do now.
If after your searching you still don't find it then send me a PM.
I would like to clarify before itself, because i usually get mails from teams asking directly for answers, like Claude commented before, that i am a professional racer with a reputed team and not a dealer. So i will gladly help out people who have done their own hard work and research but not the kind you find on the Facebook forum.
And to all FSAE fraternity. A new team is doing a 2 year FSAE project. Their car is already done. Now its 7-9 months of testing, breaking, re-building and testing again. For the very first time i found such students here. They have used most of the parts available here in India and didn't bother importing. We are checking the weight next week. Its a 600cc powered steel space frame. Before people speculate i am an Alumini for the same college.
And for people who want to know. The last time i checked there where 174 teams registered for the Student Formula India Chapter(SUPRA). Boy, is it going tough Virtual round next week.

Sachin

09-13-2013, 03:19 AM

jlangholzj

09-18-2013, 01:41 PM

Well my university is not in India.Its an indian university in Dubai :) I have searched for master switches and found the ones i need in the us market.the shipping cost are way beyond our budget.Also finding parts for FSAE in Dubai is not easy as you think.Most of our parts are imported from outside because you cant find them in dubai. And thats why I ask for help from the Indian teams in India so that we can purchase parts from india and bring them into dubai at a much lower cost than shipping from US o elsewhere.:)

could you please elaborate on "the shipping cost are way beyond our budget"?? I just looked at to ship a killswitch from the USA to Dubai is ~$60USD. Yes I know that's not "cheap" but it certainly isn't outrageous either! Add to that a shipping/handling fee of ~$5 and you're still not that bad. Is it the TIME that you require it in? (ie we need it tomorrow so i need to overnight it?). If that's the case then of course it's going to be expensive! I've paid much more for smaller parts to get overnighted (usually out of my own pocket) so we could get it when we needed it!

OR

Is there some kind of foreign import tax that you have to account for that's expensive in your country. If thats the case then I ask how much is it? We've ordered parts from itally, germany, canada and all over. I've never once been taken back by the cost.

I've yet to have anyone (from india or otherwise) that has the "its too much to import" problem clearly and concisely tell me (or anyone else that I'm aware of) the logistics of what's "too expensive". Could someone (ANYONE!) please fill me in here? Am I missing something or just crazy???

Big Bird

09-20-2013, 09:22 AM

could you please elaborate on "the shipping cost are way beyond our budget"?? I just looked at to ship a killswitch from the USA to Dubai is ~$60USD. Yes I know that's not "cheap" but it certainly isn't outrageous either! Add to that a shipping/handling fee of ~$5 and you're still not that bad. Is it the TIME that you require it in? (ie we need it tomorrow so i need to overnight it?). If that's the case then of course it's going to be expensive! I've paid much more for smaller parts to get overnighted (usually out of my own pocket) so we could get it when we needed it!

OR

Is there some kind of foreign import tax that you have to account for that's expensive in your country. If thats the case then I ask how much is it? We've ordered parts from itally, germany, canada and all over. I've never once been taken back by the cost.

I've yet to have anyone (from india or otherwise) that has the "its too much to import" problem clearly and concisely tell me (or anyone else that I'm aware of) the logistics of what's "too expensive". Could someone (ANYONE!) please fill me in here? Am I missing something or just crazy???

Good questions John.

Answers anyone?

ftorque

09-21-2013, 04:54 PM

jlangholzj

09-25-2013, 11:42 AM

Considering the current rupee to dollar scenario of $1=Rs.65.
If i want to import a used engine in India.
Issues:
Import of a used engine in India is prohibited by law.
If you do, then pay 110% of the cost of the engine as penalty.
Then show a letter that's say's it's for educational purpose and all that.... then you end up paying $125-150 as the penalty.
Then pay another $150-$200 as custom duties and other paper work before you get the engine out of the custom office.
That's for an engine costing $900-$1300 and imported from the US of A.
The cost of shipping it to India would be about $300-350.

simply another good reason to find something local then! To bring this into perspective though you're only looking at the additional cost of the customs duties and penalties. Our r6's that we've bought here state-side have all been ~$1200 shipped. Also if you're forced to import something, see if whoever you're buying it from can split it up into smaller packages (like splitting the engine up). Sometimes this can be cheaper than shipping the whole thing as freight. Of course...if you do that you're going to need someone technically competent to put it back together! Time vs Money.....

And regarding the logistics stuff.
Consider a team going for a competition in Italy.
A minimum quote would be of $8000 by a proper professional logistic guy. To and Fro journey with pick-up and drop to the event. Going by flight and return journey about 2-3 months later by ship.
But the twist in the tale is when teams are still making the vehicle and forget that the logistics guy had given them a date for leaving, which is about 15 days before the event.
Then in the end it's expedited shipping. Shooting the quote to $10000-$12000. No wonder some teams pulled out of this year event.

this seems more like a team planning issue than everything else. Mostly because I think ALL teams tend to struggle a bit with it! It's just an added element that you need to factor into the equation, much like if we ever get a car (that we feel comfortable enough) over to the UK/Ger competition. This isn't anything "foreign" or "indian" specific....just a general struggle for everyone! Even we have to consider this going to competitions in our own country (albeit cheaper). Budgeting out time, fuel cost and other things to get there on time.

The other problems may be psychological. The students are plain afraid of importing stuff of the net.
I know teams who imported stuff and didn't receive what they where shown pictures of.
They are also afraid to go face to face with the custom officers at the airports like Mumbai(which is really a task in itself because of the stringent security norms there).
And it's just plain simple to let someone get the stuff for you or go to the neighboring shop and buy it yourself than importing it at a risk....!

Reputable dealers. That's all I'll say. Also you have to be careful that you actually LOOK at the technical documents and drawings that are associated with what you're buying! Many companies have hundreds of variations of the same product....that would be a lot of work to create thumbnail pictures for all of those when they're already accompanied by a technical drawing! Just remember that sometimes its better to not get something out of the "bargain bin" when you're unsure what you're going to get! Also once something gets imported are you REQUIRED to come pick it up at the customs office? This seems rather silly to me, I'd expect it to go through customs and then be given to the local post-service and have them ship it to whatever address its sent to.....so you're loosing me on the customs part of that.

The last point you brought up is something that I've faced MANY times exporting services and importing goods in industry. The company I worked for was constantly looking at alternative designs and choices to create a higher profit margin on our product. I can't tell you how many quality studies I've helped out with looking for a new vendor or company to provide a service for us.

ftorque

09-26-2013, 01:32 PM

jlangholzj,
Its easier to let the component be shipped to India and we go to receive it at the customs office and get it out by paying a few bucks.
Than letting it come to our home address with a proper fine slapped on it(legitimate or not, we have to pay).
And thanks for the advice of dis-assembling the engine and shipping it here.
About a 100 teams have qualified for the Student Formula Indian Chapter after the virtual round.
Maybe they can take this into account with a lot of them already in the process of getting the 600's via the world wide web.
But the way you, big bird and Claude commented previously, i was expecting much more from your last reply.

Big Bird

09-26-2013, 07:54 PM

Hi ftorque,

I saw my name mentioned in your last post, and not quite sure what it means. No mind, and my apologies if any offence was taken above.

Firstly, thank you very much your ongoing efforts to explain to us all what is going on in your local formula SAE community. I have learnt a lot from your writings, and it seems you are experiencing a different formula SAE project than the one I have.

I will speak for myself, but I believe I might also be speaking for John and Claude and others who contribute to this conversation in saying that we are not here for the sport of giving you a hard time. I take an interest in this thread because I genuinely want to see Indian teams enjoying the same sort of experience as I did when the project was going well for us. On the flipside to that, I am seeing a large number of your teams experiencing the kind of disappointment that I have also seen when the project has not gone well. Done well, this project is the most rewarding thing I think you can ever be involved in. Where else do you get the opportunity to work with a bunch of your mates to design and build a racing car at someone else's expense?

Now there are many things that I should be doing with my life, and I know I would be a lot better off if I spend more time trying to make money and less time on these forums. I would also do a lot better for myself if I didn't give away all of my advice for free - although I might be in for a rude shock as to how many people might want it if I put a price on it :)

We might ask a few difficult questions, but that is only because we are trying to break through some of the self-imposed barriers that you might be facing and that we may have faced ourselves in our own experience. I think the single greatest step that any team can take is the one when it decides to take full and complete responsibility for the destiny of the project. That is to say, that every roadblock and hiccup and problem that you face is a result of a decision that you have made, and therefore you have the power to fix it. It can be difficult to take on this philosophy as it involves finding a way to accept responsibility but without falling into a culture of blame. But to think otherwise is purely to lead the destiny of your project upto chance, and in something as complex as this the only outcome will be failure.

Now I can't count the number of times that I have read or heard comments from your fellow countrymen that this project is much more difficult in India than it is for the rest of us. It troubles me if that is truly the case. It troubles me also that implicit in this statement is the message that they are not willing to take full responsibility for the destiny of the project, and that comfort is being sought in factors outside the sphere of their control. And once I have moved beyond my troubled handwringing, I genuinely want to know what some of these difficulties are in case I have experienced it myself and that I might be able to help. Sometimes that help might be of a detailed operational nature, other times it might be to point out that with a bit of rethinking you might not have a problem at all. Surprisingly, most problems in this project fall into the latter category.

Keep up the good work ftorque, your comments are well appreciated.

Cheers,

Geoff

jlangholzj

09-27-2013, 12:49 AM

I'm not quite sure what the last few sentences in your last post were about either. I saw them earlier in the day and have been trying to mull them over a bit. Through the day I finally figured out what you were getting at.

Since like Geoff, I am genuinely interested in helping out I'll re-address a few things. Firstly in my previous post the use of the word "you" may have been a bit misplaced...I was not trying to address YOU (ftorque) personally...rather the YOU on the other side of the computer (any one who may be reading this in search of guidance).

The eloquent response that you saw from geoff is the difference between a much older and a much younger man's experiences. (okay geoff you're not that old....but I had to try and sneak a joke in somewhere to lighten the mood) What I mean to say is that he's a little more suave about the approach that I was :)

Now I can't count the number of times that I have read or heard comments from your fellow countrymen that this project is much more difficult in India than it is for the rest of us. It troubles me if that is truly the case. It troubles me also that implicit in this statement is the message that they are not willing to take full responsibility for the destiny of the project, and that comfort is being sought in factors outside the sphere of their control. And once I have moved beyond my troubled handwringing, I genuinely want to know what some of these difficulties are in case I have experienced it myself and that I might be able to help. Sometimes that help might be of a detailed operational nature, other times it might be to point out that with a bit of rethinking you might not have a problem at all. Surprisingly, most problems in this project fall into the latter category.

Keep up the good work ftorque, your comments are well appreciated.

Cheers,

Geoff

This little excerpt from geoff's post cannot be any more true. It also explains why I can come across as a giant (insert demeaning word here) to some folks....even guys on my own team!!!....again....forgive my youth! Part of the reason why my previous response may have contained a bit more...erm....grit...is because of the standard that I try to hold my teammates to and other engineers. We're not stupid...none of us are. But if you saw one of your buddies doing something wrong, wouldn't you say something to stop him/her? Some engineers may be more "gifted" than others in certain regards but if you're here...trying to make a difference...trying to build something better...something great....there's no question that you're a smart fellow.

I don't see this competition as just another way to spend time or "build a racecar" and....although that is a large portion....the real part of it is making us a better engineer. There's really no other way to say it really. Also without a little nudge here and there....a little constructive criticism and sometimes another little shove, we'll be stuck in our own ruts. Kind of like if you've ever got you're car stuck somewhere. The rut of "it can't be done" is what we're trying to help push some of these teams out of. There's potential...there's not doubt there....I've been there, done that as have most of the students here on the forum.

I'm going to go ahead and quote something i read just recently that was addressing the different kinds of friends that you have in your life....this particular passage is from "the mentor"

......the mentor is also someone who can give you constructive criticism when he sees something not going so well in your life. Perhaps you’ve gained a bit of hubris with your new promotion, or he catches you flirting with the barista who is very much not your girlfriend. Many a man will shrink from confrontation, but the mentor brings it up, because he ultimately wants you to be a better man. The mentor may not always be your favorite fellow in the world, but he’s as necessary, if not more so, than anyone else.......

That's the reason why I'm here. I'm also assuming its the reason why others are here. Take out "man" and replace with "engineer" and you've got yourself a winner. I don't claim to be any sort of a mentor...heck I need some major mentoring myself....but from a students perspective AND a fellow FSAE member, when I see something that could have been avoided had I been guided by someone....even just a little bit.....I can't help but say something.

Truly, I hope that in some way shape or form my job will let me volunteer at the competitions here in North America. There's just so much to this competition that makes it awesome that I can't even try to explain my experience....but those who have shared it will know what I'm talking about before I even say a word.

ftorque

09-29-2013, 10:59 AM

Wow! English is really a funny language.
Big Bird & jlangholzj, I didn't take any of your comments in a bad way.
What i meant to say was that you asked a question regarding the problems we face here in importing/customs.
I did a bit of research. Called up the custom offices and also got a few current quotes for logistics to Italy, just to give back a proper reply.
After posting the same, i expected more of a discussion on it, than what was written. It's just that. Hence i wrote the names.
You(funny word) and many other out there want to know what problems we are facing here.
Actually, there are not many.
That's why i expected a reply asking for some more in-depth into our FSAE scene. I would be glad to reply to everything.
I have posted earlier also stating that the majority of stuff is available here. This may hamper the chances of some teams going out there and coming up with a statement during the inspection saying that, "This is not available in India". I want to help out such people. Even you will get an understanding of our market.
I saw the same problem at the virtual rounds of the Student Formula India event held last week.
There were question ranging from ohlins adjustable suspension, wilwood brakes, Hoosier tires., etc availability in India. I can say they are not available, unless some team is selling them to you. But i can say there are guys who can manufacture fully adjustable spring and dampers for you(if you get the calculations right), brake rotors as per your requirements, steel braided brake lines as per your requirements., etc.
Yes they will be a bit heavier than the other options available, but then you can always compensate it somewhere else and they will be definitely cheaper.
And there was the classic question of the 600cc engine in India? Hardly 15-20% of the 100 teams are interested in it.

Thats all! So kindly ask whatever you want to know about Teams in India. And i and other's will reply.

(And why is Marc Marquez winning? We all know why Vettel is!!! Suddenly both F1 and Moto GP feel so boring....!)

ftorque

10-19-2013, 09:52 AM

Just finished reading the complementary copy of Racecar Engineering on "Formula Student 2013". Just Out!!!
Page No. 31 makes a really good read. Titled "SAVE FORMULA STUDENT" and writing by Mr. Calum Douglas, its a must read for at least "Teams from India" gearing-up for the coming event.

Claude Rouelle

10-19-2013, 10:54 PM

Here is the reality, whether you like it or not: there are 2 kinds of people in racing; those you make victories and those you make excuses.

You need to chose the category you want to belong to.

Use you R & I; your Resources and your Intelligence. Every student, in every country, has a bit of each.

So 2 solutions: give up or zip it and go to work.

Claude Rouelle

10-19-2013, 11:00 PM

ftorque

10-20-2013, 02:46 AM

Here is the reality whether you like it or not: there are 2 kinds of people in racing; those you make victories and those you make excuses.
You need to chose the category you belong too.
Yes, things can sometimes be more difficult in India....
Use you R & I; your Resources and your Intelligence. Every student, in every country, has a bit of each.
So 2 solutions: give up or zip it and go to work.

Yes Claude. Right sentence. Use your resource and your information. Not somebody else.
So 2 solutions: give up or zip it and go to work. It applies to all teams.

I remember an Indian team going for an FSAE competition(Australia maybe), with pneumatic gear shifting mechanism(with paddle shifters as i remember) developed for them by a company and students having no idea with how it was made. They weren't allotted much marks for it.
Funny thing how much of it is actually implemented now-a-days. Judges????(All please.)

JulianH

10-20-2013, 04:28 AM

ftorque,
you are mixing some stuff... The article talks about "everything has to be made by students". I personally think that this is not a good rule, just think about the possibilites that would be missed due to that rule, we would be back in the 1990s with bad manufactured soapbox cars. In my opinion it is good that engineers learn how parts are manufactured, what possiblities are out there, but using a mill or a lathe is not what is going to happen in your professional life... (In fact rule A6.4 relativizes the manufacturing part of A6.1...)

What you are talking about: "They had a shifter that they didn't understand", that's really wrong. If you buy parts, you should know what they are doing, why you have them in your car and why not a different system.
Concerning your last sentence: I think all the judges can quickly see how much of the car is engineering by students, that is quite easy... Our 2013 car is probably one of the "worst enemy" of the "It was all better in earlier days" group. Yes, it would have been utterly expensive and yes we had partners that manufactured some parts and helped us with their tools (wind tunnel, torsional test rig, damper test rig, autoclave, test track...). But: We engineered probably more parts on the car by ourselves than 99% of all teams, we learned a lot while designing it (and basically that's what Formula Student / SAE is all about...) and we organised everything by ourselves: All the money, all the help... Of course we are in a comfortable situation as the only team in a very rich country, no argument here. Yes, Formula Student is not fair, when it comes to resources and I think it is not possible for an Indian team to compete with Stuttgart, GFR or Munich but that's racing. (At least that is the racing part of the competition...). I think in the end, the phrase at every award ceremony: "You are all winners" still is valid, and people should stick to it.

Cheers

Markus

10-20-2013, 07:52 AM

The article talks about "everything has to be made by students". I personally think that this is not a good rule, just think about the possibilites that would be missed due to that rule, we would be back in the 1990s with bad manufactured soapbox cars.

...

But: We engineered probably more parts on the car by ourselves than 99% of all teams, we learned a lot while designing it (and basically that's what Formula Student / SAE is all about...) and we organised everything by ourselves: All the money, all the help...

While I agree with your main point Julian, I would be careful with statements like above. There are plenty of well manufactured and engineered cars done almost purely by students. There are also plenty of cars almost purely engineered by students. It's good to be proud on what you did but remember you're not alone. :)

JulianH

10-20-2013, 11:24 AM

Markus,
I didn't want to be rude or arrogant about that :-) But as our car was singled out as "the enemy" of classical Formula Student, I had to post this ;)

Of course there are a lot of student-engineered cars but the number of teams with own engines/motors (which were also criticized...) is still limited. That's basically the main difference, the rest is probably not different compared to the others but that doesn't change my point.

Soumya

12-26-2013, 02:27 AM

@all Indian competitors who have posted/are following this thread

Have you heard regarding the seminar of Claude, Pat & Steve in India?

The seminar is being held in Kolkata, India. Between 28th Jan-1st Feb,2014.

156

Please write to contact@deltainc.net.in if you are interested.

jlangholzj

01-02-2014, 01:26 PM

I think in the end, the phrase at every award ceremony: "You are all winners" still is valid, and people should stick to it.
Cheers

We're all competitive in nature...I believe...so striving to be the best is what makes the teams on top...where they are!

However at times we tend to forget that this is all a learning experience! We're here to learn and grow as engineers. There's a reason why companies see FS/FSAE on a resume and you're automatically shuffled to the top. Sometimes we just let our aggressive nature to get in the way :) You made a compelling point though!

happypranav

01-14-2014, 10:49 PM

Congratulations to Indian teams who successfully registered for FS Germany, FS Italy Event and FSAE Events.
Big number this time, many new teams.
Wish you all best of luck.

Pradeep

01-17-2014, 05:04 AM

Ashir

02-07-2014, 10:55 AM

I hope that the Indian teams will put up a good show at FSG 2014.

But apart from the on-track performance, there is an off-track issue which I hope the team will come well prepared for - Camping. Given that most of us (Indians) have no previous experience of camping it becomes quite a challenge to organize the campsite and have the team members in a good state of mind for the competition. My first camping experience during FS UK 2009 was not pleasant...basically it is was a bit too much of 'new experiences, sights and sounds' in one go.

The camping experience can be improved by a bit of fore-sight and planning. I hope the teams will take this into account - it will make the event more enjoyable.

Maybe the Indian teams can pool together resources and buy the camping stuff together.

Good luck !

Yeah! Most of the new teams are not aware of camping. I would recommend new teams to search on internet about camping in fsae. Do plan about tents and capacity. Try to send them off from India with car as it would be costlier to get from Germany. And if budget allows, do get some barbecue and large tents for having some common area for fun and frolic :D

Claude Rouelle

02-07-2014, 11:52 AM

Just a consideration that I would like to diplomatically share with Indian teams.

In the last few years I have seen many European FS and North American FSAE teams having been super kind with Indian teams guys at FSG, FSUK, FSAE Italia and in FSAE Japan. They lent tools, advices, help, even offer food and shelter in their camping because for example Indian tents were flooded. That is good and that is what the FS / FSAE spirit is about.

But I started to hear Europeans and North American teams being annoyed of not seeing year after year any improvements in Indian teams logistic and organization and being "under pressure" to provide the same help again and again. There is a limit of help that Indian team should count on. They have to learn to help themselves and be better organized and independent.

One of my best boss in racing said to me one day that a) people who do not work are the only ones who do not make any mistakes so it is "natural" to learn by making mistakes (in fact you learn more from your mistakes than your success).... BUT b) in racing you are not allowed to make once a given mistake; second time you are out. The parallel goes for concept, design, manufacturing, test execution, development of the car AND logistic and organization of any FS / FSAE team of any country

People will cease offering you help if they see your inability to help yourself.

Ashir

02-07-2014, 12:07 PM

Just a consideration that I would like to diplomatically share with Indian teams.

In the last few years I have seen many European FS and North American FSAE teams having been super kind with Indian teams guys at FSG, FSUK, FSAE Italia and in FSAE Japan. They lent tools, advices, help, even offer food and shelter in their camping because for example Indian tents were flooded. That is good and that is what the FS / FSAE spirit is about.

But I started to hear Europeans and North American teams being annoyed of not seeing year after year any improvements in Indian teams logistic and organization and being "under pressure" to provide the same help again and again. There is a limit of help that Indian team should count on. They have to learn to help themselves and be better organized and independent.

People will cease offering you help if they see your inability to help yourself.

Yeah very true!
The new teams (many this year) are unaware about what kind of problems they can face off track which will have effect on their performance.

This statement has emerged from personal experience. We went FSG last year and among us only one had been to UK earlier. We thought we were well prepared. We had arranged tents with help of ex team member and a team for delivery to campsite. But the funny part was "None" of us knew how to actually put up small tents! This ended up in fewer space, a lot of time wasted, and uncomfortable nights!

Result: Poor concentration, fatigue, irritation, etc..

Claude Rouelle

02-07-2014, 05:48 PM

Then in that case I come with the obvious question. Why in the hell didn't you exercise the tent mounting BEFORE you went to Germany? If you can't even get prepared for something that essential I can't even imagine your car preparation!

Ashir

02-08-2014, 08:23 AM

We never used tents until we received them at camp site! The member who had been to UK earlier knew only a little.

It was our mistake to not practice before hand! But honestly I would say none of us actually expected it to be challenging. We could go through instructions but it was in German! and we were also embarrassed to ask for help. But to avoid such situation for new teams I shared "One" of my experience.

Any person who need help regarding knowledge of facilities available in Hockenheim are most welcome to PM or Skype me or ask here itself!

Ashir

02-08-2014, 11:10 AM

I have been told over and over by the best FSAE/FS Faculty Advisors in the world, that the best FSAE students are not always the ones with the best GPA’s. They are the ones who are in the lab (shop) after midnight building & assembling. They are the ones who do not have girlfriends, or a social life, or spare time, or extra money. They are the ones who legitimately get to list FSAE on their resumes!

I would like to share my another experience! Please don't mind @my team mates.
Each of the point mentioned in above quote was fit for our last year team. (and the alumni teams )

1. We had avg gpa ~ 7-8.
We managed to get this GPA because of what we learnt while designing our car (practically) was being taught at course (theoretically).
Not high GPA because we were less focused at course! Concepts were clear but lack of practice i would say.

2. 90% of the year we were sleeping after 2AM.
We had to sleep so that we do not miss class for attendance! (from 8am to 5pm with 1hr lunch break). 75% attendance compulsory, no ifs no buts. Result: Most of sleep completed in class itself!
10% was during exams which we would not like to mess with.
No holidays for us! We rather took is to our benefit of full day to FSAE! :cool: Eve night of holiday was full night working.

3. Girlfriends - None or if anyone had, was at second priority. Social Life: once a while we used to join our out of team friends but was very rare. We would party in between among ourselves all the time :D Spare time: didn't know what was " spare time " until after the competition was over!

4. Extra Money: Each person spent approx. Rs30-40000 (~$600) just for making car. Our tickets and lodging extra!

Yes like the general idea of Indian teams, we didn't do good. (rather didn't did anything). Well this is another story.

But the response we got after returning:
1. Faculty Adviser though supportive (not much helpful but supportive) reported that we didn't do hard work, were easy going and wasted time!
2. While we represent college at FSG, our classes were missed and on returning we had to attend 100% of remaining classes to prevent getting an X grade ~ repeat the subject in summer holidays or next semester.
2. Our small workshop, full of scrap material (steel angles and tables were readily available :D), 50 yr old abondoned machinery, etc which we couldn't "touch" as they were school property (bleah-.-), taken from us and restricted (with a "concrete wall") further small space which would fit either - team members (20ppl) or our completely assembled Car with tool rack (no space for actually assembling it ironically).

Nice Motivation from our college!! And if it not had been our passion, the team would have been ceased long before!

BUT here we are yet again fighting the odds and making another car "learning from previous one".
Though we (my ex-colleagues) are not in the current team as we have one semester (current) for industrial training project, yet we have started working on car for our year, with target of "testing, testing, testing..." at top priority. (Last year was first time we managed to finish our car 1.5 month early before it was supposed to be transported.)
I guess I may sound like "making excuses, whining etc" but I just wanted to share this and remove this experience from my mind. :eek:

This thread got hijacked a little with stories of unsafe motoring in India. I challenge all Indian FSAE students right now to break the mold. Start wearing a seat belt. Start being the one to wear the helmet and eye protection on your motorcycle. Set the example for others to follow. Eventually they will follow, and you will then be looked upon as the Visionary leader(s) who changed a culture.

Safety must carry over into FSAE. Safety is your number one concern in FSAE. NUMBER ONE! You want an example? Google up ‘1955 Le Mans crash’. Look at the video. A Mercedes racecar went into the stands at that race. It was travelling well in excess of 125 mph (200 kph). It killed around a hundred people (the official number varies from 80 to 120). At the time, the Le Mans track was the original track (built in the early 1900s) designed for car speeds of 40 mph (65 kph). In 1955 racecars were exceeding 190 mph (305 kph).

My top priority(and hopefully my team mates' and fellow teams') is safety in our daily routine, driving, walking, working, etc. But the general mindset of people in India is somewhat understood with this piece of news:

Times of India - NCAP Test on most popular cars in india (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/business/india-business/Popular-small-cars-Alto-i10-Nano-fail-crash-test-Global-NCAP/articleshow/29668142.cms)
Team-BHP - Video of Test of each car (http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian-car-scene/147299-indian-nano-alto-figo-i10-polo-fail-global-ncap-safety-test.html)
NDTV News - Reactions of Car makers
(http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/tata-nano-other-indian-small-cars-fail-independent-crash-tests-477550)Road safety Step by Local traffic police (http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2014-01-11/noida/46089982_1_road-safety-week-traffic-rules-pehle-aap) - "Pehley Aap" ~ First you (with respect). Not much of affect on careless people, but its the start I guess.

I have been driving a lot this semester while i go to Maruti-Suzuki in Gurgaon (National Capital Region, Near Delhi) for industrial training. I must say, except for few "show off" drivers, most of the people have patience, safety (might be due to strict traffic laws here), understanding, no fights for small "oops" moment when my car hit theirs at long traffic jams, when no $$$ involved of course. The best thing which I observed, and I used to follow earlier too, was that the cars were actually switched off at long traffic lights, even if a car/bus could fit easily between their car and the car in front of them. (1 major step to check pollution).

*Sighs*
Quite a long (may be useless) post!

Jay Lawrence

02-09-2014, 09:02 PM

Ashir

02-09-2014, 10:54 PM

Just FYI - there is no "our year." There is your team. You don't disappear from your team for a year just because you have a semester of industrial training. If you're not able to be at the workshop, do other things like design or management or static event preparation. Don't just drop the project and wait for "our year."
I am sorry for writing it that way. We could,t do design and management for them because we are in our work place from 8Am to 6pm. And if we are late by even 1 main in arriving or leave 1 main early, that makes us absent for that day. In college we have certain percent attendance so few days can be relaxed but here its just like job, you miss out one day and god knows what all you have missed cause company won't stop.
But yes whenever I m free I contact them for sharing information and if any help they require.
Regarding static, I can't do cost report as it will require me to be present with them. Not presentations as when this even will take place, I would be giving presentations to out professors about what we did in industry.

But as I said I won't say no for what they give me if I can do it in time constraints.

I do website designing as my hobby. So I proposed current team, that I can do it easily without any problem. But this year a person from computer engg is taken who has designed pretty well and way better than me.

Ray19

02-12-2014, 12:45 PM

After going through some of the latest posts over here I thought of giving my 2 cents related to camping. Just to make things clear even though this is targeted to help the newer teams especially from places where there is a lack of knowledge about camping culture (like India), I think it would be great to hear about some of the general camping stuff from other established teams too. Also, by no means is my list a comprehensive guide as I myself have only been to two FS competitions and I am expecting other more experienced people to chime in and give their valuable advice and add to my list.

1.Tents- The first thing that comes to one’s mind when one thinks of camping but I have seen it being criminally overlooked quite a few times. Buy them at least a month before shipping so that you can practice putting it up and checking for any defects so that it can be exchanged in time. Also even though some might consider it luxury, I believe a big main tent is necessary for every team. All the storage can be done in it especially if you are a team travelling from a far off place like India with all your huge amount of luggage (wouldn't want them getting lost or getting wet if it rains). Cooking supplies can be kept and briefings and any informal meetings can take place there.

2. Lights- At least a couple of lights are necessary as there is no provision for lighting in the camping area unlike what most people might think.

3. Connectors- Make sure you have the right connector for the European power ports that they give you. The specifications are usually given in the event handbooks. Also carry at least 3-4 extensions with multiple ports so you don't fight over how to charge so many phones and laptops.

4. Food- Not something you can carry from home but have a proper plan for it. You can buy food from nearby supermarkets but you need to learn to barbecue. I would suggest a few barbecue parties back at home so that you get some cooking experience and the team bonding always helps. Also have a proper plan for the barbecue grill, whether you decide to buy it at the competition or if you take it from home or even rent it.

5. Sleeping Bags- Another necessity for camping that you do not want to miss out. Buy them along with the tents in bulk so that you get it for cheap.

Some Camping Do's and Don'ts:-

- Do not litter the campsite, usually you get a garbage bag for each day so use it.

- If you get to the campsite early just set yourself up so that you are comfortable but don't spread your tents out too wide as there are going to be other teams that will come over later and will need to set up their camps.

- Try and socialize around the campsite as this is when most people will be free and relaxed.

I'm sure I am forgetting some finer details but these are the ones that sprang to my mind when I thought of my experiences. Again, needless to say I hope more experienced people add to this list so that it helps out the other teams. Also let me know if you disagree with anything up here.

Claude Rouelle

02-12-2014, 02:14 PM

Ray19

02-12-2014, 03:54 PM

@Claude
That was just a general point I was trying to make. I know we have that problem here in India but the educated youth today is much more responsible which includes most of the teams that go to the competitions. The point was just a gentle reminder.

Ashir

02-12-2014, 07:46 PM

Sid,

"Do not litter the campsite" Yep you are so right!

Just came back from India where I gave a 5 day seminar with Steve Fox and Pat Clarke.

Most India streets sides are nothing elses than huge trash bins. No wonder some Indian big cities still have cholera.... And why "westerners" sometimes look Indian down

Better not export that habit!
Yeah that's one of the reason that makes me very embarrassed when I have conversation with foreign tourists. But now, as Sid said, the educated people do take care.You will find almost all colonies, institutions, factories, malls etc clean. Also if anyone tries to litter, people have started reacting and forcing him to pick it up and use dustbin. It is required for "everyone" to do their part.

Pradeep

02-16-2014, 02:59 AM

@Claude

Just because one metro station of Paris smells like piss, I do not call the entire Paris a stinking toilet !

Your statement of 'most Indians street sides are hugs trash bins' is very inaccurate, simply because your sample size is way too small to generalize.

Pat Clarke

02-16-2014, 05:43 AM

Sorry Pradeep, but there we have another weak Indian denial. We are sick and tired of them!

I notice you don't deny the situation, rather you attack Claude because you think his sample is too small. Play the ball, not the player!

I was in India with Claude and we did a whole lot more than look out our hotel window!
We were in Delhi, then drove to Jamshedpur and drove a lot in and around that city. We then went by train to Kolkata, where we stayed, first in the city and then in the supposed upper class suburb of Salt lake.

I have also been to several other cities in India since my first visit in 1992 and literally without exception, the place is a pigsty!

Sure, there are nice clean places, but they are always places where people are paid to clean up! That doesn't count!

The average Indian should pick up their own crap after themselves.

Again sorry Pradeep, but that is how it is and little parables about shitty underground stations in Paris changes nothing!

Oh, and pretty well the whole of the Paris underground stinks anyway =] Or it did last few times I used it.

Pat

Silverbolt

02-16-2014, 06:27 AM

Hello there fellow Indian teams. May I know from where did you guys buy tyres and wheels?

Pradeep

02-16-2014, 08:31 AM

Dear Pat,

We (Indian students participating in FS) are well aware of the many challenges faced by our country, of which cleanliness of our cities (small percentage of India) happens to be one.

In fact, your's and Claude's quality of calling a spade a spade is one that I admire - and it is required to improve the quality of Indian FS cars and quality of Indian engineers. Criticism regarding the car, team and engineering skills no matter what language is used is fine. The same cannot be said when you talk about my country.

If you are going to use words such as "tarsh bin" and "pigsty" to describe my country, I am not going to take it lying down. Forgive me for using the following example, but how would you feel if someone called Australia the land of prisoners and whores ?

I have said this before also - I am really thankful for the time and effort you, Claude and Steve Fox have put in to improve the quality of Indian teams but it really upsets me when I read statements describing my country in poor light.

As this is not the first time this issue has cropped up, my (rhetorical) question is - why can't you (westerners) keep the focus on FS and engineering related issues ?

Pat Clarke

02-16-2014, 05:11 PM

Pradeep,

I'm sorry if I have offended you, but....

Again, you are playing the man, not the ball!

Pat

Silverbolt

02-17-2014, 04:56 AM

I don't think this is a place to debate whether India is a trash bin or Australia is a whore land. I would appreciate if a fellow Indian team mate could tell me where did you get your wheels and tyres from.

Claude Rouelle

02-17-2014, 11:41 AM

Silverbolt,

I am sure that more people would be interested to answer you

IF

1. You would introduce yourself!

2. You would tell us what YOU have already found as far as tire ans rims gathering

Claude Rouelle

02-17-2014, 11:44 PM

To Pradeep,

Chose the fights you can win….

Did you spend enough time in other European cities to make your own comparative opinion?

Do you prefer the hygiene of the Netherlands where you live now or the one of India?

In the last 6 or 7 years I have visited Mumbai, Pune, Coimbatore, Bangalore, Hyderabad, Chennai, Delhi Nasik, and Kolkata (just to name a few). I spent at least one week in each of these cities. I also spent dozens of hours and thousands of kilometers driving or being driven, most of the time being wide awake and observing amazing and surprising sceneries. I was also lucky to interact with many different Indians, young and old, male and female in universities, research centers, hotel personal, market ( I fell in love with Delhi spice market), companies, test facilities…you name it. All of them made themselves very available to answer my multiple questions about history, culture, food, politics, religion, spirituality, industry, agriculture, manufacturing, software business, energy, mentality, casts, Cashmere, Pakistan conflict, relation with China, teas, food recipes difference from one region to another, their opinion on the Slum Dog Millionaire movie, the origin of marvelous scents in flowers and food and horrible plugged and inefficient sewer system, weather, ideal time to visit such of such region … all about fascinating India which inefficiency, inability to communicate, defeatism, bureaucracy, corruption and lack of leadership never stop irritating me… but a country I more and more love to discover at each visit.

Is this enough data to have a sufficiently objective opinion?

But 2 clear things emerged from my conversation and my observations.

1. Besides a few rare exceptions, streets are dirty. They are huge trash bins. Period. In fact India is the dirtiest country I ever visited and I have visited a lot of them.

2. Indians have the hardest time to revisit their past, admit their weaknesses and/or mistakes, resolves interpersonal conflicts. In other words they are very good about “brushing it under the carpet”. In fact, most of the time, their only refuge is denial. No jobs for psychologists or psychiatrists there.

See the relationship between the 2?

Wait a minute... Isn't this forum about slip angle, camber variation, usefulness (or not) of inboard dampers, push or pullrods and rockers, yaw inertia and critical damping?

Well, what about the fact that in this particular forum we all agree that the main reason in poor efficiency, generally low education, desperately slow progress of FS / FSAE Indian teams … is first and foremost cultural? And that is why despite the best efforts of all the non-Indians members of the Formula Student / FSAE community we all agree that it will take a lot of time to solve these issues and that ultimately only Indian people can solve India problems?

And what if I tell you that I see a clear relation between the dirty, littered streets of India and the fact that (except 1 recent exception… and still) Indian FS/FSAE cars are the most unprepared, unfinished and (sorry no better words) filthiest cars? Don’t you see the relationship?

I am sorry Pradeep if with these words I offended you and your Indian friends and if you feel I have attacked your pride. This is not my goal. Not for the inhabitants of a country I fell in love already long time ago.

But I know two things; One, you cannot solve a problem until you realize you have one. Two, Indians do not admit they have one until you use strong words and sometimes you make their issue public.

I believe that with, unfortunately, a few bruises on Indian ego here and there, the direct (call it provocative if you want) method that I and other design judges use, whether you like it or not, is working,

Because I see a few better Indian cars, still way to go, but better, coming to FS/ FSAE competitions this year.

There is hope.

Pradeep

02-18-2014, 06:31 PM

Dear Claude,

If I had only chosen fights that I can win, then I would not have never participated in, failed again & again and eventually won a Formula Student event.

Let me point once again to the fact that none of the Indians above nor me have denied that government-owned public spaces & streets in Indian cities need to be a lot cleaner. I pointed out your small sample size as not being representative of India, because 72% of Indians live in villages and not cities/towns like the ones you mentioned above.

However the issue is not really about your 'objective' analysis of the sanitary situation but gross generalizations about India (inefficiency, inability to communicate, defeatism, bureaucracy, corruption, lack of leadership) and Indians (have the hardest time to revisit their past, admit their weaknesses and/or mistakes, resolves interpersonal conflicts). Really, is India & Indians the only country in the world with these problems ???

As everyone agrees 'only Indians can solve India problems', it automatically follows that discussions by non-Indians should stick to slip angle, camber variation, yaw inertia etc on this public forum.

You claim to love India and yet you keep constantly projecting India & Indians in poor light. A low-tech example: Should man who loves his fat wife, 'objectively' criticize her in front of everybody? Justifying that it is the only way to make her reduce weight and it is for her own good?

Your encouragement & good advice have helped Indian teams Claude, not the provocations. Your provocations are being tolerated. None of the Indian students have been offensive to you because (as you must know very well from your travels) in Indian culture one is taught to respect elders (the same culture that you conveniently claim is the reason for poor efficiency and low education). Do not mistake this show of respect for meekness.

Your constant 'provocations' have gone too far, too many times. Enough!

To end on a light note,
of course, there is hope - If not in this life and then in the next one ;)

bob.paasch

02-18-2014, 07:56 PM

I'm going to hijack this thread and take it in another direction. It may be provocative. Some people may be offended. That is not my intent.

In my experience with German people, they try to be very fair. We see this in the Formula Student Germany registration process. FSAE registration for Michigan is "first come, first served," and a good dose of luck is involved. Registration at Formula Student UK is by a selection committee, based on country, team past success, and diversity considerations. FSG uses a registration quiz, with every team having an equal chance to register. I realize a few slots are reserved.

So for FSC 2014, there are 12 teams from India currently registered. This is more than from any country other than Germany.

Of those 12 teams, only two have had even moderate success. Orion Racing has participated at FSG 7 times, finishing endurance once, with a high placing of 44th out of 76 teams. They are ranked 277 in the world. Vellore VIT has participated in 4 FSAE/FS competitions, with a high placing of 20th out of 42 at FS Italy, and a world ranking of 292.

Of the remaining 10 teams, 4 have never competed at a FSAE/FS event. Their chances of success are not good.

The remaining 6 Indian teams have amongst them participated in a total of 21 FSAE/FS competitions. Cumulatively, those teams have scored points in 8 dynamics events. That is 8 events out of a potential 5x21= 105 opportunities.

This seems to me to be a huge waste of resources. Granted, they are not my resources, but there are 10 Indian teams shipping cars, parts, tools and people to Germany with little chance of actually getting out on the track. Would that money not be better spent on organizing and running a Formula Student India event? Use that as a qualifying event, with the best two or three teams from FS India going abroad to FSUK or FSG? That is the model both FSAE Brazil and BajaSAE Brazil use. They hold regional competitions in Brazil, and the top 3 teams go to the North American FSAE and BSAE competitions.

Or perhaps the FSG organizers should use a system like FSUK, where the teams are selected by a committee. Past success could be a criteria. Teams 200 km from Hockenheim could have preference over less successful teams 8000 km away. I feel bad for teams like Wuppertal, Cottbus, Ulm, Kempten, Berlin, Karlsruhe and our friends from TU Graz that likely will not participate at FSG this year.

I am aware of the argument that the students on the bottom teams still learn. I'm sure they learn a lot. But I would argue that those teams are operating at such a low level that their students would learn just as much at a FS India competition as they do at FSAE, FSG and FSUK. Crawl before you walk, walk before you run, run before you race. You don't need to travel 8000 km to learn to crawl.

Claude Rouelle

02-20-2014, 04:17 PM

To Bob Paasch,

It seems there will be a Formula Student India in January 2015. An effort by the students for the students, hopefully different than the discreditable Supra. Wait for confirmation from the organizers.

To Pradeep,

1. I have no problem to handle private or public criticism about my own country (which has, just as an example, a regrettable disgraceful colonialistic history) or about myself (ask Z :) ) I can also handle criticism made about me privately or publicly if they just come with rational and objective facts. At the end it is not about tolerating or respecting criticism that I or other do; it is about respecting your self by making significant progress. Remember that the #1 goal of FSAE and FS is acceleration of engineering development skills. If any Indian team do perform well at such event they demonstrate those skills and that is the only thing I wish.

2. Whether you like it or not, whether you approve or disapprove my approach, why do you think I (and other engineers like Steve Fox and Pat Clarke who with me just spent 2 weeks in India free of charge to help Indian students) spent so much time trying to help Indian team if I would not think you are the country you needed the most and I would not like being in India. You can disagree with my methods but not not question my desire to help. About the provocative methods just let me tell you this: I have learned that in India you won't get fruits unless you seriously shake the trees (or the establishment or the pride if you will) I never thought the need to do so in any other country.

3. To make it short and productive; I will reconsider my statements about India dirtiness and about the many progress still to be made by Indian FSAE / FS teams if with your former university performs well at FSG. Specifically a) Pass Tech, b) score 80 points in design (just above 1/2 points), c) finish all dynamic events. Is Manipal up for the challenge?

Pradeep

02-24-2014, 02:27 PM

Manipal is up for the challenge.
But I have made my feelings clear and they are not conditional. I have said enough on this topic now, so I will stop.

As for the FSG registration, I am curious to see how the FSG committee reacts to this. And hopefully we will have a proper FS India 2015, so that teams don't have to travel 8000km for a good FS experience.

Ray19

02-25-2014, 01:00 PM

@Bob Paasch
I do partially agree with you there. Again it is not my intention to offend anyone with this post.
I think a lot of people must have cringed at the thought of seeing 12 Indian teams participate in FSG 2014 and I can completely understand that. In fact even I was one of them. And I agree that when teams like TU Graz, Ulm and Karlsruhe miss out in place of teams that might not even run, it is not ideal. I remember being very excited to check out all the top teams from the world when I was going to FSG and I was very disheartened to learn that I would not be able to see Monash there at the competition in 2013. I’m sure a lot of the other people from over the world would be sad not to see big teams like TUG not compete against them there and it hurts FSG. But the only ones I will blame if we have Indian teams that don’t clear tech or don’t run is the FSG organizers. I was ecstatic to see that from FSG 2013 the teams would have to give a video of a running car a month or so before competition which would ensure complete cars at the competition but it seems something went wrong there. I saw teams (both Indian and others) that were nowhere close to clearing the rules let alone have a running car and in one case a team actually didn’t have a car to show even though they were registered and had a pit. If the organizers would have been a little stricter I don’t think we would have had that case. Even this time as I see some of the Indian teams that are going to take their cars to the competition I see a lot of them that will not clear tech barring major changes and as hard as it is for me to say this, I personally don’t expect more than 4 running Indian cars at the competition (I hope I’m proved wrong). I just hope FSG can be strict enough with their SES and Car Video requirements this time around else it will only have itself to blame.

Again I don’t intend to offend anyone including FSG as I’m sure they must work really hard to put up one of the most amazing engineering design competition that is organized but I hope they put their rules into practice better this time around. As for the Indian teams, I hope FS India can bring the proper FS experience here to India and make sure we have quality teams in the future that can challenge the best.

P.S. - These are solely my thoughts and do not represent those of my team or University.

Thijs

02-26-2014, 12:17 PM

Tobias, could you perhaps shed some light on whether the FSG committee is happy with the way the Vehicle Status Video system currently works?

Not scoring points in the acceleration or skidpad event is not a perfect indicator of vehicle status in all cases, but it's probably safe to say that for many teams that don't manage to cover 75m at comp under their own power, one might have been able to predict this from their VSV or lack thereof.

Below are the acceleration and skidpad DNS rates for the last four years:

2013, VSV used
FSC: 13%, FSE: 30% (acceleration)
FSC: 23%, FSE: 40% (skidpad)

2012, VSV introduced
FSC: 21%, FSE: 22% (acceleration)
FSC: 29%, FSE: 28% (skidpad)

2011, no VSV:
FSC: 19%, FSE: 48% (acceleration)
FSC: 22%, FSE: 45% (skidpad)

and 2010, no VSV:
FSC: 21%, FSE: 47% (acceleration)
FSC: 20%, FSE: 47% (skidpad)

I really like the idea of the VSV system, for the obvious reasons people mentioned in previous posts, but I would have expected it to be more effective.
The downward trend in DNS rates doesn't seem that steep. For the FSC skidpad, it hasn't gone down at all. And I would consider the low finishing rate of FSE'10 and FSE'11 a result of the competition still being young.

Sorry for going a bit off topic btw

Thijs

Claude Rouelle

02-26-2014, 02:23 PM

Suggestion: Make the video a bit more demanding (longer distance, a short lap of let's say 500 meters circuit, a skip pad simulation, car with bodywork (and wings if designed with it) fitted, maybe video showing a bit more car details so that the design and manufacturing quality and the basic safety features can be appreciated (....? with the risk of the entry being rejected ?) and make it being delivered 3 months ahead of the competition.

That will be a natural selection. Teams that are not prepared or that could come with a huge design flaw that would prevent them to pass technical inspection won't put their car on the plane. Teams will concentrate on reliability and reasonable design instead of unreliable and irrational innovation in the concept phase; they will be better project managers learners.

If the FS/FSAE experience is about learning how to apply engineering methods and be prepared for an engineering job I believe it is also about about learning how to deliver on time and on target a car that works, not necessarily very quick (especially the first year) but which is safe and functional.

Some of the design judges I have worked with found this idea a bit too controlling but I simply believe that the FSAE / FS experience does not only occur at the competition. It starts at the student's workshop. This 3 months video rule would simply replicate the time constraints that exist in the everyday industry job.

I bet at least 10 teams will go from the waiting list to the accepted list.

I believe that having a car running 3 months before the competition is a minimum anyway if you the team wants to have hopes of something reliable.

JulianH

02-26-2014, 03:02 PM

I partially agree with Claude. The video could be stricter, but it shouldn't be too hard.

For European teams, 3 months before the first competition (Silverstone in July) would mean a "fully functioning" car at the begin of April. That is not going to happen, and I think it is not necessary to have a reliable car.
Our 2013 car had its shakedown on May 10th or so, and we needed about four weeks to get it up to speed. Maybe two weeks of performance testing and we won the UK competition.

I think that a strict video like "If your car is not running on date X, write a report why it isn't. Update every two weeks until it runs". If it doesn't run two weeks before the competition, you are out.
Additionally I would invite the first one or two teams on the waiting list (with a proven running car) so that they could use the pits of a team that does not have a car running. I remember FSG 2012 when there was a team (I think it was Ostfalia) with a perfectly running car in the FSG forum and another electric team with basically a space frame in the FSG pits...

Thijs

02-26-2014, 03:16 PM

Claude,

I was thinking along the same lines, but a little less extreme in terms of timing.
Although I fully agree that it would be desirable for teams to have 3 months of testing, the main goal of the VSV should be to minimize the amount of teams on the waiting list.
My guess is that with the current level of the competition, demanding a running car 3 months ahead would reduce FSG to a 30 team competition at most (probably too optimistic).
That would rob a lot of teams that are capable of finishing dynamic events of a nice opportunity to learn why 3 months of testing would have been better than 1.

Claude Rouelle

02-26-2014, 06:02 PM

I cannot understand how a team can commit to such a project without a minimum of 3 months (ideally 5 months) of testing. In 2012 Orion racing, a modest team from India (no offend to them for the "modest" word) started their test for FSG on March 20th; they showed me their (pretty well organized) running sheets and logging book (unless they BS me and I don't think they did); if they can do this many should be able to do this also. Orion did pass tech and finished all 4 dynamic events.

It is my clear conviction that it is a total lack or realism and preparation to imagine making a car like a FSAE on a 10 to 12 months project without at least 25 % of time dedicated to testing, breaking, failure analysis, redesign and retesting, whether there is a mandatory 3 months or 3 weeks video or not.

Claude Rouelle

02-26-2014, 06:10 PM

Julian H

" For European teams, 3 months before the first competition (Silverstone in July) would mean a "fully functioning" car at the begin of April. That is not going to happen"

Why not? Seriously why not?

" I think it is not necessary to have a reliable car" For a team disciplined and experienced like yours but I do not think your (excellent) team is representative of the average team and certainly not the new, inexperienced teams coming from abroad.

Claude Rouelle

02-26-2014, 06:11 PM

I cannot understand how a team can commit to such a project without a minimum of 3 months (ideally 5 months) of testing. In 2012 Orion racing, a modest team from India (no offend to them for the "modest" word) started their test for FSG on March 20th; they showed me their (pretty well organized) running sheets and logging book (unless they BS me and I don't think they did); if they can do this many should be able to do this also.

It is my clear conviction that it is a total lack or realism and preparation to imagine making a car like a FSAE on a 10 to 12 months project without at least 25 % of time dedicated to testing, breaking, failure analysis, redesign and retesting, whether there is a mandatory 3 months or 3 weeks video or not.

SomeOldGuy

02-26-2014, 06:58 PM

I think video proof of running would be a great addition to all the comps.

Here at WWU we have no access to our shop or the CAD resources during the summer months, so cannot do serious work until school starts at the end of September. Because of this we are restructuring our design/build cycle to a 2 year cycle, while still producing a car every year. With the current system that we use and a video 3 months before comp that would be a tough deadline. Running at the beginning of February if going to Detroit. So a 4 month design/build cycle for everything that needs to happen after the goal setting and ideation, which currently happens during the summer months.

Last year at the Detroit comp there was a warning that teams that failed to submit a design report by a cutoff date would be yanked from the comp and that they would start getting teams from the wait list. I hope that this is actually done this year to allow teams that are ready to go to comp the opportunity to compete.

Thijs

02-26-2014, 07:12 PM

Two things:

1. We can talk endlessly about whether teams should test for 1 or 5 months, and I'd say that 1 is too little, but 5 months out of 10 leaves very little time for recruiting and building a team, coming up with a design philosophy and a well thought out concept, and actually designing and building a car.
But either way, if a team spends their 3 months of testing on 'breaking, failure analysis, redesign and retesting', they're not going to be able to make a video showing a car that's race ready at the start of those 3 months, are they?
So a vehicle status video 3 months before the competition still seems a bit steep to me.

2. I'd say the whole FSAE experience serves to let students learn valuable lessons about project management by letting them try it themselves (rather than being told how to do it) and see how well their approach works by competing against others who may have chosen a different approach.
I fail to see how excluding them from even taking part in this competition for not adhering to a specific schedule (while still coming up with a working or even winning car) helps in achieving this learning goal.

I value the idea of the VSV, but not as a tool to 'force' teams to plan their project in a certain way. Let them learn the hard way what works and what doesn't.
Rather, I like it because I think it is a real shame when the extensive resources that the organization of an event spends on facilitating a venue for dynamic events are not fully taken advantage of.
Especially when teams on the waiting list want nothing more than to take advantage of them.
I actually think that the current rule looks pretty good. I just hope it will be enforced more strictly in the future.

BTW, I don't mean to trivialize kicking teams off the list, it must be a pretty lousy job. But I imagine a lot of the teams look at it this way.
Like I said, I'd like to know what it looks like from the organizer's perspective.

Claude Rouelle

02-27-2014, 12:22 AM

Look guys you see it the way you want but the goal is not to design and manufacture a car. The goal is to design and manufacture a car which runs without any reliability issue and if possible that runs quick.

I have built many race car and finishing one (well it is never finished) for a given date (a PR or a sponsor deadline for example) required a lot of energy and I was so exhausted that I did not find the energy to go testing the next day. I had to stay in bed a few days just to recover from so many sleepless nights. But that was because I was so inexperienced and so unprepared.I wish I would have had a mentor who could have told me to pace my self, maybe to do less sophistication in the design but plan for more testing. Finishing the car is only one chapter. The book has many other chapters to be written. Please don't do the same mistakes.

Formula one team employ 300 to 700 persons and run budget from 200 to 600 millions $. And they still have to face simple cheap parts or big catastrophic failures. How can you imagine that you will build a reliable car (especially a new team) without a minimum of testing? How will your drivers be prepared?

I have seen it and heard it again and again for so many years. 90 % of the time students tell me that the #1 reason of failure to finish endurance is lack of testing.

Thijs has a valuable argument that teams have to make their own mistakes and rules should avoid "controlling" their work organization. To which I would reply that in real life (real life is just after FSAE/FS) there are sanctions if your product does not meet your boss expectations AND is not finished on time.

Let's not forget that this topic emerged because of the issue of experienced and proven good teams which are on the FSG waiting list.

I will again use the Orion example: if an Indian team with less resources in everything (less money, less engineering and race car "culture", less experience, less or even no support from their school, very limited access to machining and lab, a cannot do dogmatic heavy attitude from many of their school teachers and even sometimes from their own parents.... you name it) is able to run car 3 months before the competition and finish all 4 dynamic events, I do not see why any other team couldn't do it.

The guys working with me will tell you; in my company I do not want to hear that it is impossible. I want an answer to the question "what do you need to make it work" and one way or another we most of the time manage to find the resources to make it happen on time and on target. That is why it is so hard to read in the previous post things like "but it is so hard...."

Anyway I wish you to learn a lot and have fun doing it. With or without Video to deliver.

Ray19

02-27-2014, 05:34 AM

@Claude
I think you make a great point about the more comprehensive VSV but I am sure the people from FSG will say that it would involve a lot more work and would therefore not be practical for 125 odd teams. Let us hope it can be done. But even I have to agree with the other guys regarding the 3 month time frame. I know it is ideal but if top teams can do all the testing in 1 months time and make a winning car then they shouldn't be punished. Why should Zurich spend lesser time on its designing just because some other teams are not capable of it! At the end the competition should take into consideration all teams, established, champions or new ones.The method Julian talked about seems more fool proof considering that. But I would say that if any new teams are reading this, if your car is not running 3 months before competition then you rather not come to the competition as it is highly likely you won't have a car that is reliable.
@Thijs
Thanks for those interesting numbers. I was pretty sure skidpad was going to have most no. of DNS's of all the dynamic events considering it is the first event and quite a few teams are still stuck in scrutineering. Again even though it might not be possible, a more comprehensive VSV as suggested by Claude can bring those numbers down.

I would love to hear from Tobias and co. about the ongoing discussion.

Claude Rouelle

02-27-2014, 08:33 AM

Ray19,

Remember that this part of the thread here was triggered by Bob Paasch (Dr. Paash it is your fault now :) ) who asked if it is a good idea to have inexperienced team showing up at FSG with no or little chance to pass Tech and somewhat "taking the place of most experienced team". Therefore the question is less addressed to experienced team like Zurich.

If the FS/FSAE goal is to learn by doing the question is do we offer the young engineering community a lot to learn if they come to the event and then they can't pass tech. It is a reality check and in this sense failing if learning but is it the best way they can learn? Worse; Do we think that a team do learn anything if it comes several years in a row and still do not pass tech?

On the other end we do not want to make it a "if-you-are-not excellent-you-do-not belong-here" Surely not. How would the beginners low budget low experience teams learn from?

Either organizers need to accept more teams or they need to be more selective for first entrants. Or both.

The other question is do the organizers of any event want a different selection method for newcomers or for established teams?

If we want cars which pass tech and which have good chance to finish all dynamic events whether the cars have great design or not, have great performance or not so that the learning experience is great for the whole community a more detailed and sooner remitted video is, I think, a good solution. It invite (and if you want to use the word "force" I am fine) the team to understand the minimum level of car readiness they need to go through. Passing that first test for a new team would already be an achievement. For the moment registering to a competition is not really a prove that you have reached a minimum level of expectations.

In any case the first come first serve registration method is not the best one.

I think a big part of the solution is to encourage Indians to make their own FS event has a natural preselection. And I think that is coming http://www.formulastudent.in/ I am just a bit worry about the definition of the word "soon" in India....

JulianH

02-27-2014, 01:40 PM

Claude,

I think we all can agree that testing is important and should be a big part of a team's plan (at least plan!).

If a team is inexperienced, I think the only way is a two-year cycle. It is simply not possible to design and build a car in 6 months.
I know that I will once again talk about my former team (it's simply the only one I know from the inside). We have a complete (!) new group of engineers every year. Maybe three to four people stay in the team activly designing parts! So nearly everybody that joins our team at the end of September has never designed a part (not only for a car, no part at all in their whole engineering life!). Of course we have a large amount of knowledge and experience in the team, but the guys must learn it either way.

If we count backwards: July is Silverstone, if there is a Status video in the beginning of April, you have to make your time frame to beginning of March (at least for an electric car you have to have a safety margin of about 4 weeks). Running car in March means a finished monocoque at the beginning of February. Which means the moulds must be at our partners about beginning of December. That means CAD freeze mid November.
Our guys just take their first steps in CAD in the last November weeks..
It just doesn't add up. Of course manufacturing time could be reduced but that's another issue.

We can't force everybody to obey a cycle that is important for newcomer teams. Every team should be self-responsible how they manage their time. If they fail Endruance at a lot of events, they should learn for the next year...

I think we can't only point fingers at Indian teams, it is also sad to see a lot of British teams struggeling to have a finished car at their only competition in Silverstone. I know that they have a looot of problems getting money (I talked with guys from Birmingham City at the Autosport International Show, and I think there are a lot of large teams (mainly) in Germany spending more money on travelling then they have for their whole project), but still, having a car ready is the only way of showing sponsors that you are able to do something with their money.

The next point of "Indian teams steal starting positions": Well, if they beat you in the Quiz, they beat you. That's about it. It hurts the competitiveness but that's how the organizers want it to be. To be fair, they should then try to establish a rule that only teams showing up with a car that is able to pass tech and at least try to start all dynamic events are eligible for a starting position if there are other teams on the waiting list. That's the key point with the video.

Claude Rouelle

02-27-2014, 02:30 PM

Julian H

I am with you at 100 %

1. Your backward calculation with frozen drawing by November is the one I would also have. If you add another preliminary 3 months for concept (2 weeks) simulation (2 weeks) and drawings (8 weeks) that means
- the car must be simple
- you need to start the project beginning of August, right after the FSG
- OR you need to work on a 2 year cycle. I also agree with you.

Question (which I guess is specific to your university) I do not see why you can't recruit CAD 1 or 2 years experienced students from the beginning of the project?

2. I am also 100 % with you about the fact that Indian team are not the only "struggling" teams (it is the 12 Indian carts that trigger the discussion) and that if they succeeded the Quiz better quicker, at least fair and square on that part they are simply better than more experienced teams.

3. Whether it is about budget or time what has been shocking me since I am a design judge is the lack of realism, a lack of risk management, a lack (or even absence) of Plan B, and the poor gathering of information about what is required to be on time on target in car design, manufacturing and testing. That is a kind of information that younger students can get from speaking with other more experienced teams). I have also tried to share my concerns and give advices to teams (especially new teams) for many years by email, in this forum, in the video which is on the web, in the seminars or the university courses I teach, in the FSAE/ FS paddock... with little success.

“Human beings, who are almost unique (among animals) in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so” (Douglas Adams)

JulianH

02-27-2014, 02:43 PM

Claude,

it is due to the fact that our project is included into the Bachelor studies of the Mechanical engineers. A large amount of our "full members" is in their third year and they choose this project instead of additional courses. Therefore they have more time to work on it (they only have to "go" to like 5 classes in the semester). It is basically impossible to recruit a larger margin of "younger students" from the first two years that work on the car, learning so that they can use their knowledge in their "real" season. It is better for the 2014 season, with some "freelancers" (people who are not in their third year) really working on the car.

If you have "our" typical schedule with competitions from beginning of July (or even end of June with the ZF Race Camp) up to end of September (Italy or Spain), it is basically impossible to start a project in August (it is also in the holidays and the exam period at least of our university, you can't get anyone working on the new car in that period).

I think every team (at least the succesful ones) has found their rhythm, that works for them. Since 2012, we aim to have a running car on April 15th. We managed May 10th both times. With the official rollout (with driving demonstration) on May 15th or 16th. Both cars needed over a month to be up to speed and about 2 weeks of performance testing. Both cars would have been able to be on the podium at FS UK (gearbox failure in 2012 due to a broken bearing, not an issue that would have come up during testing). That was the only DNF in Endurance since Hockenheim 2010.
If you know how your cars will behave, that is fine, the "big guys" from F1 show us at the moment that a new complex system can even shut down a multi-100million team like RedBull...

Claude Rouelle

02-27-2014, 04:49 PM

Julian H,

"Since 2012, we aim to have a running car on April 15th. We managed May 10th both times. With the official rollout (with driving demonstration) on May 15th or 16th. Both cars needed over a month to be up to speed and about 2 weeks of performance testing. Both cars would have been able to be on the podium at FS UK (gearbox failure in 2012 due to a broken bearing, not an issue that would have come up during testing)"

1. That schedule did work because for you because you did not have any major car or car part to redesign, correct? And you did not have any catastrophic failure because of your team design and manufacturing experience, correct? Lets' say you have a major issue; kind of monocoque cracked, hub or upright to be redesigned and remachined, do you have realistic solution or applicable Plan B in that tight schedule?

2. About the gearbox failure which happen in the 2012 UK "that would not have happen during testing".... If you would have test 100 kilometers more before the UK competition, wouldn't you have been able to spot and fix the problem?

To all,

I will just repeat to you the conversation I have EVERY year at ALL FSAE / FS competitions.
- You did not finish endurance. Why?
- Because we broke that part.
- Why did it break?
- Because of lack of testing. We just needed a bit more testing. Maybe just one more week. If the competition would have been the 15th of next month we would have been ready.
- Really? (in a provocative way, devil advocate style) Don't you think that if the competition date would have been one month later you still have been missing one week of testing? People usually put pressure on themselves at the very end... whatever that very end is.
- ...... (The answer in on the face of the students)
- And, let's say, if you would have been ready on time, and you still would have been able to test one more month can you give me the guarantee that no other parts (than the one which broke during the competition) would have failed?
-....... (The answer in on the face of the students)

If big mess (such as the one RedBull is experimenting now) happens sot the best F1 team, how can a FSAE team be sure there is enough testing? The difference is that in F1 rules restrict testing, not in FSAE/FS.

With the risk of being annoying I will repeat again and again; the amount of time, energy, focus, human resources and budget that a team (especially a new team) spends in concept, simulation, design, manufacturing and assembling should ideally be equal to the the amount of time, energy, focus, human resources and budget that it spends in testing and development (and by the same token on driver improvements).

Put the bloody thing on the test track and run it. Isn't that the goal? You would not like a mechanic spending more time on his toolbox than on his car, correct? I would not like an engineer spending more time on his laptop than on his car and car spending more time on the assembling process than on the test and race track.

Big Bird

02-27-2014, 07:16 PM

I am going to agree with Claude here.

If you do not manage to get a solid two months of testing, it is not the fault of a result of the decisions you made as a team. (Two months is the figure I recommend, but I'm not going to argue that three months isn't a good target either)

You have a known allocation of time, and you have a known allocation of budget and resources. If you do not deliver on time, and on budget, then that is not the result of not enough time or not enough budget. It is a result of the decisions you made as a team.

If a rod end breaks, or a bearing fails, or a switch short circuits - it is not the fault of the rod end or the bearing or the switch, it is the result of the decisions you made as a team.

If you choose to believe that the only way you can be competitive is to over-design, over-commit, over-spend - then that is your decision and you are lining yourself up to learn the FSAE lesson the hard way. Your choice. (It is a lesson you can easily learn by observing others, but if you choose to join the passing parade of FSAE case studies as yet another example in underpreparedness, then that is a result of the decisions you made as a team).

What is the FSAE lesson? It is a lesson in designing, building and testing a product within the constraints of your available resources. Part of the lesson is in having a viable "Plan B". If you don't deliver, then that is a result of your choices, not that the timeline is somehow wrong.

Some interesting points I'm noting in the above conversation (comments in quotation marks paraphrased, not direct quotes):

"We have to get our moulds to our project partners in ......"
- In a competition where students are meant to be designing and building the cars, why do you need to get your moulds to your project partners???

"You cannot design and build a car in six months..."
- I love reading these sorts of comments. They represent someone else's assumed truths, and are a prime target for a challenge. And as an aside, Monash design and build their car in about six months. Note to Australian teams as to what you should be aiming for....

"We have a new team every year, with very little carryover"
- I just wrote about that in my "Reasoning..." thread, perchance. I've seen some great teams with very little experience. Often the teams with little experience are the ones who are fearful of taking on too much. And the teams of "experts" are the ones who reckon they have that special something that is going to blow this competition apart. Give me novices any day.

Sorry if anyone thinks this is off-topic. I do sincerely believe that the arguments presented here over the last few posts is exactly the type of information that will best help the Indian teams.

mdavis

02-27-2014, 07:48 PM

If we count backwards: July is Silverstone, if there is a Status video in the beginning of April, you have to make your time frame to beginning of March (at least for an electric car you have to have a safety margin of about 4 weeks). Running car in March means a finished monocoque at the beginning of February. Which means the moulds must be at our partners about beginning of December. That means CAD freeze mid November.
Our guys just take their first steps in CAD in the last November weeks..
It just doesn't add up. Of course manufacturing time could be reduced but that's another issue.

Julian,

If you had to stick to the deadline of finishing the car in March, would you still make the same design decisions that you do currently? Would you still build a monocoque? December to February sounds like an awful long time to build a spaceframe, even if you have to build a jig, and weld slowly.

BTW, the Zurich car is absolutely beautiful, and is one of the reasons I want to attend FSG at some point.

With the risk of being annoying I will repeat again and again; the amount of time, energy, focus, human resources and budget that a team (especially a new team) spends in concept, simulation, design, manufacturing and assembling should ideally be equal to the the amount of time, energy, focus, human resources and budget that it spends in testing and development (and by the same token on driver improvements).

Put the bloody thing on the test track and run it. Isn't that the goal? You would not like a mechanic spending more time on his toolbox than on his car, correct? I would not like an engineer spending more time on his laptop than on his car and car spending more time on the assembling process than on the test and race track.

Anyone that saw our car in Michigan 2013 and Lincoln 2013 would know there was a vast improvement in vehicle performance in the month between the two competitions. This was not due to any real redesign. We tested the car several times between the comps, ran through 3 sets of tires, and got the drivers good and comfortable with the car. Skidpad times dropped from 5.66 to 5.116. I will vouch for what Claude is saying. With another couple weeks of testing, I have no doubt that our car would go below 5 seconds on the skidpad.

Personally, I agree in principal with the video submission, and with Claude's idea of several months of testing. If a team has a good car as a starting point and good knowledge transfer, it should be possible to design the new car very quickly. If a team has returning members, they should be able to design the new car very quickly. I can't agree enough with Claude/Z that the simple car is the best car. If a team has access to their computers over the summer (assuming a May competition, as Michigan is), having design done by the start of the school year should not be all that difficult. Our team has done it, back when they were competitive with the rest of the world (2007, specifically). Most of the team was back from 2006, and build started sometime in September, IIRC. 2 frames were built that year, with the first one completed and having testing miles on it before the SEF was rejected. The second frame was rebuilt once the SEF (previous version of the SES) was approved, and then testing continued. To me, the other benefit of having a majority of the design done, and fabrication beginning at the start of the school year is that now you have good projects for any incoming underclassmen that want to help with stuff, but don't have a very large skillset.

Just my 2 cents.

-Matt

JulianH

02-28-2014, 11:37 AM

Claude,

yes, in this two years we didn't had an issue that was really catastrophic.
In 2012 we had to change our resolvers on the motors that costed like 3 weeks serious testing. In 2013 our first batch of uprights died really quickly (I think we had three failures), we had some manufacturing issues.
If the problems would have costed more time, Silverstone would have been in trouble.
The problem of 2012: We ran quite some time on the gearbox and changed the bearing right before the competition to have a "new set" in it.. well one of them turned out badly. We changed the bearings overnight and the car could still be running on that gearbox with new bearings every X kilometers. We didn't change anything in the design or the parts (so no "fixing" really occured). So I don't know, maybe yes, a LOT more testing could have prevented this...

Geoff,
I know we have some different philosophies here and there. We build a monocoque since 2008, every year. Every year, two new students are able to learn about designing a quite complex carbon fibre bracket. Everybody that was able to work on that part of the car is a reaaaally welcome new engineer for the industy. I know that it is quite stupid to do that every year (new moulds every year, new monocoque every year). The only step we can't do ourselves is milling the wood moulds, so we give that to a partner. Not ideal but it works. Sure, FSAE is also about learning project management but I think we managed it quite well in the last three-four years.
Of course my statement "You cannot do that in 6 months" is not entirely correct. We decide to redo every part, every year because the new team chooses to do that (we try to keep the seat because it's awesome :)). With 10 motivated guys and a clear idea in september, the car can be rolling in February, correct.
The new members are motivated yes, that is probably the main reason for our success. But they need to learn CAD, need to learn the rules, need to learn the design process. It works, but it takes some time until they can go "full on" designing.

Matt,
yes of course, if the car MUST run in March, the design would be completely different. We would probably do a monocoque all 2-3 years, not every year from scratch. It is not a "must". GFR or Munich show that "old monocoques" are wicked fast. But as said before, our members have the chance to do that every year, and I'm glad that they can do it. Therefore I'm happy that they can take their time.
For our monocoque, we have a finished CAD part in January, negative moulds in February (a delay due to exams here), and the monocoque in mid to end March.

Once again, I am not stating, that this is the "ideal" way. It is the design philosophy of one team. (Interessting is that Delft chooses the same approach..).

I would not recommend an Indian team to do it this way. I'm just saying, that a Status Video in April to ensure that Indian teams have a running car would change the (successful) time frames of some teams and should therefore not be introduced.

At least from my point, we can go back to topic right now...

Cheers

Soumya

03-02-2014, 01:39 AM

Hello All,

Not to highjack this thread. However, there was an important issue that popped up regarding 'Formula Student India'.

http://www.fsae.com/forums/showthread.php?11651-Formula-Student-India

I look forward to hear your opinions and participation.

Cheers

Claude Rouelle

03-02-2014, 03:59 PM

Based on the comments and the experience of Matt Davis from the University of Cincinnati, I would like to share a few perspectives on the debate on the time, focus an energy dedicated on one hand to design and manufacturing and on testing and development on the other.

1. I was at the FSAE 2012 Italy with 2 design judges who are also Formula One engineers and we were watching the Autocross event. Most of the time the lap time improved between 2 and 5 seconds (if not more) from the first to the second attempt (same driver). The reasonable question we came with was: How much would the team would have gained if there would have been a 3rd lap? Probably not the same increment as between the first and second lap as lap time gain Vs number of laps is not linear. But probably another 0.5 to 1.0 second. Out of a 50 second lap time that is significant. We observed that the best lap times and the smaller improvements came from experienced teams who we knew (from discussion with them in the paddock) spent a significant time in testing. Sure the improvement came from the warmer tires in the second lap but I am sure it also came from the driver also getting “warmer”. One of the skills that drivers need to get out at 100 % on the first lap (even more on cold tire) is confidence. Confidence do come with more preparation and testing.

2. At OptimumG we have worked as consultant for 5 years in the same racing series which had pretty strict rules; spec tire, same bodywork, practically no change allowed in aerodynamic or in engine and transitions kinematics. Basically the only changes we could make were on kinematics: the pickup points on the chassis could be moved in a 20x20x20 mm cube around the homologated points coordinates, the uprights were free, we could change spring, ARB, damper, and the usual suspension alignment (camber, caster, toe, Ackermann, KPI). In 5 years the best lap time in qualify and in race improved an average of 4 seconds a lap. That is 8/10 of a second gained every year. Within the same rules. With the same spec tire. Two conclusions: A) as 8/10 of second covers 2/3 of the starting grid it is a significant gain. That we got only from tons of little refinements; better understanding of the tire, better “marriage” between the car and the driver’s style, many slight change in kinematics, damping and setup. B) When you win a race that means you have the best combination of car-driver compared to your competitors on that circuit, that day. But that doesn't mean you had the best possible car; the proof is that next year you will be 8/10 quicker so it was possible to do better. If with that you are not convinced about the importance of testing…. And that is for professional drivers who make racing their daily job, not with students who drive time to time.

3. Look at the number of passenger cars that major manufacturers recall every year because of design issue that could affect safety and reliability. If you speak with their company CEO he will tell you that sure he likes innovation and show cars and know how demonstration at automotive exhibitions and in press releases but he also likes car which are reliable. Because of ethics and cost and reputation. If the goal of FSAE/FS is to better prepare engineers we need to remember that reliability, safety, and drivability are at least as important as performance and manufacturing cost.

4. I feel that even the best teams I am speaking with at competitions only exploit available tire data at maybe 40 or 50% especially when it is about tuning their traction control / ABS / Differential / to get better grip, balance, stability and control. I believe that a given 2013 electrical car with 4 wheels drive can be easily 2 to 3 seconds a lap faster without changing any design parameters but with improved electronic tuning of torque vectoring (or find at any time the maximum combined grip AND the ideal yaw moment) That is something you can’t get without on track time development. Just as another example, I am amazed that in acceleration most teams target a fixed slip ratio while in fact that slip ratio target should itself be vertical load and speed sensitive (just to name 2 additional parameters). You need to test to find that solution. Remember you live in a world that is very demanding, where you best is never good enough. It could be that you won't know how smarter and harder your competitors is working....until it is too late. Remember that even if you win that doesn't mean you got the best car that can be.

5. Last one. So you spend lets’ say 10 months a FS/FSAE project with one month of testing. That is 10 % of your time. And at best, without any reliability problem (we are dreaming) 500 km. Then what? Put it in the “museum” and restart another 10 months round of intellectual mas… gymnastic design. Isn't that ridiculous? How can you be sure that next year design will eliminate the problems this year car had if you did not test it enough? Philosophically that does not make sense. It is waste of resources. It is a lack of intelligence.

Believe me guys there is at least as much to learn and to gain from testing than from design. Especially for FSAE/FS team. And not only for new teams.

deepakspringy

05-27-2014, 01:13 AM

Hello everyone. I need some help on this URGENTLY.

The Processes Table contains the following items for fastener installation amongst others:

Wrench <= 25.4 mm
Wrench <= 6.35 mm
Wrench > 25.4 mm
Ratchet <= 25.4 mm
Ratchet <= 6.35 mm
Ratchet > 25.4 mm

What does the dimension refer to? Diameter of the Bolt or Fastener Engagement Length?

Deepak Singla
Axlr8r Formula Racing
IIT DELHI

Claude Rouelle

05-27-2014, 07:33 AM

Deepak,

You need some help URGENTLY? URGENTLY? Without an answer in the next few hours you will lose your blood? How do you think the readers of this forum feel with the tone of such question?

By the way the "processes table" of what? What document do you refer to?

deepakspringy

05-28-2014, 04:33 PM

Claude I am really sorry.

Processes table ( General processes which are used in making the cost report) can be found athttp://www.fsaeonline.com/page.aspx?pageid=5ade9b01-8903-4ae1-89e1-489a8a4f08d9

In this table there are set of processes( mentioned below) under the category of Fastener Installation.

Wrench <= 25.4 mm
Wrench <= 6.35 mm
Wrench > 25.4 mm
Ratchet <= 25.4 mm
Ratchet <= 6.35 mm
Ratchet > 25.4 mm

But in the comments given in Table it is not mentioned whether this dimension is diameter of bolt or fastener engagement length. I have made the Cost report using the logic that cost won't depend much on whether we are Installing a M8 or M6 nut. But yes Cost would depend on the engagement length ( which reflects the time used). But while discussing with one of my friend we came up with the fact that Process multiplier ( one of the columns in the processes table) has the factor of fastener engagement. { Process multipliers table can also be found on the same link}.

So finally I am unable to reach to a consensus on whether to use this dimension as diameter of bolt ( Standard way of specifying bolt size) or Engagement length.

Deepak Singla
Axlr8r Formula Racing
IIT DELHI

Som

05-30-2014, 12:58 PM

The problem most of the people come with Royal Enfield 500cc is the vibrations caused by it. What can be done to reduce that to a larger extent?

Claude Rouelle

05-30-2014, 01:17 PM

Hmmm.... Excuse us? Have we been introduced?

Or in simple words: "Who the heck are you"?

Claude Rouelle

05-30-2014, 01:22 PM

Deepak,

I do not feel qualified enough to answer a cost question but I just want to mention that your life (and ours) would have been easier if you would have expressed your question the first time in a bit more detail as you just did the second time. The URGENTLY NEEDED words are often a turn off, while your second post is more engaging.

happypranav

06-07-2014, 03:08 AM

The problem most of the people come with Royal Enfield 500cc is the vibrations caused by it. What can be done to reduce that to a larger extent?

If I would have faced such situation I would think of following.

1. Hydraulic mount than traditional rubber mounts.
2. Increase number of members on which the engine is mounted( provide extra stiffness )
3. Ignition tuning

Claude Rouelle

08-12-2014, 10:30 PM

No one the India teams finished endurance at this year FSG.

The students of one Indian team admitted to me that they did not do any testing.

For the very first time one other Indian team was refused in the technical inspection; the rule stipulates that the car must be presented in race ready conditions; I saw the car and it sure wasn't.

This has been debated in this thread but I can't help to repeat it; I can't comprehend why in the hell a team would send a car and so many students from so far away being aware that there wasn't any chance to pass tech or having practically no chance to have the car running.

On the positive note I saw at least 3 Indian cars with a descent design and acceptable manufacturing quality; there is hope. These cars did not finished endurance because either they did not test enough (200 km is far from being enough) or if they tested enough (is there such thing?) they forgot that not all parts of a race car have eternal life and not all parts have the maintenance needs and/or same life cycle.

Bemo

08-13-2014, 07:00 AM

I can second what Claude said. The performance of the Indian team nowadays differs in quite a wide range. There are teams who bring quite decent cars to competitions which don't have to many problems to go through tech and have a fair chance to finish the dynamic disciplines. But it is still the case that the lower end of the scale is marked by Indian teams.

I was a member of the scrutineering team who refused to actually inspect that one car (I won't tell the name of the team, as it is no use in blaming someone in public). The car was very very far from being able to run under its own power. Whereever you looked at things weren't rules compliant nor working. The electric system was catastrophic. The starter could be used without the primary master switch in "on" position. Actually if you would have switched on the primary master switch you would just have had a short curcuit on the battery. There was a toe rod directly welded to an upright. And so on and so on. It is not that we sent the guys away without any explanation. We tried to explain why we aren't willing to inspect the car and what the most important issues are.

What really bothers me is that there are teams who didn't get a starting slot because slots are blocked by such teams. It must have been obvious weeks before competition that this car won't be running at FSG at all. It is a matter of fairness then to withdraw and let a team with an actual working car participate instead. If you already booked your flights it would be no problem to come to the competition anyway just to have a look at other cars and chat with team members and design judges. People at FSAE competitions are always willing to share their knowledge and experience, but if you block starting slots with non-functional cars, you shouldn't be surprised if hard feelings arise against your team and the prejudices a lot of people might have against Indian teams might be confirmed.

Thijs

08-13-2014, 10:03 AM

I don't understand how a car like that manages to pass the Vehicle Status Video/Vehicle Status Report.
Sounds like this could have been foreseen.

Claude Rouelle

08-13-2014, 11:32 AM

Thijs,

I obviously got the same question!

I also have strongly suggested to the organisers of 2015 FSI (Formula Student India) to have their teams submitting a video of their car running to be sent 3 months before the competition. That would be 2nd week of October. That is in 9 weeks.

I think this video submission (and ideally basic pictures and minimum engineering reports) is indispensable if they want to avoid having 1/3 to 1/2 (if not more) of the participants not passing technical inspection. I don't know if they will do it: it seems the FSI organizers are not fully awake recently...

bob.paasch

08-13-2014, 01:32 PM

What really bothers me is that there are teams who didn't get a starting slot because slots are blocked by such teams. It must have been obvious weeks before competition that this car won't be running at FSG at all. It is a matter of fairness then to withdraw and let a team with an actual working car participate instead. If you already booked your flights it would be no problem to come to the competition anyway just to have a look at other cars and chat with team members and design judges. People at FSAE competitions are always willing to share their knowledge and experience, but if you block starting slots with non-functional cars, you shouldn't be surprised if hard feelings arise against your team and the prejudices a lot of people might have against Indian teams might be confirmed.

Thank you Bemo, this was exactly my point back in February. At that point FSG had 12 Indian teams taking up FSC slots. Eventually 3 of those withdrew, but 9 participated at Hockenheim. For those 9: Team 54 Vellore VIT scored points in accel and skidpad, though their skidpad score was the 3.5 minimum. Team 18 Mumbai Somaiya scored points in accel. None of the Indian teams scored any points in autocross, endurance, or fuel. None of the other 7 Indian teams scored any dynamic points at all. IMHO, what a waste of resources.

I would recommend the FSG organizers accept only the top 2 teams from 2015 FS India for 2015 FSG.

Ray19

08-13-2014, 03:07 PM

I have said this before and I say it again, vehicle status video seems pretty mismanaged to me. No way would there have been 9 properly running cars on those videos if you ask me. Why they weren't disqualified is beyond me. Also maybe they could check the SES more closely and look at car photos. Surely if they can look for proof of unsafe testing in team videos and photos like they have started to do this year they can do this. As an Indian and especially an alumni of one of the participating teams at fsg this year it was incredibly disheartening to see what happened and I am sure it could have been avoided. I honestly have to side with Bob Paasch's views that teams for fsg should be selected from fs India but a strict 2 team limit would be wrong. Rather take as many as deemed fit for a competition like fsg. If that means 5 teams then great but if only one team deserves it then so be it. I might not be making many new friends with these comments but it is horrifying to see some of these ill prepared cars make it to fsg and tarnish the country's image. And a thought for all the Indian teams out there, I have built a car in an Indian workshop and i've been to FSG (2013) and believe me when I say this, there is no reason that an Indian car cannot be in the top 20 at fsg at the very least! If only you can heed the words of the more respected members here and know that all you need is to make a simple, well designed and well tested car to achieve it(and none of those points depend on money or resources).

Note: The above comments are solely my opinion and not that of my teammates or my former team.

Kevin Hayward

08-13-2014, 11:05 PM

I think it is worthwhile encouraging the Indian teams to compete in a smaller well established competition like Japan or Australia. Taking up so many places at a large event like Germany seems a waste. There is a little more time in the smaller events for the teams to get better feedback, while still having highly professional and competitive teams to run against.

One of the big advantages in Australia is that due to the extra time there are double the number of runs for Autocross and Endurance. This gives much more opportunity for teams to get valuable track time. Well as long as you arrive ready to run.

A lot of the cars in comps like Japan and Australia are closer to what some of the Indian teams should be aiming at currently. Teams from India could do a lot worse than follow Monash around and see what can be done on a small budget (a little better pre turbo and DRS). The first Indian team to adopt a similar project management approach to Monash over a number of years, will be the first to provide an internationally competitive car.

Any Indian teams that want to send a few people over to Western Australia, will likely find 3 decent teams willing to show them around. Faculty advisors would be more than welcome.

Kev

Kevin Hayward

08-14-2014, 01:05 AM

Bemo

08-14-2014, 01:44 AM

I think it would be sufficient to really use the status videos to disqualify teams who obviously have no chance to compete. I haven't ever seen such a video, but I can't imagine that it is possible to make a video with some of the cars I've seen, you could get the impression that this car has a chance to run (except if a team cheated excessively - like using another car...). I think the problem here is inconsequence by the organizers. The status video in general is a good concept for an overbooked event to make sure only teams with a fair chance to compete in the dynamic events get starting slots.

Kevin's idea to advise teams to go to smaller events which aren't overbooked is propably a good way. I've been to the Australian event with my team in '08. Due to the much smaller number of teams compared to FSG the whole event is much more relaxed. Officials and teams have much more time to discuss things. Summed up that means, you don't risk hard feelings by blocking a starting slot as there wouldn't have been another team who would have wanted the slot and people have more time to share knowledge and experience. But still it makes only sense to bring a car if it is built to a certain minimum standard, i.e. able to run and rules compliant. If the car is too heavy, doesn't have enough power whatsoever is not that important. If you are able to participate in the dynamic events you have at least something you can improve on in the next year.

Big Bird

08-16-2014, 10:07 AM

To change, you must want to. I don’t get the impression there is any great want in this case.

Sure, if you ask a team if they want to win, they will say they do. But I think in many cases if you asked them if they wanted an ice cream you’d get the same response. “Yeah, we want to win. But it is really hard for us, you know – we can’t get CBR600’s easily in our country, and because of that we couldn’t finish our c… OOH! AN ICE CREAM TRUCK!!!!!....”

The successful teams I’ve encountered WANTED to win. They NEEDED it. They had a point to prove, and they were hell-bent on proving it. And when they encountered someone doing it better – they watched, listened, took notes, implemented change where needed.

That final point – it is an important one. The word is CHANGE. It involves following a different course. It is not about following the same course you always have but adding another course as well.

It involves being humble enough to both know what you are capable of achieving, and also to recognize where your competitors are better than you – and then CHANGING accordingly. You do NOT need to copy your competitors. But you need to learn from them, as you also need to learn from your own history.

It is about being humble enough to accept that you are not perfect. You cannot be everything at once. Life is not just about continually adding bits to yourself until you are perfect – that there are times when you have to accept that you may need to give up parts of your identity that haven’t been working for you either.

When an alumnus or a design judge or a racing personality talks about, for example, the value of simple design, it is not because they like the sound of the word, or because they want to hear the word coming out of your mouth, or they want to hear you defending how your university’s legacy design that you enter each year is now “simple”. The words coming out of your mouth mean nothing.

They want to see you CHANGE your ways. They want to see you LIVING the words, not just saying them. They want to see you assessing your own past practices, seeing where they are deficient, and CHANGING those aspects that are not up to standard.

It is NOT, NOT, NOT (!!!!!!) just about “AND”ing all the things you hear to your existing practices. If your vehicle design is too resource intensive for you to deliver properly each year, then you need to do LESS. If that makes your car somehow “slower” or “less cool” then so be it.

Simplicity. People parrot this. And have no understanding of it. Simplicity is not like MSG or salt. You don’t add it. You don’t take last years car and add a new one way slipper clutch and an undertray and some simplicity. Simplicity is about getting rid of stuff. And this is confronting to us.

See, this is the problem. People are too proud to change themselves. It is an affront to think that you have got something wrong in this life. After all, you are at university, you are clever, you’ve been top of your class right through high school, got high distinctions in your foundation classes. You can’t be wrong!!

So the response to criticism is to argue. Rather than listen and clarify and cogitate over the words offered to us in criticism, we try to find ways to dismiss them. We argue, we dispute, we find ways the presenter is different to us in order to paint a picture in our minds that their advice somehow isn’t relevant to us. We only accept the advice that is comfortable to us. The stuff that makes sense, but doesn’t shake us or make us reconsider our own worldview. The nice stuff.

So what does this do? It makes the project more complex. For each of us we have the “untouchables” – our own prejudices and preferences that we won’t touch. We then add the bits of advice that are not confronting to us.
But we do not take anything away because we are too damn precious to accept that there are ways that we have been wrong. Net result?? We are going to fix this project that was too big for our team to complete last year by doing more stuff on top of what we already do.

It takes guts to look back at something you have done and say, openly and honestly, we got that wrong. And you will never win if you cannot do this.

Back to the intent of the thread, I don’t think that the teams in this thread really want to change. I don’t think they want things to be different. And when I say want, I mean that they truly want to DO anything about it.
In fact, I don’t even think many Indian teams or competitors read this thread. It is the same names popping up to engage with us (Siddhant, Mahek, etc), plus the occasional random that comes and goes.

I saw my first Indian FSAE car ten years ago at FSUK. I’m sorry to say, it was awful. I fail to understand how ten years down the track, things still haven’t improved. If change was wanted, it would have happened by now.

I have offered many times to many people from many Indian teams that I am willing to help them. That is, help them with their strategy and their planning to build a successful car – not to check their theoretical calculations for spring rates as so often appears in my PM boxes. When I was at the SAE I offered many times that we could organize tours for them and design seminars. I have even offered to host teams for a month or two at my own home and source welders and material and parts so that they might come over here and we can build a simple car together for them to enter in our competition. But…. No. Its sort of a bit hard really, you don’t understand Geoff…

So which Indian team wants to win? Which Indian team wants to be the first to do this properly? Which Indian team is going to be the first one to turn their own spotlight on themselves, swallow their pride and CHANGE. What will you get rid of? What parts of this project and your history are you strong enough to walk away from?

“Of course we want to win. We are going to change. We are going to build a simple and reliable and adjustable car. We will get three months testing. Yeah, I know our guys said that last year, but we had a supplier that was late, and – OH LOOK!!! AN ICE CREAM TRUCK!!”

happypranav

08-20-2014, 12:54 AM

So the response to criticism is to argue. Rather than listen and clarify and cogitate over the words offered to us in criticism, we try to find ways to dismiss them. We argue, we dispute, we find ways the presenter is different to us in order to paint a picture in our minds that their advice somehow isn’t relevant to us. We only accept the advice that is comfortable to us. The stuff that makes sense, but doesn’t shake us or make us reconsider our own worldview. The nice stuff.

Now that's how you Design it. Build it. Break it.

Geoff, problem with Indian teams is lack of professionalism and lack of management. They are good at all technical concepts, they are thirsty to learn new things and practical things as nothing is taught in Graduation course for 4 years. They do tackle with lots of effort to gain financial assistance. Even after striking many dead ends they do it as good possible for them but cant get out with bestest thing because of poor management of available resources and very bad professionalism. It is time for them to do things with high end management and professional attitude.

Ray19

08-20-2014, 11:58 AM

Now that's how you Design it. Build it. Break it.

Geoff, problem with Indian teams is lack of professionalism and lack of management. They are good at all technical concepts, they are thirsty to learn new things and practical things as nothing is taught in Graduation course for 4 years. They do tackle with lots of effort to gain financial assistance. Even after striking many dead ends they do it as good possible for them but cant get out with bestest thing because of poor management of available resources and very bad professionalism. It is time for them to do things with high end management and professional attitude.

Most Indian teams are actually NOT good at technical concepts. If that would have been the case you wouldn't see so many basic design errors in most of these cars. Also you don't see a lot of Indian teams get a lot of points in design which if they were good with their concepts wouldn't happen.

Most Indians on this forum at least are NOT thirsty for knowledge which is actually one of the reasons their technical concepts are not great. How many times have you seen Indians on this forum asking to be spoonfed answers and magic numbers without trying to put in an ounce of effort themselves? Quite a few I can tell you that. Is that a sign of thirst for knowledge according to you?

Gross mismanagement in every form and unprofessionalism are obvious factors but we don't need to pat ourselves in the back for anything yet. We still have a long way to go but I still believe that things can change quite quickly if a team gets the hang of things and maybe even in a couple of years we can see some really good Indian cars out there.

Please note that I have used the word most teams and not all. I know of a few teams that don't make these basic mistakes anymore but even they need to step up a gear fast and I think they know it.

Big Bird

08-21-2014, 07:16 PM

Thanks Sidhant and Pranav. It is a shame we cannot encourage some new names to the conversation...

Pranav, good points. What I would encourage you to do is two things:
1. Define specific aspects of management and professionalism that you can work on. Don't leave them in broad terms as above. If I were to say that the solution was all about "technology" but never got any more specific than that, you would soon realize that I really didn't know what I was on about
2. Take ownership. Set an example. Don't assume that by naming the problem you have fixed it. BE the one who solves the problem.

Thanks gents,

Geoff

Claude Rouelle

07-19-2015, 03:24 PM

And here we go again....

Similarly to my expulsion from a racing circuit (my first and only one in my 40 year career) from Supra in 2012, I understand that this happened again, again from Supra, this time to a Indian guy.

I do not know yet the exact details and I will also let this guy make his own comments on the "incident" if and when and where he wants.

Not only a growing number of international FSAE / FS design judges (and I am one of them) support this group of volunteers from outside India but also a growing number of dedicated, qualified, honest, respectful of ethics and principles, professional engineers, companies and sponsors also support this volunteers group inside India.

Most this volunteer group have participated to former FSAE and/or Formula Students competitions abroad. They know the main deficiencies of Indian Formula students teams and they made a promise to themselves to elevate the knowledge and skills of Indian engineering students and the design and manufacturing quality and the performances and reliability of the car that Indian FS produce so that Indian teams could better competing against teams of other nations. And we start to seen the positive results of their actions. Nothing or nobody can stop them. Because their actions are dictated by their heart. These are inside out solutions not outside in solutions. They know WHY they do what they do. They are surrounded by a growing number of people who also believe what they believe.

History has shown that an organization of the people, by the people for the people made of smart, honest, ethical, dedicated, young and passionate persons driven by the mission of increasing of their countrymen skills and their country international competitiveness will always prevail on the pettiness of any bureaucracy. What are the guys on the other side thinking? What positive outcome can you get by the expulsion of a guy who represents a growing and unstoppable movement that is born from the desire to efficiently and ethically support better education of his peers?

I any case the India Supra (supra what I still wonder.....?) political refugee club is honored to welcome is second member! :) :) :)

Soumya

07-22-2015, 04:51 AM

I was present for a brief period of time last weekend at Supra event. The incident reported by Claude is true. It is shameful & goes on to show the attitude of the organizers that they put their politics over the education of the students. This time to make matters even worse the person was evicted while he was talking to a group of students and reviewing their car at the event site.

I will not dwell too much on this issue as the standard ( or the lack thereof) the Supra event is something the FS community across the world is quite familiar with.

However, I would like to report on the things I observed last weekend at the event. There were 91 teams present out of the 160+ who applied for the competition. Out of these 91 teams about 70-75 cars ( and teams) were utter junk. These are still the remnants from the era of 800 cc powered engines which weighed close to 400-450 kgs. These are more of a prototype put together instead of designing ( as the competition requires it to be).

There were 10-15 cars at the competition which looked like an commendable effort , however seemed unfinished ( more on this later in the post).

I had engaged with several team members from these group and also saw their car in detail. There were a few factors apparent:

- All of these teams are already entered in Formula Student India.
- The teams have discarded the heavy engines and road tires. They have shifted to single cylinders and racing slicks. There were atleast 2 teams who even were running 10" slicks.
- The teams have a much better understanding of the rules and the basic principle of how things should work.
- The teams have invested in proper machined components & they do understand the principle of what is the deficiency of their sub-system(s)
- The teams didnt evolve this much in last year(2014) or the year before (2012). They had nothing to aspire to as the competition rules were not on par with global standards and the level of judging is rudimentary. Most of these teams cannot afford to go outside of India & hence there was no need to invest a lot of money to take part in only 1 competition within India.

Since 2014 the teams know of a international standard event with experience judges ( Claude, Pat, Steve et al) being organised within India. Now they have something to look up to and they have started evolving. Infact, some of the students told me that their car is not even complete at Supra ( as I already had noticed). They think of Supra as a mid year shakedown & will continue to evolve the cars prior to Formula Student India in 2016 January.

Even then, the top teams at Supra ( and I DONT mean the award winners) are not representative of the actual Formula Student scenario in India. The top teams of Formula Student India has never participated in Supra. They were competing internationally ONLY before FSI came into being.

With FSI in existence, there is a major shift in the teams who do this seriously. Earlier all Indian teams were on a design cycle of August to June/July. This is due to no Indian teams in USA competitions (with maybe a couple of exceptions), and the European season starting with FSUK in June. Currently, the teams have shifted to a design cycle of February - October.

The FSI deadlines might seem out of sync. However, the organisers do not see the competition as the final deadline. With all the posts by various people on this forum about how important testing is, the FSI organisers have actually implemented this since their very first competition in earlier this year. The running car picture requirement is quite strict and has been inititated by Claude in 2014 & went on to be fine tuned by Steve Fox. There were still some issues experienced in 2015 event & then the issues were addressed by making the requirements even more specific. Credit for this goes to Maria Bonilla Esther Torres & Felix Scherke ( from FSG ). They are chief tech inspectors at FSI.

For 2016, the FSI teams need to submit the images and upon approval from the judges can submit their testing video 5 weeks later. If a car is deemed unsafe for testing the team will be notified and they need to resubmit with corrections. Failure to do so will result in Penalty ( in points and/ or might lead up to expulsion).

All this is just theory and we can think that this will go on to improve the state of affairs. However, after visiting Supra last weekend , I feel that the good teams are already working towards it. It seems to be gradual slow change as there is some residual inertia from the dark days of the mandatory 800 cc engines.

The teams I spoke to are well aware of the global standards and often quoted most popular topics on this forum or Pat's corner blogs. They may not be taking part in the discussions here but they are surely following this forum. That could be visible in their cars too. They may not be Delft or GFR yet, but with the strictness of FSI in place they could be headed that way.

There has been a long time since we have seen some ridiculous posts on here by Indian teams. Previously it was a regular occurrence. Although with such a huge crowd interested in this competition ( but having no means yet to do so), it is bound to happen. Currently, they have had their wake up call & a small light can be seen at the end of the tunnel.

Another factor is the number of Indian teams going to FSG in 2014. It was a record high of 12 last year. In 2015 it is only 3.

Most of the top FS teams from India have taken a year off. They are spending time and resources to either perfect their car or revamping their design goals completely ( design reports are already submitted, so we know the general direction they are headed). The strategy seems to be to get a reliable car for FSI 2016 & once the car is fine tuned ONLY then go to European comps.

Also, the teams I spoke to at Supra last weekend have requested us to set up a testing day ( similar to the Bosch Day at Bruntingthorpe for the UK teams), so that they can go proper testing. Teams know that crawling around in the parking lot will not give them any advantage.

The students are hungry for the change and are working towards it. We at FSI will try our best to keep it going & hopefully we will see some major changes in the overall Indian FS scenario.

Regards

Soumya Kanti Bose

Event Manager
Formula Student India

carbontub

12-14-2015, 05:20 AM

Hi,I would like to know if you had the chance to experiment with nickel bronze welding?

Claude Rouelle

02-16-2016, 08:33 PM

I attended Formula Student India at the Buddh circuit on January 25-28 as a design judge. Here are a few facts and comments.

In short the organization was not good but there is a significant improvement in performance and reliability of the few top Formula Student India cars. The average car design and manufacturing level is still pretty low, the engineering knowledge is still pretty low too but there is some hope.

In general the organization was worse than 2015 and 2015 had already a lot to be desired. There were a lot of volunteers with passion and aspiration to help but there wasn’t any or no good guidance, little or no training, a lot of improvisation, lack of check list, lack of clear definition of each volunteer job, lack of communication and simply lack of leadership. The schedule was….on Indian time (which means that most of the static and dynamic events, bus departure from the hotel or from the circuit, etc.. started late)

The organizer probably had their eyes bigger their stomach as they organized the Baja and the Formula Student event one right after the other. That was a huge mistake. Several international judges like Steve Fox and Pat Clarke and I advised the organizers to avoid this but we were not heard. The Baja track was 3. 5 kilometers from the Buddh circuit (the cars had to be transported or ran on the public road – some car did not even make it to or from the circuit - in a chaotic convoy) so if the goal was to create a common Baja / FS atmosphere that’s did not work well.

Most volunteers and organizers were already pretty tired from working on the Baja event before FSI even started.

Formula Student Germany has acquired a good reputation not only because of its very good organization, but also because of its atmosphere. The configuration of their paddock is an example. All of the events are close to each other—registration, event control, design, cost and business judging, VIP lodge, technical inspection, test track, acceleration, skid pad, sprint and endurance track as well as award ceremony—everything is within 400 meters. That brings a sense of community. What provides long term success of a competition for students, judges, sponsors, etc. in a competition is memory and emotions. Emotions are even greater when they are experienced and shared in a community. Having all the participants within close proximity to each other and of the track is very important for the awareness of the belonging to a community.

The Buddh circuit was not that at all. Way too big, too impersonal. Quite cold (5 deg. C and lot of fog in the morning, 15 deg. C in the afternoon) not the right place, not the right time of the year.

Airport pick up was inexistent. That is fine, I am a big boy, I can organize my own transportation, I do that half of the year. But I was promised to be picked up and nobody showed up. That did not start well.

The judges spent 2 ½ hour every day for the hotel – circuit round trip. Consequently we arrived at the hotel after diner time so most of our meals happened at Mc Donald or from snack at the fuel station. The “continental” food (to avoid the Delhi Belly) served at lunch at the circuit at a food truck was quite good I have to say.

Most of the Indian design and cost judges did not stay after the design and cost event (2 days of design judging, I still do not understand why) to give feedback. Not the best way to help Indian students.

Despite several unheard requests that is only the day of the design event that judges knew which car they were going to judge.

I was very happy with the design judges I worked with. All of them were either experienced professional engineers and/or former FS participants.

I made a suggestion 2 years ago to create a detailed submission system with pictures (3 months before the competition) and videos (2 months before the competition) that would ease the technical inspection and avoid getting cars of teams who really did not care. The submission system that the FSI guys created is excellent: simply the best one I ever have seen in any Formula student competition. For example teams have to show details of the car with templates. Judges can warm team ahead of time to fix things before the technical inspection. Unfortunately at the last minute for a reason I still do not comprehend, the organizers decided to allow teams that didn’t even submit any documents to show up (and guess what these cars were pretty bad – as if these students did not care or had any ideas of the minimum that was expected from them). Very disappointing. I gave a lot of time and I tried with several other judges for years to help the organizers to elevate the FS Indian cars car design and manufacturing level and the whole process suddenly became a blessing of mediocrity.

Technical inspection was chaotic. The main reason was probably lack of training. Volunteers did not have clear definition of expectations.

With the help of Matt Schroeder, an OptimumG intern, I designed the track. I purposely made it slow because Indian cars have not high reliability record and I did not want to see any of these cars in losing a wheel or two in a 100 km/h corner. We had the change the track a bit on my arrival (the volunteers did a fantastic job) because you can’t see pot holes and big bumps on satellite pictures. I purposely designed a few corners with the minimum 4.5 m outside radius as there is one at Formula Student Italy (FS is not racing but I can’t help to tell a quick story: a few years ago Level 5 team of LMP Lola cars packed after the first Long Beach practice because they did not have enough steering angle for the hairpin. I did not want FSI cars to get in the same trouble; they were warned that such corner will be part of the circuit; they had the track drawing in advance) Many drivers told me that enjoyed the track. Some of them - with incredibly high steering torque - must have kept their arms in iced water the next days after the competition. The track was too far away from the public viewing area. No lap time display, no live comments, little atmosphere. The students of the teams that participated to the endurance were very excited and showed a lot of enthusiasm with their screaming encouragements. Life comments would have multiplied by 10 this enjoyment and memory. That is the minimum you owe to a sponsor.

Some of the cars were good and well driven and some teams show good engineering knowledge. It would be a B car in any other completion. Nothing to be ashamed of. Most of the cars are still 50 to 80 kg too heavy, though.

One car did not pass technical inspection because the roll hoop was made of tube of 24.5 mm (or 25.0, I do not remember) instead of 25.4 mm. The team disassembled the car, manufactured a new roll hoop, re-welded everything… in one night and passed the technical inspection the next day. A real prowess. An amazing example of team work not only for Indian teams but for any FS team in the world
1
The award ceremony was lacking a bit of luster and organization (but was still more enjoyable that the US one!)

Some FSI facts by the numbers

- 47 out of 50 registered teams showed up.
- 12 cars passed Technical inspection (1 sticker)
- 9 teams were eligible to run dynamics (all stickers)
- Only 2 cars did acceleration
- 7 cars went on Skidpad
- 5 cars went on autocross all completed
- 9 cars started endurance; 6 finished (not great but way better than last year)
- 1020 cones were hit by all cars.
- 256 vones by just one of them! World record I guess.
- There were about 1400 participants

Quick conclusions:
- Organization went from C- to F. Time to rethink the management. Not interested to be a volunteer again in these conditions. I could have made a better use of my time that week in a GT test on an Asian test track for a team my company consult for. I want to volunteer but I also want to feel I can make a difference. For that a minimum event organization competence is required
- Top 5 cars went from C to B. There is hope; these teams will do more than decent in any other international competitions. The knowledge, the team work, the manufacturing quality, the speed and the reliability are there. Real improvement. Very respectful effort when you know how little support there is in India for this kind of endeavors. These teams are showing the way. They learned a lot for their engineering career. Still a long way to go but all the reasons to be optimistic. Can’t wait to see them again in Europe.
- Middle still C- and the last 1/3 I prefer to not comment.

Pat Clarke

02-16-2016, 10:34 PM

To support what Claude had to say, FSI was not a particularly enjoyable event for me either.

I have to say that the never ending pea-soup fog over the 10 days I was there made for a very unhealthy situation.
The smog meant the air quality was 30 times worse than the WHO limits, and several of the visitors were sick. I had to visit the hospital with an ear infection.
Walking to our hotel from McDonalds (Ever tried a 'Big Maharajah burger with fries and a Coke'?) one night, I could hardly breathe! It was that bad.

90 minutes each way in Delhi traffic in a noisy (93db) smelly bus wasted all that time when we could have been advising students. Plans for 'mini seminars'
each day had to be scrapped.

The Buddh circuit will never see another Grand Prix, after only a few years, the place is starting to fall to pieces as a result of shoddy workmanship and materials used
and I will not mention the state of the toilets etc.
Bernie would have a fit if he could see it now.

Security at the circuit was intrusive but laughable. On arrival at the circuit, one could not gain admission without credentials ....
But the credentials office was a one kilometer walk away!

Once inside, one had to walk through a metal detector, like at an airport... But nobody monitored it, so the pings and beeps caused by cameras and phones could
just as easily been caused by an Uzi or hand grenade.

Speaking of cameras, my $500 Sony went 'walkabout' during the event :-(

The Indian students showed their usual huge enthusiasm. I did not see any dynamic events as I was busy giving feedback in the pits.

One thing that is becoming clear to me is the event is off the rails for the following reason...

Despite FS being a competition for University teams, very few Universities have any interest. Those that do support it and who supply a Faculty Advisor are
invariably at the top.

Most teams are a selection of students who get together to build a 'Formula One Racecar' in their spare time, with no Uni input.

This has resulted in a little cottage industry setting up in India where a team can buy hubs, uprights, differential assy, axles,
steering assembly and even the steering wheel and even the seat.

This stuff is then assembled into some semblance of a car (we called them 'kitcars' and could identify them from 50 feet)and taken to the competition
by an enthusiastic group of smiling students who do not realise they have not learned very much.
Many of the cars were recycled or 'cut and shut' from earlier cars. One I saw had its genesis in 2013.

So, as a viable competition, this cannot go on. Without support for the event from the Universities, the event will remain mired in mediocrity.
The event management, with the best of good intentions, is chaotic and I find it difficult to see that improving any time soon.

The event needs to be relocated to a site more central and where the event is not spread over an unmanagable large area. Buddh was not only unsuitable,
it was hugely expensive. I guess the organisers felt there would be some cachet in running at a GP circuit like FSUK or FS Germany. In truth, the event was
run on poorly surfaced service roads where the surface was breaking up.

Running the event in parallel with the Baja event was madness for all the reasons Claude mentioned. It detracted from both events!

Like Claude, I am seriously considering my future at FSI. Perhaps there are better ways to spend my time.

Pat

Siddharth Mandal

02-19-2016, 04:09 PM

The Indian event and the alumni-backed organisation that conducts it are still in their early days. But, because this was our second attempt, the evaluation standards are rightly higher. I agree with all the points made by Claude and Pat and admit at some level we need to re-think how we conduct our operations. I have been in FSAE for over a decade now and think that before we expect professionalism from the students who submit our work to us , we ourselves need to show exemplary conduct that goes above and beyond of "what is expected from us" .

That said, things in India, as I have realized myself, happen in their own obtuse way. Like most fellow Indians, I find this non-linearity frustrating as well and often shift between accepting and resenting this "organised chaos". The overall standing of Indian teams has become worse than it was a 7-8 years back and development is stagnated, but its mildly heartening to see Claude see at least some improvement in the cars.

Coming to the event and its organisation, the Buddh Circuit in midwinter is not the best time to conduct an FSAE style event. Though we had good sunlight during the FSI dynamics, the weather as Pat and Claude pointed out was not even remotely ideal for an outdoors event. We were sorely under-prepared for the weather. Additionally , the crumbling infrastructure at Buddh , which is not a priority asset for the over- leveraged Jaypee Group, did nothing to help the organisation of the event. The move to Budhh was driven by ambition, primarily because FSG and FS UK are held a major F1 circuits, but we had not planned adequately to justify the move. Talking about security at the event, I was held up a few times at the gates, asked to leave the grandstand area because more important people were coming and had to depend on my "Madipur- Nangloi Jat" upbringing to counter unnecessarily aggressive security personnel. Hotheads don't contribute to any calm disposition required to manage an event (though I was not managing much, rather anything).

Further, as Claude and Pat pointed out, hospitality and logistics was a major issue. Pat had very serious health concerns due to the Fog and it was personally depressing to see that we had invited him to such a situation. This is the second year where he was not adequately cared for. That said, FSI is the only event that pays all the expenses of its Judges and Alumni Volunteers . While I have not conducted a forensic audit, I am given to believe that these hospitality and logistics expenditures constitute a significant portion of the budget. While the presence of international judges and tech inspectors is essential, Expense Prioritization is being seriously worked on and I guess the alumni will have to ask themselves - How many of us will be committed to the "cause" if our expenses were not paid ?. Just an internal reality check.

Going forward, the feedback received from Claude, Pat, Steve, Prof. Jones and others is being worked upon. Most of us agree that if the event has to be made better then we need a balance between management consistency and organisational restructuring. Jargons apart, we cannot afford to have another event that falls anywhere below exceptional. I am not an official spokesperson for the Organisation , but on my part can assure that the feedback given by all is being actively worked up on. More as things develop.

Siddharth Mandal
______________________________________________
FS India 2015 B-Plan Captain, 2016 B-Plan Judge
OC Member, Delta Inc., FSI-BSI.
Ashwa Racing Teams (2006-2009)
Chair, Alumni Steering Committee (2009- Present)