Teams from India

[sbrenaman]

It is very easy for others to criticize Indian FSAE teams but you guys frankly have no idea about the problems we face. I am ready to bet that if GFR, stuttgart or delft guys worked in an indian team a majority of them will quit or lose hope within 6 months.

And now everyone will think that I whine too much.

FSAE students all over the world quit within 6 months. These are the 'resume' guys.

Define a successful FSAE team on competition results, improvement year-to-year, and performance relative to performance potential. (AKA, character)

A successful FSAE team will be successful regardless of location. Use this as a road map of success and you will progress as an Indian team.

We all face(d) the same magnitude of problems, they are just different problems. An aero package and a composite chassis for an established team is just as difficult as attending competition is for a new team.

[titanium]

To all the 'whinning' 'ranting' and 'angry' indians- STOP TALKING AND START WORKING.

If you dont like the comments made by claude and pat then the only way to escape that is to build a car that is technically sound rather than negating their comments.

It is a pain to go through this thread everyday and watching the reputation of indian teams shredded down to pieces. So please, stop being pathetic and stop talking because you make it even worse.
WORK INSTEAD.

[BrendonD]

Originally posted by titanium:
To all the 'whinning' 'ranting' and 'angry' indians- STOP TALKING AND START WORKING.

If you dont like the comments made by claude and pat then the only way to escape that is to build a car that is technically sound rather than negating their comments.

It is a pain to go through this thread everyday and watching the reputation of indian teams shredded down to pieces. So please, stop being pathetic and stop talking because you make it even worse.
WORK INSTEAD.

This isn't a valid response if you're trying to motivate someone.

If you tell someone to work, and not what they're working towards, you will find that they will all produce crappy results. It starts with vision, it's directed by good leadership, and it's executed to completion by hard work. If you don't have the first two, telling someone to do the third will be fruitless, and they will ignore you the next time you tell them to do something.

[Mustafa]

Originally posted by BrendonD:
It starts with vision, it's directed by good leadership, and it's executed to completion by hard work. If you don't have the first two, telling someone to do the third will be fruitless, and they will ignore you the next time you tell them to do something.

+1 billion. Well said, sums up what Dick Golembiewski wrote in 'Managing Projects'. Every captain and subgroup leader should read it, and read it again. Invaluable advice for FSAE and life.

But titanium has a point, this topic was started for FSAE teams from India to get help.
A number of Indian teams are going to FSUK and FSG, I count 8. Any of you on this forum? Whats your progress?

[Z]

A key point I take out of this thread is the incredible pervasiveness and influence of "culture".

India is a country of a billion+ people, having a great many tertiary schools, each with many clever young men, all of whom want to build an impressively fast car.

BUT!!! somehow the country's "culture of incompetence" PREVENTS this from ever happening. How? Why, never, ever, a reasonable car? http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif
~~~o0o~~~

Of course, (IMO) it is only a little better in the west. The western FSAE cars might be seen as "competent", and can, mostly, drive 30kms reasonably quickly. But these are really just polished clones of the cars that were racing 20+ years ago. There has been negligible progress in the last two decades.

Very few western FSAE teams address the problem of "given these rules, build as fast a car as possible". Mostly they just copy the same-old-same-old. However, they do it in a competent fashion (especially those of "German" culture).
~~o0o~~~

So,

Indian Culture = "Whatever you do, DO NOT do it well."

Western Culture = "Whatever you do, DO NOT do anything new."

To me it is truly frightening that "homo mimicus's" desire to conform to social and cultural norms means that none of the creative and imaginative FSAE students (and there are some out there!) have been ALLOWED to build a car that is anywhere near as fast as the rules allow.

That "sapiens" name has to be a joke. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Z

[Nishant Jain]

Z, putting it delicately, we shouldn't argue people's perceptions of history/culture on this forum.

Let's get back on track to solving problems relating to FSAE, everyone?

[AngryIndian]

Originally posted by titanium:
To all the 'whinning' 'ranting' and 'angry' indians- STOP TALKING AND START WORKING.

If you dont like the comments made by claude and pat then the only way to escape that is to build a car that is technically sound rather than negating their comments.

It is a pain to go through this thread everyday and watching the reputation of indian teams shredded down to pieces. So please, stop being pathetic and stop talking because you make it even worse.
WORK INSTEAD.

Most of the 'whining' 'ranting' and 'angry' indians who have commented on this thread are ex-FSAE members. The rest of them are working hard to complete their cars for this season and have chosen wisely not to air their views.

As Nishant Jin says, lets get back to the real issue of solving problems related to FSAE.We all can argue endlessly on the fallacies of a country, but that's not going to solve the problem because the residents of that country already know about them. So please stop passing unnecessary statements and get back to the main point.

HOW DO WE HELP INDIAN TEAMS MAKE BETTER CARS?

As I mentioned in one of my earlier comments, the problems that Indian teams face are non technical. So we can attend 10 seminars on suspension design by Claude but the quality of cars will not improve. Only a person's knowledge will increase. That's because the problem is not "How to design a suspension" or "How to make a cost report". The problem is how do we integrate the Level 1 goals with the other levels. How do we motivate demoralized members to continue another year after having failed miserably even though they put in the same effort as their counterparts in Europe, Australia and USA. How do we convince the university to support a student project when culture dictates that academic performance and grades is the most important thing. How do we convince prospective members to give up their studies when they know that companies prefer a student with a 9.0 GPA with no practical experience to one with a 6.0 GPA and 2 years FSAE experience.

We need help with Project Management rather than part design. I know that Claude is very angry with Indian teams performance, but you need to have patience. The situation is improving but it will take time..5 years maybe 10. BUT WE WILL DO IT!

I want to make 3 suggestions how others could help us:-
1. The next time Claude has a seminar in India, he can devote 1 day to Project Management
2. Big Bird could have a series of webinars( not free, of course)on his famous thread for Indian teams.
3. Or why not combine both. Maybe Claude could bring Big Bird with him to India and conduct a joint seminar. (crazy idea!)

Claude/Big Bird- Please give your thoughts on these suggestions and whether they are possible.Also give other ideas. We need to act soon.

[Claude Rouelle]

I can give you very simple 101 car design and basic project management courses. Other judges or experienced person in FS / FSG like Big Bird or Pat Clark or Steve Fox could even do a better job than me.... But I can't help to ask
- Don't you have ANY basic machine design course, not even applied to a Formula Student course. Whoever experienced FSAE / FS person you would bring in the country he could not spend many weeks teaching these courses and you would not be able to come to the same India place. And it could be you need several weeks
- Same question for project management course... ?
- Let's say that some of the design judge would come for these courses the first thing they will ask you is how well do you understand the environment; how well do you measure the challenges do you measure cost, effort, time to success and especially how well do you understand rules: I had to teach a specific course on FSAE in one of your university I would make it a prerequisite to succeed to a car exam.
- Don't you have a racing federation or some kind of education organization of the Indian automotive industry who could generate and maybe sponsor such courses for you. The German organize seminar for their own students. SAE US is paying a few lecturers to go to some US universities to teach some if these basics. Nothing like that in India?

Claude

[Claude Rouelle]

I would make it a prerequisite to succeed to a car exam.

I meant "I would make it a prerequisite to succeed to an exam on rules knowledge".

[buzzmatrix]

In response to Claude's post above .


Here in Chennai there are a few racing teams since we have a track here. I am part of the Madras Institute of Technology SUPRA Team and we do contact these teams and ask them to vet our designs and give us suggestions to improve them which has helped us immensely but it is quite hard to catch a hold of these guys because they build race cars only as a hobby and they usually have a business to take care of and are usually very busy blokes. The SAE India does conduct a few workshops on short notice but only at one location for each topic which is not adequate for such a huge country and with different academic schedules. These racing teams will be ready to conduct workshops through the FMSCI (India's racing Federation) but only if someone takes initiative to organize it through the SAE INDIA.That would make a huge impact on the quality of cars that come out to the competition.

[Steve Fox]

This thread started off with good intentions, and it just keeps getting better. Pat keeps poking at the slower posters (who, quite simply, ‘don’t get it’) in a concerted effort to speed up the back-markers. You go Pat! Eventually all the Indian FSAE competitors will be buzzing right along at FSAE speed. It is inevitable!

Claude has contributed some real insight into the Indian problem. It took some large stones to put all of his hard accrued observations down on virtual paper. Inevitably a few posters mis-read his intentions, took offense, and as a result (normal human psychological response) went on the offensive themselves. There is no need for that. I can guarantee you that the rest of the world WANTS to see India succeed. It is through open discussion that the rest of us will see the problem for what it is, adapt, and then be able to offer the right kind of assistance to help bring Indian competitors up to speed.

Congratulations Claude! It takes big stones to bare it all in the interest of clearing up the muddy waters and doing what it takes to jump start this India project into inevitable success! I am glad you are on the Indian side!

Geoff (Big Bird) has a good grasp on FSAE, project management, and engineering in general. His post referred to on page 11 of this thread is a good read for all new Indian FSAE competitors. Start reading now.

Kevin Hayward is another visionary engineer, who can be relied upon to give you straight, honest advice. Listen carefully to Kevin. He is not blowing smoke up your skirt!

And now for the big news: Yes, FSAE/FS is really just a big project management competition. We often say that we use motorsports and fast cars to lure you into the biggest project management program of your young lives. Yes it is a cruel trick, but like moths drawn to a flame, the testosterone laden young males come willingly. However, when it is all over, you don’t get killed by the flame. Instead, you get the education of a lifetime, which puts you on the career fast track, like no other educational experience on earth!

I read an interesting term in this thread: ‘Resume guys’. It is appropriate. If you are simply going along with FSAE so you can list it on your resume, you, quite simply, don’t get it. FSAE takes diligence, determination, passion, cunning, and sweat. Not every engineering student can cut it in FSAE. And you know what? I’m OK with that. If you expect to be able to land the best jobs in the automotive, aerospace, and motorsports industries, you had better be good. You had better be ‘FSAE Good’!

I have been told over and over by the best FSAE/FS Faculty Advisors in the world, that the best FSAE students are not always the ones with the best GPA’s. They are the ones who are in the lab (shop) after midnight building & assembling. They are the ones who do not have girlfriends, or a social life, or spare time, or extra money. They are the ones who legitimately get to list FSAE on their resumes!

Mustafa makes reference to Dick Golembiewski’s (pronounced Gome-be-yef-skee) paper: ‘Managing Student Vehicle Projects, the Non-Technical Side’. It is a great paper for students just starting down the road to FSAE. Dick revised the paper in 2008, just before he died. If you are new to FSAE: Read it!

Side story… Dick was a GREAT mentor. He attended college at Milwaukee School of Engineering (MSOE). As a student, he built and entered a car in the first ever FSAE competition (known at the time as ‘Mini Indy’). After graduation Dick took a job in the engineering department of Harley-Davidson for a short period (until Harley ran into big financial troubles in the early ‘80s). Dick then went back to MSOE as a professor.

As a professor at MSOE, Dick created their first ever vehicle dynamics curriculum. Dick was the faculty advisor for MSOE’s Mini Baja (what you now know as Baja SAE) and FSAE teams. There was a time (in the ‘80s) when MSOE teams OWNED the Baja SAE competitions, winning several years, sometimes, consecutive years in a row. This was in large part due to Dick’s exemplary teaching and mentoring skills. He had a knack for teaching you things... even stuff you thought you already knew.

The advantage of having a skilled Faculty Advisor cannot be overstated. It is the teaching and mentoring skills, in a great Faculty Advisor, which takes an average FSAE team and pushes them over the top to being a great FSAE team!

This thread got hijacked a little with stories of unsafe motoring in India. I challenge all Indian FSAE students right now to break the mold. Start wearing a seat belt. Start being the one to wear the helmet and eye protection on your motorcycle. Set the example for others to follow. Eventually they will follow, and you will then be looked upon as the Visionary leader(s) who changed a culture.

Safety must carry over into FSAE. Safety is your number one concern in FSAE. NUMBER ONE! You want an example? Google up ‘1955 Le Mans crash’. Look at the video. A Mercedes racecar went into the stands at that race. It was travelling well in excess of 125 mph (200 kph). It killed around a hundred people (the official number varies from 80 to 120). At the time, the Le Mans track was the original track (built in the early 1900s) designed for car speeds of 40 mph (65 kph). In 1955 racecars were exceeding 190 mph (305 kph).

A direct result of that crash was that Mercedes pulled out of all motorsports for the next 30 years. Jaguar also pulled out of any motorsports involvement for 30 years.

Pat and I are constantly reminding students ‘Those who cannot recall the past are destined to repeat it’. It is true. What do you think will happen if a car goes airborne at a SUPRASAE ‘race’, and goes into the crowd? It will kill people. The images will be flashed around the world in an instant. The negative impact on FSAE/FS competitions around the world will be long and ‘event changing’. DO NOT be the country to have the first FSAE accident, which kills someone!

FSAE is a college level, student engineering competition. The Endurance segment of a FSAE Event is a competition, NOT a race! There IS a big difference. You quite simply DO NOT put two FSAE cars on a track at the same time where they have even a remote possibility of rubbing wheels. It is UNSAFE!

Set the example. Be the one to start wearing the helmet… a seat belt… a fire suit. Follow the FSAE rules of operation. They are in place for your safety.

Where do I stand?
SUPRASAE: Unsafe event. At the very least, it needs a thorough safety overhaul, from the ground up. Handing students a ‘spec powertrain’, which they cannot modify is not FSAE. No car operating at SUPRASAE is built well enough to compete at any other FSAE competition. SUPRASAE needs to operate under the official FSAE rules.

SAE India: I have just recently started working with SAE INDIA. Great organization. They are listening and paying attention. Pat has alluded to changes ‘in the wind’. Watch SAE India. The change is coming! I guarantee it.

HANS device: Yes I advocate safety. However, we also try to balance economy with safety whenever possible. At the speeds that FSAE cars are held to, and if the FSAE tracks are designed per the FSAE rules (in order to limit top end speeds) a HANS device does not need to be mandated. Mandating use of a HANS device is something for the FSAE Rules Committee to decide, which I know has been discussed recently.

Class 1 cars: The only way to go, as far as I am concerned.

Class 2 cars (second year cars): If you are a junior college and simply cannot manage to get a FSAE car built in one year, then maybe a Class 2 car has some merit. If you come to a FS competition with a Class 2 car, you had better understand it, and the changes you made to it over the past year.

Virtual FSAE: A complete waste of time and effort. The purpose of FSAE is to build something. You are already getting an engineering education. You need to be able to apply that education. THAT is FSAE. Some students can’t cut it in FSAE. If you want to do virtual anything, go find another college competition to enter. There are plenty others out there…

We Design Judges discuss India… a lot. We are continually looking for ways to get Indian teams to improve. One evening, over dinner in Germany a few years ago, Pat and I discussed how an Indian team would go about designing and building a FSAE car which is within the ability, materials resources, and budget of the average Indian team.

The car we designed (literally on the back of a napkin) would:
Be designed with clearly defined goals, aimed at maximizing points scored.
Finish ALL segments of a FSAE Competition (Static and Dynamic).
Potentially win Fuel Efficiency.
Potentially win Cost.
Place relatively high in the Design Event, because it would be superbly defended by the team which built it, BECAUSE it would be so simple, the team would have a clear and intimate understanding of ALL aspects of the vehicle design and manufacture.
Be gasoline powered. (Tuned to run on the local benzene. When we put good gas in it at competition, even better.)
Be submitted with an exemplary Design Report, Design Spec Sheet, Cost Report, etc.
Be extremely lightweight. (We projected 350 pounds (160 kilos)) (Using NO exotic materials or exotic parts not commonly available ‘in-country’.)
Be a ‘simple’ car, with NO extra bells and whistles.
Have an extreme minimum electrical system.
Be built with materials readily available ‘in-country’ (including engine, brakes, shocks, etc.).
Be a rather interesting approach, Which neither Pat nor I have seen at a competition yet.
Cost less than $2,000 USD to build (not counting the team’s labor).
Would be clean enough to EAT off of!

If you want to learn more about this car, go search out Pat’s posts over the past few years. He has discussed this in the past, just not all at once… If you read enough of his posts you will be able to piece together most of this design.

Why don’t I just tell you what ‘the design’ is? There is an old saying: ‘Give a man a fish and you will feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you will feed him for a lifetime.’ I don’t want to see just one Indian team succeed. I want to change a culture, and see India succeed!

Why do I tell you this? Because I have recently pledged my assistance to seeing the India FSAE ‘problem’ through to a logical conclusion. You will be learning more about this in the months to come, but a group of us are working together to ensure the success of FSAE India.

Stay tuned…

[AngryIndian]

Originally posted by Claude Rouelle:
I can give you very simple 101 car design and basic project management courses. Other judges or experienced person in FS / FSG like Big Bird or Pat Clark or Steve Fox could even do a better job than me.... But I can't help to ask
- Don't you have ANY basic machine design course, not even applied to a Formula Student course. Whoever experienced FSAE / FS person you would bring in the country he could not spend many weeks teaching these courses and you would not be able to come to the same India place. And it could be you need several weeks
- Same question for project management course... ?
- Let's say that some of the design judge would come for these courses the first thing they will ask you is how well do you understand the environment; how well do you measure the challenges do you measure cost, effort, time to success and especially how well do you understand rules: I had to teach a specific course on FSAE in one of your university I would make it a prerequisite to succeed to a car exam.
- Don't you have a racing federation or some kind of education organization of the Indian automotive industry who could generate and maybe sponsor such courses for you. The German organize seminar for their own students. SAE US is paying a few lecturers to go to some US universities to teach some if these basics. Nothing like that in India?

Claude

Hello Claude,

1. Yes, we have Mechanical/Machine Design courses in our universities. But the problem is that they concentrate more on theory than practical applications. It is left to us to figure out how to apply the principles we learn to FSAE.

2. No, we dont have any project management or systems engineering courses in any university. That's why I'm emphasizing so much on it.

3. Yes, I agree with you. An FSAE rules exam must be conducted before any such course is started. If a person does not know the rules, he/she should not be allowed to take the course.

4.Yes, we do have SAE India. But I am not sure whether they conduct any course. I haven't seen any advertisement related to that yet.

I agree it would be difficult for everyone to come to the same place in India for the entire duration of the course. We have vacations in all universities in December and June. But since everyone is busy with their cars, it would be tough to attend. I think a paid webinar series would be a good idea at this time. I also believe that it would be very inspirational for everyone to interact with you/Pat Clarke/Steve Fox/Geoff through a webinar once a week.

Please let me know your thoughts on this.

[AngryIndian]

@ All Indian teams- Since we are approaching the start of the FSAE European season, I think its a good idea to make sure cars are able to pass scrutineering. Many times, Indian cars take a lot of time in scrutineering because of inadequate preparation, negligence or lack of knowledge of rules. Please read and re-read every single rule and ensure the car conforms to them. In case there is any doubt, you can ask here. You can post photos too and take opinions from experienced people on the forum. Of course they are not the final authority but they will be able to help you in most cases. You can also contact the rules committee.

Some of you may think that if you post photos of your car, it would be embarrassing or people may make fun of it. But look at it this way- in case you dont get your designs verified now, you would be an embarrassment for the entire competition and most importantly you may not even pass tech. So just get your doubts cleared now.

"If you ask a doubt, you run the risk of being stupid for 5 minutes. If you don't ask, you run the risk of being stupid for the rest of your life"- Claude Rouelle

[Claude Rouelle]

Ans please guys refrain to do stupid things at the last minute ...

In 2009 I was at the design part of FSAE India In Chennai. In order for their car to look good a team decided to paint their steering wheel.... just a few minutes before I judge their car. As I wanted to evaluate the steering stiffness, I grabbed the steering wheel and ... you know what happened.

Nobody was a winner in this little incident; the team wasn't, I wasn't... any of the other competitor was...
Embarrassing..

Just use a bit of common sense guys...

Claude

[Claude Rouelle]

2. No, we dont have any project management or systems engineering courses in any university. That's why I'm emphasizing so much on it.

I went on youtube and saw several hours of free of charge project management course (from IIT by the way). Seems a bit theoretical or rhetorical, at first glance, but there must be a few courses like those that would teach some good advice to build a FSAE, no?

[Claude Rouelle]

4.Yes, we do have SAE India. But I am not sure whether they conduct any course. I haven't seen any advertisement related to that yet.

What are you waiting to call them and ask?

[ed_pratt]

Originally posted by Claude Rouelle:
I went on youtube and saw several hours of free of charge project management course (from IIT by the way). Seems a bit theoretical or rhetorical, at first glance, but there must be a few courses like those that would teach some good advice to build a FSAE, no?

There are loads...

Just to give a hint, Massachusetts has quite a good university with lots of open courses. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Z]

Originally posted by Steve Fox:
One evening, over dinner in Germany a few years ago, Pat and I discussed how an Indian team would go about designing and building a FSAE car which is within the ability, materials resources, and budget of the average Indian team.

The car we designed (literally on the back of a napkin) would:
...
Be extremely lightweight. (We projected 350 pounds (160 kilos)) (Using NO exotic materials or exotic parts not commonly available ‘in-country’.)
...
Cost less than $2,000 USD to build (not counting the team’s labor).

If you want to learn more about this car, go search out Pat’s posts over the past few years. He has discussed this in the past, just not all at once… If you read enough of his posts you will be able to piece together most of this design.
Hmmmmm?????

Given that for as long as I can remember Pat has advised students to build a spaceframe car, with 600cc 4-cylinder sportsbike engine, 13" wheels, pushrods and rockers, etc. and etc., what has changed?

Pat?

Anyone else got a clue what this 160kg, $2k car would look like?

(Is it brown??? http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif)

Z

[AngryIndian]

Originally posted by ed_pratt:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Claude Rouelle:
I went on youtube and saw several hours of free of charge project management course (from IIT by the way). Seems a bit theoretical or rhetorical, at first glance, but there must be a few courses like those that would teach some good advice to build a FSAE, no?

There are loads...

Just to give a hint, Massachusetts has quite a good university with lots of open courses. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah I know that there are many such courses online, but will FSAE members spend time watching them? When Claude's name is attached to any FSAE event, students will be automatically attracted like paparazzi to Angelina Jolie or like flies to..you know what. We saw that at the seminar in Pune when 131 people attended. SAE India does not conduct any such workshops.

Since I am working in an automotive company and no longer directly connected to FSAE, the current teams should decide on this. I believe that it is very important for teams to get knowledge on Project Management too and this can be achieved either by Claude spending a couple of days on this topic during his next visit to India or by him or some other experienced person hosting a webinar session once a week.
I know it would be difficult for everyone to come to the same place but if you can successfully conduct a seminar once, you can easily do it again.

[Claude Rouelle]

SAE India does not conduct any such workshops.
SAE India does not conduct any such workshops.

Are you sure? Did you ask? Would you be able to have them or any Indian automotive industry teaching you? Did you or any Indian FSAE / FS team ever asked SAE India? If not why not? Come on guys the answer could be, at least in part, from within....

Asking for help and support is not different than for a guy asking a girl for date: If you do not want to know, do not ask. But if you ask and the answer is not the one you hoped for, do not be pissed at yourself for asking.

The very worse answer you can have is a NO. What else do you have to risk?

Whether it is me me or any any experienced FS / FSAE coming ot Indian to share with you knowledge, skills, experience and perspectives there will be a need of demonstration of your desire to learn and improve.

I can shop for you foo all the ingredients for dinner, can cook for you and even put it in your mouth put I cannot digest it for you...

Something, , a first credible step has to be done by one of you...

Time to show some guts and some leadership, guys... How will be the first Indian showing that he cares for his country and the whole Indian FSAE effort at least as much as he cares about himself and his own team? Who would that be?

You can talk the talk, but can you walk the walk?

Claude

[Big Bird]

Fully agreed with Claude. There are people around here who can give you guidance - but in your request for guidance there is an implication that you want to be led. And is that what you REALLY want???

The successful teams I've seen have strong leadership and a vision of what they are capable of, what they can build upon and where they want to go. With this comes team confidence, harmony, and momentum to push through the project.

On the flipside, (and no disrespect to the gent who suggested it) a team that subscribes to a weekly webinar / advice session is effectively outsourcing the team leadership into discrete, weekly quanta. Such a team with thus "work" on a bit of a square-wave output cycle. Good (or otherwise!) advice is absorbed => actions taken => problems identified => questions raised => ..... and here we grind to a halt. The effective leader ain't around until the next webinar, and the team either:
1). Stands around too scared to make a decision on their own (i.e. team goes nowhere), or
2). Makes an ill-informed decision because leader hasn't been understood and is not there to guide them (i.e. team might go backwards OR might go sideways OR might go forwards), or
3). Asks someone else for advice in the meantime and gets led in a different direction again (i.e. team goes backwards, AND goes sideways, AND goes forwards all at once => team rips itself to shreds...)

Here comes another well-intentioned but meandering, possibly tiresome and probably completely ineffective metaphor to put a point...

Managing one of these projects is like riding a motorcycle through deep sand. To succeed you need to know where you want to go and you need to focus on it. You keep your throttle pinned, your momentum up and your gaze planted far ahead, and you'll hit that target point - even if you drifted off-line a bit on the way. But the minute you start lowering your gaze, the moment you start worrying about whether your path is the right one, the moment you start reacting to where the front wheel is going and what is happening underneath you in the here and now - well that bike is going to throw you into one hell of a tank-slapper and you are going to bite it big time.

So to the Indian teams, well I'm flattered that you have asked for my assistance and I'm happy to help where I can - but I'd suggest there is not much I can add that I haven't already written in "Reasoning...." So my suggestion is:
* Understand your resources and limitations
* Understand where your resources and limitations align with the points available for this competition
* Set yourself a direction and a destination, (i.e. your vehicle concept) and make sure your team all agrees why you have chosen that direction
* Take aim at where you want to go, pin the throttle and hang on for the ride of your life

I'm happy to help where I can when you are first choosing a direction. But to succeed you are going to have to make pretty hard decisions about what direction you are going to take, quickly, based on limitations and resources that only you understand. And if you are going to try to ride along that beach, and think that you might also like to look around a bit to see whether myself / Claude / Pat / Steve / Kev / your teachers / your fellow countrymen etc approve of where you are headed - well that bike is just going to keep pitching you on your head until you won't want to play any more.

Hope all that made sense to you. I reckon it is all a load of nonsense and lost track of it all about three paragraphs ago...

Cheers http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Claude Rouelle]

There are too many of "tell me what to do" or "give us the formula" or "give us the sheet and we will fill up the blanks" in India...

We are the toolbox and you are the mechanic. At least one of you is the mechanic with leadership and this guy will decide which tools he need from the toolbox and what he wants to do with it.

In other words we can teach you hours and hours, days and days and weeks and weeks of course, but is YOUR idea of what is the most need course and besides listening to the "teachers", what action will YOU take after the course?

So that is the same question I had in my previous. out of all the Indian people who have contributed and who did read to this forum on Indian teams, WHO will be the one to have the guts to call SAE India or any good organization or Indian automotive company to support an education which will make competitive Indian FSAE cars?

Who would that be? Who is the leader?

Claude

[Claude Rouelle]

Heloooo Anybody there...

Interesting...

Tons on post including complains / suggestions / what is right and wrong with Indian team sand car, what has to be and can be improved. Then suddenly when it is about to make something happen it seems nobody put himself in line to lead the effort on the India side...

Let's say a group of experienced FS / FSAE (including design judges) want to offer time and advice to you and a plan to help you with your team and car improvement.

We need somebody, a leader, an organization at the other end of the line to coordinate and organize these actions inside India.

I just had a few ideas of how together we could analyze your cars for the benefit of the Indian FSAE community but I need one of you to be the coordinators and the initiator of these actions.

Heloooo?

Claude

[AngryIndian]

I sent an email to the Executive Director of SAE India to ask for his help to organize a course/seminar which would help us in making better cars. Ill give them a call if I dont get any response

[Claude Rouelle]

AngryIndian,

Good move!

Claude

[Big Bird]

Bravo!

The greatest of journeys begin with a single step...

[ben]

Originally posted by AngryIndian:

1. Yes, we have Mechanical/Machine Design courses in our universities. But the problem is that they concentrate more on theory than practical applications. It is left to us to figure out how to apply the principles we learn to FSAE.


And you don't see that as a massive opportunity??? I went to the University of Birmingham which is part of the "Russell Group" in the UK, i.e. a poor man's Ivy league despite their pretensions. It's chock full of theoreticians who wouldn't know practical application if it punched them in the face.

I'm not saying that's a bad thing, it depends on what the goal is - seemingly research grant money and nothing else in this case. But to claim that it's a problem particular to India and a reason why your FSAE team's not that great then I'm sorry you're deluding yourself and writing an excuse book.

The reality is that once you've sourced an engine (I know that's hard in India relative the Europe and the US) you could read every post on this BB - mainly stuff by Claude, Kevin, Geoff, Steve Fox and Pat Clarke, plus maybe a couple of Carroll Smith Books and RCVD and build a competitive car that could finish top half of any comp.

Ben

[Big Bird]

Any news?

[Claude Rouelle]

Yep.. I was thinking the same..

Problem to solve, major challenges.... Any leadership to face them?

Claude

[Claude Rouelle]

I don't know for sure is Raun is from India (just a guess) but what I see at

http://fsae.com/eve/forums/a/t...607348/m/80220066151 (http://fsae.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/125607348/m/80220066151)

is very symptomatic from India "freshness" in their FSAE / FS involvement.

Needy, demanding, impatient and unwilling to first find a solution on their own. Again I know most of you will be hurt reading this and again that is not my goal. It is not only about you but also about how other people right or wrong perceive you. And sometimes perception becomes reality.

I invite you to
A Think about the following
1. Who I am (objective definition of yourself, very difficult as a person even more as group)
2. Who I think I am (much mire subjective definition, open to many different interpretations)
3. What other people think I am (what the others think of me)
4. What I think other people think I am (that starts to be complicated...)
B. Search info on the window of Johary but you will have to go though the pain of searching...)

Many of you thought I wash bashing against India and Indian in this forum a few weeks ago. If I hurt them I apologize. I do like your country and I do love to spend time in India (for professional reasons or not) But the goal was not only to critic India and Indians (although I still believe you can not solve a problem unless you know you have one and how extensive it is). It is also about Indian guys to understand how they are perceived via the FSAE /FS competition.. )

Whoever experienced race car engineer / design judge / former successful FSAE / FS student come to teach you a seminar there is a still, a cultural issue and an "first learning steps" attitude you will have to acquire on your own and with the help of your colleagues. I think Orion racing guys (the "most" successful Indian team I know - but gain everything is relative and I can't wait them to prove me wrong this summer FS competitions) should be able to play a major role is this sharing of knowledge. But again , back to the beginning of this forum, if it is about losing your "competitive edge"....

Claude

[jlangholzj]

The only real difference I see between an "indian" school and some stateside are the team members. There's plenty of smaller schools here that don't have a strong emphasis in FSAE support but its the students that are willing to jump in and have the drive and passion to make it into something bigger. Its getting over the hump of "oh crap...i know absolutely nothing" that's the hard part. Once you take an attitude of "lets do this!" things start to change.

You can't be afraid to jump in and make mistakes otherwise nothing will be gained. I think Einstein once said something along the lines of "anyone who has never made a mistake obviously hasn't tried something new".

It took us a good solid 6 years of hard work to go from a platform that actually passed Tech to something that we were proud to have and something that performed well. I think over the course of 4 years we lost about 12 girlfriends to that fact as well. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

don't expect to be handed a golden platter with the answers, dig down on your own and get going and at that point there's lots of guys that will be willing to help. Hell we've all been there before!

[Claude Rouelle]

What is Go Blue Go Fast Go Jacks? Which university are you from?

[SoonerJack]

Jacks should be Wild Hare Racing of South Dakota State.


Anyway: If you look through the new programme of Formula Student UK, there are some interessting and nice Indian cars in it. Kharagpur and Delhi seem to make nice impressions. And Thapar with a 190kg car...

Hopefully they look as good in real life.

Will you be in Silverstone, Claude?

[Claude Rouelle]

I will be in Silverstone. I would like to be surprised but I have had so many disappointments with Indian cars that I will not hold my breath. But I am still hoping ... otherwise I would not contribute to this forum.

Thapar 190 kg with what engine? If it is a 4 cylinders that is OK. With a mono cylinder....

Claude

[Kevin Hayward]

RMIT won the UK with a single cylinder car that was around 190kg back in 2004. Frankly if I saw an Indian team with a well prepared single that was 190kg I would think that it was a step forward. While it likely wouldn't win any comps it should place mid pack.

Of course RMIT's overweight single was one step towards a new philosophy for the team. One that led them to rank number one in the world. Why is it that teams with well defined direction do well?

Kev

[Rex Chan]

Claude - Monash will be coming to FSUK, and at FSAE-A 2011, their KTM single car was around 200kg, though I think there have been some weight reductions since then. I watched the YouTube vids of Formula North and the Design Review - great thing to have, but I don't agree with your highlighting of weight. And new FSAEers might take your opening remarks of "cute, sexy", etc as a guide to making cars that are primarily that.

My thoughts on weight is that it is a better learning experience to build a heavy, reliable car that you can test and learn from, than a light car that breaks, and future teams cannot test + learn from.

[Claude Rouelle]

Rex,

"but I don't agree with your highlighting of weight"...

If you car was under 140 Kg you would agree. Let's stay objective: run your simulation and tell me what is the lap time gain per kg saved, per N of aero downforce and per Hp of your engine. Them please share with us your opinion on priorities.

Kev,

"RMIT ... a single cylinder car that was around 190kg back in 2004" It is true but that was 8 years ago! ..... Now ETS is at 132kg, same type of car. All things being equal, if you had a choice to make between a 190kg and 132 kg car, which car would you choose?

"If I saw an Indian team with a well prepared single that was 190kg I would think that it was a step forward" I completely, totally agree! I was just reacting to Sooner Jack "Kharagpur and Delhi seem to make nice impressions. And Thapar with a 190kg car" Whatever country a car would come from I would not call a 190 KG one cylinder car a nice impression. I will have a better idea in a few days... Can't wait.

Claude

[JulianH]

According to the programme, it is a CBR 600.

190kg would be a very nice number for this concept (Stuttgart had around 192kg last year).

[Kevin Hayward]

Claude, even though it was 8 years ago RMIT managed to beat a 150kg single from Delft. And while Delft did not finish endurance even if they had matched RMIT for both pace and fuel use they would have lost the event. We have seen much quicker and reliable lightweight cars since then but a lot of the older quick cars (with their teams) would still compete well today.

All other things equal (which they rarely are) each kg is worth roughly 1-1.5 kg dynamically. I give a range mainly due to variability of concepts, track layout and differences in fuel rules.

On a non aero 4 cylinder car back around 300kg with 80kg driver it was worth around 1.2 points per kilo. If you run aero and/or a single cylinder the weight is generally more important (one to increase normalised aero, the other to account for low power and increase maximum fuel economy), tyre heat issues can make the weight worth less. You have to be a little careful assigning a direct points benefit per kg as it tends to be valid for limited local optimisation. Furthermore you need to consider the way you are losing weight. Low weight at the cost of dynamic behaviour or reliability ends up being not worth as much, and often difficult to include in a simulation.

One of the larger areas that adds importance to weight is the design tent. A well built 150kg single has a chance of making design finals, where a 190kg single almost certainly wouldn't. This is most likely in the region of 30-50 points in that event. So all up the 40kg or so extra weight of a 190kg single will cost up to 100 points in the competition, assuming that the car otherwise was a top level competitor. If they were further down the potential loss of points for design is less and reliability is more important. Might only be worth 40 points.

Look at the most recent competition at Lincoln the winner scored 861 points. Even losing 100 points due to the high weight the potential finishing place would have been 6th place.

It begs the question what sort of points haul would I look for for the first time at an international comp. I would probably aim for around 500-550 points. This would probably place you in the top 20 at Lincoln, top ten of Australia, and top 25 of Detroit. The big question is how you could achieve this?

Between the cost event and the marketing event you could probably make 150 points. Well designed cars even if heavy can score close to 100, just make sure that the weight is the only issue and where it has been added it has been used primarily for reliability, cost and ease of manufacture. That means you are sitting at 250 points (or halfway) after only the static events. The best thing about these events is it is up to your preparation and other teams have little impact on your scores.

30 in Skidpan is pretty reasonable as is around 35 in Acceleration. Autocross is a tough one and you may only want to aim for 50 points. Fuel economy could get you close to 100, much less if you are running at a fuel efficiency event so lets say 50 points. This leaves you with 85 points to get in Endurance which is quite straightforward.

All up you have got your 500 points, been the most successful Indian team in FSAE, plenty of comp experience and ready for the next challenge of 600 points next comp. The good part of this approach is that you can get this points score with almost any main vehicle concept even if it is substantially overweight. The hard part is that your static event preparation, manufacturing, mechanical design, and team management need to good.

Kev

[jlangholzj]

Originally posted by JD944:
According to the programme, it is a CBR 600.

190kg would be a very nice number for this concept (Stuttgart had around 192kg last year).

we came in at 195 kilos with an R6r this year...as well as last year. (space frame) Tried shaving weight this year but we added a lot of extra things to the car as well...lol...whoops..

I was talking with our '12 lead eng. last night when we were down at the shop kicking dust and my thought is that if i had to do it all over again, I'd say start with a single.

my reasoning:

1) lighter
2) less effect on the restriction
3) easier to manufacture parts (intake and exhaust primarily)
4) easier to get running well (sequential injection...etc)
5) simpler

With a single, there's no firing order, timing is pretty obvious, you're not going to have to worry about starving your outer two cylinders with air (intake design)....about the only bad thing i can think of is that generally speaking singles are typically "louder" than what quads are...but thats even a perceived "loudness" (due to lower frequencies...etc). Fuel econ score should be pretty good if you get it locked in (i think we were 11th with e85...and there's STILL more to be taken out!).

i think for a first year team, hitting a 230-250 kilo single should be a very achievable goal that would lend to having lots of weight shaved from it and improvements for following years.

[Claude Rouelle]

Kev,

Your analysis on performance / reliability / chance to get points here and there Vs team experience and skills is absolutely correct. In fact may team lack such excellent approach. But you took my weight consideration out of context.

1. All things being equal would you prefer a car at 150 or at 180kg? Come on...

2. Look at a curve of your tire Mu Vs Fz.... It is not only about trying to impress the design judges; it is about looking at what the weight does on your lap time and your energy consumption. Reliability? F = ma correct? How stiff does your chassis / your upright / your wishbones need to be if your car is 150 Kg, driver included.. ? Many experienced judges who are involved in race car manufacturing will agree with me: it is possible to make a car at 130 kg and making it relatively cheap and reliable....if it is part of the team goals. Not the first year but a 3 or 4 years experienced team.

3 And this is my main point. An Audi A3 2012 is 82 kg lighter than last year. Today race car manufacturers make cars at the weight limit (despite they have with KERS or are Hybrid) and use ballast to lower the CG or change the weight distribution and/or the yaw inertia. A former FSAE student now working in the aircraft industry told me that they are now manufacturing little parts which look like a FS toe link which are eight time lighter; EIGHT TIMES LIGHTER. On top of manufacturing cost, the whole automotive and aircraft industry has 2 major challenges; less energy consumption and more material recycling ability. Reducing weight is now a major target. Much more than pure performance. FSAE / FS is about enabling students to acquire skills that they will use a few years later in the industry. See my point: also out of context but with a larger perspective, bigger than just the FS / FSAE competition itself.

Let's go back to point 2. Let's say your car, driver included, is 200 KG. with a MU of 1.5 that is 300O N of lateral force. Brutal and simplified explanation.
Now if you car and driver are 300 kg wit a Mu of 1.4 (ah yeah the Mu goes down with the weight!) that will make 4200 N. Even if you use FEA at its best you will need bigger rod ends and bigger suspension tubes and stiffer chassis; inevitably that means more weight.... That is the beginning of the crescendo towards the disaster of fat cars!

That is not different that the aircraft you want to fly 5000 instead of 3000 miles; need more fuel-> heavier so now to take off need bigger engine -> bigger engine = bigger fuel consumption and so on....


Claude

[Kevin Hayward]

Claude,

I should have put a break in the last post as it wasn't all meant as a reply to your previous posts. I was trying to help by putting some numbers to the weight equation.

I think every team should be aiming to win competitions, even the Indian teams. They need to take steps towards it. Weight is a very big factor in this and you have put it very clearly by saying a heavy car needs heavier parts to resist the loads and starts to snowball. Worse is that with the better implementations of singles and the changes to Aero regulations weight is now more important than ever. If we assume a constant friction coefficent we have lateral accelleration defined by the following relationship:

a = (g + Downforce / mass) * mu

Obviously mu is load dependent, however in the past you could make a case for heavier cars not losing out too much due to the lighter cars not getting tyres up to temperature easily. However the Fd/m term makes mass much more important.

Addittionally the fuel economy being increased from 50 to 100 points means that fuel lost to weight is much more important than previously. There are only two real ways to use less fuel. One is to go slower the other is to weigh less. For a car at the same speed fuel use should be linear with mass. That means the 150kg car (+80kg driver) will use 85% of the fuel of the 190kg car. For a Vmin of 2.5 litres this works out as 14 points alone. So yes Claude I would definitely take the 150kg car over the 190kg.

One of the things I think about with weight reduction is what you are stuck with conceptually and what is up for grabs. For example a 13" four cylinder car has approximtaely 60kg in the engine, 25kg in chassis (to meet rules minimums), and 10kg in tyres. Lets round up to 100kg and assume we take in some other rules compliant items. The fours then vary from about 170kg to 230kg (about 40kg heavier than the single cylinder range). This means in weight reduction terms a team that gets 170kg has all the rest for 70kg vs the 130kg for the 230kg car. This is almost half the weight (vs 73% on the total weight) for every other non required item. That is a huge achievement and very difficult to do without making hard decisions, and very hard to do non-conceptually.

If we took a 230kg car and just started individual weight reduction (of the non required weight) it would mean every 1/4" bolt would become 1/8" bolts. Upright sheet steel will be 0.5mm thick instead of 1mm. Yet this is not possible if the parts were well sized in the first place. While the material for each item has halved the total weight including driver has only dropped by 20%. That is a recipe for failure.

What that means is that only 20% of your weight savings from 230kg to 170kg can generally come from downsizing components (in this case 12kg). Any further and you reduce safety factors. This means that the snowballing weight idea is not dominant. The bulk of the weight reduction must come conceptually. This means reduction in number of parts, redesigning load paths, better materials and so on.

One of the best places to look for weight reduction is when doing up bolts. Every bolt exists solely to join one part to another part. When putting a bolt on the car you should be thinking do I need a separate part for what I am attaching. Is this system necessary for performance? Do we want an adjustable pedal box? Do we want a drive by wire throttle? Do we want a multi-part plenum? Do we want a push button shifter? Is it better to combine the oil cooler and dry-sump tank? Is it better to combine the tripod housing and the hub? In some cases the answer will be yes in others no.

The simple message on weight is that if you have a porker you have much more design work to do than just reducing wall thicknesses and sacrificing reliabity.

Kev

[MH]

Originally posted by Kevin Hayward:
Claude, even though it was 8 years ago RMIT managed to beat a 150kg single from Delft. And while Delft did not finish endurance even if they had matched RMIT for both pace and fuel use they would have lost the event.
Kev

Kev, in 2004 going into endurance Delft had a whopping 3 point lead over RMIT. So it would have been close considering the Delft car was 127kg with respect to fuel. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

But I kinda have to object to the suggestion on this forum that lightweight cars are by definition (mechnically) unreliable. From 2006 to 2011 Delft competed in 11 competitions and only once suffered a mechanical/structural failure (in 2009 when the glue on the driveshaft failed). 3 other times (2x bad wiring, 1x relay) it was electrical. But no rod-ends, wishbones, inserts, diff, rims, brake discs, brackets (have you seen how tiny those things are???), pedals etc.

The trick is to get your design fundementals (such as load paths!) right. Then it's no rocket science to build a decent reliable lightweight car. And it sure makes it a hell of a lot easier to do well in comp http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Cheers,
Miki Hegedus

[ben]

Originally posted by Claude Rouelle:
Now ETS is at 132kg, same type of car. All things being equal, if you had a choice to make between a 190kg and 132 kg car, which car would you choose?


Hi Claude - good to catch up at Lime Rock this weekend. Looking forward to Silverstone this week too.

Without wanting to be a smart-arse tyre guy (too late I suspect... ;-) ) but I think at 132Kg you are potentially risking not being able to get enough energy into the tyre to make the compound work.

That's not to say you couldn't do a lot of suspension work (particularly dampers) to fix that, but it's not necessarily trivial. A lot of the advice out there(including OptimumG Tech Tips ;-) ) is for rebound biased damping, when that isn't necessarily appropriate, and will work the tyre less.

I went through this when we tried (and ultimately failed sadly) to develop an FSAE tyre. The team who ran it on a 200Kg car were happy enough, but the team with a 160Kg car and "rig optimised" suspension generated the cube root of f*** all tyre temp and hated them.

Ben

[Z]

Originally posted by Kevin Hayward:
The bulk of the weight reduction must come conceptually. This means reduction in number of parts...
Kevin,

I agree 100% with the above. Not only does "the part that is not there" weigh nothing, but it also costs nothing, is effortless to design, has perfect reliability, etc., etc.

In fact, I'm still waiting for someone to justify the wasted weight, time, and money, expended on pushrods and rockers (not to mention the double wishbones!). http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


There are only two real ways to use less fuel. One is to go slower the other is to weigh less.
Sorry, but I can't agree on that one.

IMO the best way to win Fuel Efficiency is to build a "low drag, constant speed car".

Low drag comes primarily from efficient aero, namely streamlining (eg. wheel pods!) and downforce from the underbody rather than from an "airbrake" (= high mounted rear wing).

Constant speed implies corner speeds of ~50kph, so that a race winning average speed can be maintained with minimal braking and subsequent acceleration (= fuel burn). This suggests (necessitates?) aero downforce. As you pointed out low weight + downforce makes achieving high corner speeds easier, but low weight itself is not absolutely essential (heavy car just needs more downforce).

Think roller-coasters. They are fast with no fuel burn.
~~~o0o~~~

Ben,

The way to get heat into the tyres of a lightweight car, is to squash them onto the track with lots of aero downforce! The tyres don't know, or care, where the Fz comes from. 1,000N of gravity feels just the same as 500N gravity + 500N aero.

Z

[ben]

Originally posted by Z:

Ben,

The way to get heat into the tyres of a lightweight car, is to squash them onto the track with lots of aero downforce! The tyres don't know, or care, where the Fz comes from. 1,000N of gravity feels just the same as 500N gravity + 500N aero.

Z

True, but more Fz means more cornering stiffness, which means less lateral sliding energy, which means you need (or can use, depending on your perspective) softer compounds...

Which incidentally is why GT cars run harder compounds than LMP :-)

Ben

[Claude Rouelle]

Glad to see MH post! Many people in FS / FSAE think that a one cylinder is less reliable than a 4 cylinder and that a lighter chassis "necessarily" less reliable than a heavy one. OK maybe... but I keep asking them data to prove their case nothing objective has been shown to me and I still waiting

It is POSSIBLE to build a car light Stiff, cheap quick and reliable.

We often are in the box. Remember: "We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them” (Einstein)

Claude

[Claude Rouelle]

Ben,

The damper guide on the OptimumG website needs to be updated. I agree with you.

There are 5 ways I know of to get temperature in the tires
1. Aero downforce
2. Damping. More Bump than rebound
3. Track change (which means high roll center and that could cause other issues)
4. Good kinematic design particularly camber and toe change
5. Tire pressure

I SAW IR tire temp data of a FS car well under 150 Kg (+ 70 kg driver) reaching 80 - 90 deg C after 3 - 4 minutes on the track so it is possible.

See you tomorrow!

Claude

[Z]

Originally posted by Steve Fox (on page 14):
The car we designed (literally on the back of a napkin) would:
...
Be extremely lightweight. (We projected 350 pounds (160 kilos)) (Using NO exotic materials or exotic parts not commonly available ‘in-country’.)
...
Cost less than $2,000 USD to build (not counting the team’s labor).
Given all this talk about lightweight cars......

C'mon Pat..... What's changed?????

Z

[Claude Rouelle]

Sad news from UK Formula Student in Silverstone...

No one of the Indian teams which came here did compete; in fact not even one of them did even pass technical inspection...

Why coming from so far away and being so unprepared....

It is hurting.

Claude

[Zac]

I for one am shocked.

[The_Man]

Originally posted by Zac:
I for one am shocked.

Some how I am not shocked though.

This is really a step back for the Indian teams.
There is no excuse to become worse. Something needs to be done.

There is some activity on the a FSAE Indian team Facebook group (Since this seems to be the forum of choice now a days). If you were at the competitions please join this group. We are planning to collect feedback from all the teams first and then judges and other teams at the competition. I think how ever most of us know what the issues are. The group is closed for now so it is not public domain to start with. I think that will allow more free discussion.

https : / / www . facebook . com / groups / 345409438868469 /

[AngryIndian]

The idea of asking someone from SAE India to conduct a seminar was stupid. I am not even goingto follow up with them. They have graduated from the same colleges when the education system was worse and worked in the same companies when corruption was more. I have realized that the only way performance of Indian tea,ms will improve is if:-

1. The population of India decreases
2. The number of engineering jobs increases
3. The education system improves drastically
4. Companies hire on the basis of talent not academic performance.
5. There is a support system from the government, universities and companies for improving innovation.

If anyone hjas solutions to these problems please suggest

Otherwise, be prepared to be shocked with the performance of Indian teams for the next 5 years. Better concentrate on improving results of UK teams which is the center of motorsports and still underperform. Results might be more immediate there.

[Gaanja]

I have a better chance of walking on the moon than any of those things listed happening in the near future.

One of the biggest problems with most Indian teams (in my opinion) is that the members of the team who return from an event immediately leave the team to follow more career enhancing ventures. There is close to zero interaction between that team and the next. Hence every year there is a requirement to start almost from scratch. If alumni take an active responsibility in guiding the team to make decisions, it will greatly help. Event experience is invaluable.

Secondly, the effort that goes into documenting designs and decisions is abysmal. the repeated failure of teams if because of improper communication between successive teams. If every team member makes a document that answers a few basics questions whenever any decision (be it design or otherwise) is made and documents it, the successive teams will benefit greatly.

Just answer questions like:

What is being done?
Why is it being done? How is it better than the previous system(if it existed)?
Are there any compromises being made?
Who is responsible to bring in the change?
What are tasks involved?
What are the resources required?
What is the timeline for the change to be effective?
How much performance or points do we stand to gain by making this change? (if it directly influences event performance)

The effectiveness of the document depends on how detailed the answers are.

A similar thing can be done for analyzing an event performance and proposals for changes.

There is only so much of knowledge transfer you can do through sitting and talking to them or referring them to books.

If there is a good log of these documents made, any sensible new comer will gain more competence and in fast time than any elaborate training module you implement. Lessons learnt will never be lost or forgotten.

[Rex Chan]

Gaanja: sounds like our team pretty much (and a lot of Australian, Uk, US teams I would guess). It's not anything special to any country.

At Melbourne, we have always had 100% new team members. The 2012 guys are starting (trying anyway) to change things, with some people pretty solid for being on the 2013 team already.

I've been around since ~2009, so have been around the longest, as far as I know. However, the problem I find is that you can tell the new guys what to do, and why they should do it. But it usually gets forgotton, and inevitably not done, so you make the same mistakes anyway. It comes from experience - if you're there when something happens, even if you weren't the cause of it, you'll remember it better, and hopefully do better next time. I've found that talking doesn't get the message across well enough (and so docs are a good idea, but not enough).

[Gaanja]

REX: I agree that many experiences learnt wrt design changes and ideas are hard to get across a few successive teams even with docs. But when a team repeatedly fails to pass scrutiny, its just about sticking to the rule book and avoiding mistakes done earlier. I guess at least to this extent, the docs should help. There are teams which clear scrutiny in one year participate in dynamics, but the next year fail scrutiny again by making the same mistakes they rectified (by getting more ambitious about performing in dynamics and losing sight of essential things).

Also, I don know how many teams use the scrutiny checklist to do a pre-shipping and a pre-arriving-at-the-event check. This could really help.

Edit: these sheets are made available online by FSG. It should apply for any competition I guess

[Rex Chan]

It is standard practice for our team to go through the rules with someone outside the current team (usually a past team member) at least once before comp. It's usually a 3 stage process: current team makes the car ready, external scrut happens and the team notes any problems, fixes them, and gets rescrut by outside person. It's usually the Integration (tech team leader) team's job track any rules compliance issues up til comp.

I would say it's standard practice on any team serious about competing at comp to do a mock scrut before comp. Since we're pretty new at it all the time, we stay on the conservative side, and usually get through scrut with minimal issues. In 2010 and 2011, we were one of the early teams to pass scrut and all 3 tests (tech, tilt, noise). If you can leave comp early on Friday afternoon cos you're all done, you're doing pretty well.

Actually, if you're still going through scrut on Saturday, you're losing time to do Accel, Skidpad and AutoX. And the lines get really long (although I realise we have it good in AUS compared to the 100+ team comps)

[The_Man]

Gaanja asks more relevant questions and Rex is correct that these are exactly the same issues team abroad have faced. So if we can stop starting every sentence with because I am from India and have lack of resources we did this, it'll be good as this is the story of any other team.

That brings me to an other point. A lot of teams returning from the competitions come back having been awed by the Tu Grazs and the Tu Delfts. This leads to the point where teams conclude that to do well they need to the have all the things that these teams have. The talk will be about Carbon Fiber tubs, Launch Control, Rear Wheel Steering, etc. Sometimes these 'glamorous things' cause the simple things to be ignored. The stuff that did not make these teams competitive even with respect to the newer and less experienced teams.

What is important to understand is that these teams too started out at some point of time and they did not invest time, money and effort into the fancy stuff until they perfected the simple stuff and found that the only way to do things better is the advanced technologies. A good thumb rule (inspired from the 'Big Bird') if that do it only if it going to give you more points at the competition. A launch control is pointless (pun intended) when you don't pass tech and spending 3 months on suspension geometry and then manufacturing something that is 3 centimeters off is a waste of 50% of your design time.

A good solution is aim to get a 'basic' car running 4-5 months before the competition and then if there are enhancements add them on to the car and prove it is better/more reliable to make it a permanent feature. Essentially have a running and 100% rule compliant car at any given time during these 4-5 months. 'Easier said than done' - I know, but the teams who have had one shot at a car before are easily capable of doing this by keeping things simple.


Originally posted by AngryIndian:
The idea of asking someone from SAE India to conduct a seminar was stupid. I am not even goingto follow up with them. They have graduated from the same colleges when the education system was worse and worked in the same companies when corruption was more. I have realized that the only way performance of Indian tea,ms will improve is if:-

1. The population of India decreases
2. The number of engineering jobs increases
3. The education system improves drastically
4. Companies hire on the basis of talent not academic performance.
5. There is a support system from the government, universities and companies for improving innovation.

If anyone hjas solutions to these problems please suggest

Otherwise, be prepared to be shocked with the performance of Indian teams for the next 5 years. Better concentrate on improving results of UK teams which is the center of motorsports and still underperform. Results might be more immediate there.


1. The population of India decreases

The population of India is it's strength as much as it is it's weakness. The high population and democratic government is one of the reasons India is at it current stage of development. Even if this means the labor prices are low but some other more developed countries have more unemployment than India.

2. The number of engineering jobs increases

I am not even going to Google the stats about engineering jobs in India. Move around Bangalore, Mumbai, Delhi, Pune and see how many employed engineers you'll meet. A few years ago that was not the case.

3. The education system improves drastically

Well Formula Student is a top avenue to improve our education system. A lot of universities in India support Formula Student. Now it is up to the students to take this initiative further. It's a cycle, do well at a competition your education system has benefited, now transfer the knowledge you have gained.

4. Companies hire on the basis of talent not academic performance.

Companies hire on the basis of Academic because you have not given them any other basis to hire upon. A typical CV contains their degrees, marks in competitive exams and in the interview we harp on about these things. If you notice, the day a company sees a (genuine) deviation from this they are quick to grab that student.

5. There is a support system from the government, universities and companies for improving innovation.

This is feeling has to be mutual. How many of us think about our University per say? University is a place were we go to get our degrees and it ends there. The aim is get out of University using the shortest and the easiest way possible. Have you heard of anyone stay back in University to do an extra year of Formula SAE? The government gives the IITs and the NITs highly subsidized high quality education, funds a lot of research and companies are more than will to help if you approach them nicely without ulterior objectives.

My point being it is easy for us as students and young Indian to sit in an arm chair and blame it on the culture, education system and the government. Yes there is corruption, issues, unfairness and gaping holes in the system but it's upto the new generation to fix this rather than crib. If we look around things are changing here, FAST.

(@AngryIndian: When I say 'you' in this post I do not mean you personally but I am referring to the Indian Student. So please do not take this personally. It's a discussion I am trying to have)

[Pradeep]

Hi,

While I am not part of the Formula Manipal team anymore, I would like to inform you that the current team is working on a 2 year model i.e. after 2011 the next team will be participating at 2013 competition to ensure that we have enough time for testing.

Also the alumni of Formula Manipal will be conducting a "design review" for the 2013 team either on 4-5th August or 11-12th August 2012 (dates to be confirmed by tonight). I would be more than happy if any of you gentlemen would care to join us, provided you are upto making a trip to Manipal (which is in Karnataka btw , not in north-east)- its a beautiful little town and its even more beautiful during the monsoon.

We trying to arrange a webinar as a lot of our alumni are studying in US/Europe, so you can also join us there if you want. But I think coming in person would be better in terms of exchange of ideas and interaction.

Anyone who is interested can send me a email.

Cheers,

[RaceCatt69]

http://www.afro-squad.com/blog/wp-content/plugins/rss-poster/cache/8b548_a98043_in_9-india2.jpg

[The_Man]

There is whole branch of Mechanical Engineering here called design for abuse. :-)

[Pradeep]

@RaceCatt69: Thats the best shot you got bro? You should come visit, I'll show you around. You'll like it here, we have loads of people just like you (do less, yap more)... so ya if you have nothing constructive to contribute, piss off.

@The_Man: I like that fact you take that it in a sporting spirit, but its high time we give some back. Lets not sit back and let people say anything they want..

Who's the moderater around here anyway?

[The_Man]

@Pradeep: I have a couple of things in mind. I'll send you an e-mail about it.

[ftorque]

Thanks Pradeep and The_Man for the above posts.
By the way Indian Universities gearing up for the SupraSAE event at BIC, Delhi in September.
65 teams this time from possible 110 entries.

[Claude Rouelle]

My observations from the 4 Indian cars and teams I saw at FS UK..

1. Car design and execution is poor but the main issue is simply lack of preparation. Before a seminar on slip angle, roll centers, steering geometry or yaw inertia I believe Indian teams need first a simple seminar on project management, organization, realistic evaluation of the challenges they are facing, to set reachable goals. On Time, on Target.

2. No one of the 4 cars did pass the brake test. Would braking be not important? Is there a connection with the fact that India is the country which has the highest rate of death on the road? That seems to be a recurring issue with Indian teams. As if once their car has started and has moved on its own, the students have reached the goal. Lack of realistic goal definition?

3. I keep wondering why teams do put their car on the plane and decide to fly to the event while they KNOW that they did not test enough, that their car is not ready to race and often they know that their car will probably not pass the technical inspection.

4. Arriving at the competition with a poor design and a poor execution is one thing but showing up with a car which was not tested or, worse, was not finished is another. I spoke with several of the Indian FS team members and when I asked what the issues were I heard things like "the car was shipped late" or "we did not get the budget on time" or "we had issues with the custom" or "some specific parts were delivered late". What I hear is "It is not our fault". I hear victimization. I hear denial. I hear that you are not in control of your own life. There will always be glitches (we say s**t happen): on this point of view Indian teams not different than any other team. You need to take into account the unexpected by leaving enough room in the schedule for each task. And you also need a plan B and even a plan C for each task.

5. When I asked WHY they came knowing they could not properly compete the answer was "for the experience". I agree it is an experience. You effectively did learn a lot. But with a bit more organization, you could have learned much, much more. One problem I have with the "for the experience" statement is most students only do FSAE / FS one year so the experience is not really useful.... for you or for your team. Succeeding in FS / FSAE is a 3 to 5 year project.

6. "for the experience" can also be translated as a very selfish attitude. What about the others? What about the guys next year? Will they benefit from the experience of a car which did not compete? What about your friends and family, university and your country? How do you think they feel if they know you came from so far away and did not make even one meter of any of the 4 dynamic event. Sorry guys: your best is not good enough. This competition is not about just "being' there. It is about participating. You did not participate; you just came.

7. Many years ago when one of my kids was in first grade, I visited his classroom and I saw on the wall a poster explaining the difference between a error and a mistake. Errors can happen. They are unexpected. That is why you need testing: to resolve errors that did not occur in design. However mistakes occur when you know there is an error and you somewhat decide not to solve it. Outside observers will look at it as "they do not care". Mistake do occurs when the team did not use the experience of errors and/or did not solve it. Often there is a lack of the group awareness. Here is a question for you. How many errors and how many mistake did you do? Can you honestly and objectively answer this question? What can you do to improve?

Before you understand the science of tire model, kinematics, weight transfer , damping etc... and their application to car design and testing it is clear that most Indian team needs 2 things

1. Understand the challenges. I already posted my opinion that for any new team or any team which has not been able to decently compete in the past (by decently I mean for example at least successfully pass all steps of technical inspection) a visit by students and faculty adviser to 2 competitions a year in advance should be mandatory.

2. Take a course on project management. A good one, not an academic one, like I saw too many from Indian university on youtube

I think the S.M.A.R.T method is one of the methods which would be the most useful Indian teams

Your goals must be Specific, Measurable, Achievable, Relevant (or Results oriented or Realistic), Time framed.

On my way to FSG with the hope to see better Indian cars

Claude

[Gaanja]

@ Claude and Pat:

I really hope you make it to the Italian Event too.

[RollingCamel]

1. Car design and execution is poor but the main issue is simply lack of preparation. Before a seminar on slip angle, roll centers, steering geometry or yaw inertia I believe Indian teams need first a simple seminar on project management, organization, realistic evaluation of the challenges they are facing, to set reachable goals. On Time, on Target

For 1st year teams it is quite hard to set realistic goals without knowing what it takes in the 1st place, even the team vision ain't clear.


3. I keep wondering why teams do put their car on the plane and decide to fly to the event while they KNOW that they did not test enough, that their car is not ready to race and often they know that their car will probably not pass the technical inspection.
Some just for fun, school politics and corrupted souls who would just go to be said they participated in this and that, and some for the experience if it is going to be shared with the following team. We were pretty much forced to go.


4. Arriving at the competition with a poor design and a poor execution is one thing but showing up with a car which was not tested or, worse, was not finished is another. I spoke with several of the Indian FS team members and when I asked what the issues were I heard things like "the car was shipped late" or "we did not get the budget on time" or "we had issues with the custom" or "some specific parts were delivered late". What I hear is "It is not our fault". I hear victimization. I hear denial. I hear that you are not in control of your own life. There will always be glitches (we say s**t happen): on this point of view Indian teams not different than any other team. You need to take into account the unexpected by leaving enough room in the schedule for each task. And you also need a plan B and even a plan C for each task.
We did fall into the same problem, our team simply wasn't near the potential of a 1st year team. We arguments about "We Egyptians work better at the late stages and be pressured." Clearly we aren't competing with Egyptians only and this mindset creates rubbish only.
There were some really hard conditions but what made me more disappointed at the time that we didn't really do what we had to.
Understanding and believing in teamwork is something we need to train ourselves on.

[The_Man]

Congratulations to Orion Racing (KJ Somaiya), that is a fantastic showing at FS Germany.

A new benchmark has been set :-)

[Big Bird]

Great news! Well done Orion Racing (KJ Somaiya), my heartiest congrats.

Cheers,

[Saad Ahmed]

Great achievement after 6 long years of hard work.
Makes it even sweeter! http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Team 2012 has made all the Orion Alumni very proud!

[Bemo]

I also have to say big congratulations to Orion Racing! Unfortunately I didn't have the time to have a closer look at the car, but finishing all dynamic events with fair performance is a huge step in the right direction.
I was already surprised when I saw that they were one of the first teams who finished the scrutineering quiz and so they were in the first group of inspected cars Wednesday morning. A clear sign, the team is well organised and read and understood the rules.
I talked to the scrutineer who did the tech inspection of the car and he said he was really surprised in a positive way about the car. Only minor issues which could be solved quickly and by the end of the day they already had their tech sticker.
In the end it is 44. place out of 77. So we can say somewhere in the middle of the field. Quite a lot of European teams behind you http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
But after the well deserved party and curing the hangover I hope you will make sure, that this success leads to further development. Try to do the next step. The team who achieved that must try to give the experience to the next team. If you manage to do that all your effort will be worth much more as if you just show that it's possible and then leave.
Every one of you surely learned a lot during this season. Help the new guys not to start from scratch. If they finish even better than you, it doesn't mean you have to be ashamed about your result or anything. Then you can be really sure that you helped the team to develop in a long term view.

[ftorque]

A big congrats to Orion Racing.
You made us all Indians proud.
Hope you continue with the tradition.
http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Big Bird]

Invitation to Australian Event, Dec 2012

Hi all,

A few of us have been having some discussions behind these boards as to ways we can help new teams learn their way around the ropes of FSAE. It is difficult for a group of us to get to India - but how about a tour/study group coming to us here in Oz?

If you can draw a travelling group together, we at SAE Australasia could offer something like the following:

* Invitation to the event (4 days) - see a serious competition in action, maybe even help out as flag marshals, observe scrutineering, meet competitors, be tutored in mechanical design by some reputable FSAE alumni

* Attend the additional careers & recruitment day and social drive day we are planning for the Monday - a new initiative we are proposing here in Oz - with technical presentations, display cars, feedback sessions from design judges, etc etc. You might even be able to drive one of the Australian FSAE cars, but that depends on a uni making their car available. No promises, but will see what we can do.

* Attend a 2-3 day FSAE design school, where I can teach you the basics of FSAE design, with help from people like Scott Wordley, and maybe some others.
(I anticipate running the design school on the Wed/Thurs and maybe Fri after the event. For those attending Claude's Optimum G course, but who want to attend the design school too, we will repeat the design school on Saturday and Sunday 15th and 16th of December)

This offer is for anyone interested in learning design principles, with particular emphasis for the design school on assisting new or inexperienced teams.

Anyone interested? Please let me know at geoff_at_sae-a_dot_com_dot_au

Once we have an idea of how many are coming and what topics we need to cover, we can sort out duration of course and costs.

Cheers all,

Geoff

[The_Man]

FYI

I have attended a Seminar a couple of years ago, and I personally really recommend it. It is a must to seminar for anyone planning to work in the automotive engineering industry, specially if you are involved in a Formula SAE project.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ____

3 day Claude Rouelle seminar on 'FS/FSAE Project Management and Basic Vehicle Dynamics'

Dates - 10-12 Sept, just after the Supra SAE competition

Venue - New Delhi (Near the Buddh International Circuit)

Objectives - The 3 main objectives will be to share with students the indispensable fundamentals on

- First day. Project management, team building, goal definition and organization (if you fail to plan you plan to fail) needed to be successful in the FS / FSAE competitions.

- Second day. Basic of vehicle dynamics (understanding the tire, kinematics, weight transfers, calculation and choice of springs, antiroll bars and dampers)

- Third day. How to design, test and develop a Formula student car with a reasonable budget. Testing methodology. Examples and discussions of do and don’t.

Price

Students(Individual) - $250 (USD) / Student

Students(Group > 3) - $200 (USD) / Student

Professional(Individual) - $950 (USD) / Person

Professional(Group > 3) - $800 (USD) / Person

(Otherwise, the normal 3 day seminar is 700 US$ for students and 1850 US$ for professionals.)

A binder of 450 pages will be provided but each participant will be responsible for his own lunch.

Prices will go up by 25% after 30th August (late registration)

Registrations and Queries - rachel.trapp@optimumg.com

[Claude Rouelle]

Great news! The OptimumG seminar in India at Buddh circuit is ON!

We have received a lot of interest from many students as well as from several professionals from the Indian automotive industry (Tata and ARAI for example) and we are now opening the seminar registrations.

The seminar will occur near the Buddh circuit (address to be confirmed soon) on September 10th, 11th and 12th.

Each participant will receive a 450 pages binder with information on project management and applied vehicle dynamics principles to car design and testing.

For more info OptimumG India Seminar 2012 (http://www.optimumg.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/OptimumGIndiaSeminar_2012.pdf)

If you are a professional, the price is 950 US $ per person (800 $ per person for a group of 3 or more). To register go to the OptimumG website http://www.optimumg.com/traini...e-dynamics-seminars/ (http://www.optimumg.com/training/vehicle-dynamics-seminars/)

If you are a student, the price is 250 $ per student (200 $ per student for a group of 3 or more).
To register and get the student price please send your name, email address, contact details and a copy of your student ID to Rachel Trapp rachel.trap@optimumg.com who will send you a discount code.

Price will go up 25 % after September 5th!

See you at the Budd circuit very soon!

[M. Nader]

I have just attended a similar Seminar to this by Claude in the UK (it didn't include the project management aspects).

all i have to say is that it is EXCELLENT. really informative and opened my eyes to things i had never thought were there despite reading about them more than once! and gained a ton of new information.

Claude is an excellent teacher and presenter and i guarantee that you won't be bored a second. Given that this seminar also has project management aspects it should be even more entertaining and informative than the one i attended.

[RollingCamel]

Originally posted by M. Nader:
I have just attended a similar Seminar to this by Claude in the UK (it didn't include the project management aspects).

all i have to say is that it is EXCELLENT. really informative and opened my eyes to things i had never thought were there despite reading about them more than once! and gained a ton of new information.

Claude is an excellent teacher and presenter and i guarantee that you won't be bored a second. Given that this seminar also has project management aspects it should be even more entertaining and informative than the one i attended.

Glad you took it. It was great experience.

[M. Nader]

Originally posted by RollingCamel:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M. Nader:
I have just attended a similar Seminar to this by Claude in the UK (it didn't include the project management aspects).

all i have to say is that it is EXCELLENT. really informative and opened my eyes to things i had never thought were there despite reading about them more than once! and gained a ton of new information.

Claude is an excellent teacher and presenter and i guarantee that you won't be bored a second. Given that this seminar also has project management aspects it should be even more entertaining and informative than the one i attended.

Glad you took it. It was great experience. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Did you do the same back in 2010?

[RollingCamel]

Originally posted by M. Nader:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RollingCamel:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M. Nader:
I have just attended a similar Seminar to this by Claude in the UK (it didn't include the project management aspects).

all i have to say is that it is EXCELLENT. really informative and opened my eyes to things i had never thought were there despite reading about them more than once! and gained a ton of new information.

Claude is an excellent teacher and presenter and i guarantee that you won't be bored a second. Given that this seminar also has project management aspects it should be even more entertaining and informative than the one i attended.

Glad you took it. It was great experience. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Did you do the same back in 2010? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep.

[Claude Rouelle]

I am not a fan of Facebook post related to FSAE or Formula Student simply because I found the format of discussion lacking substance and the style way too much gossip oriented.

FSAE.com forum is THE #1 resource to use if you want to find information and ask question about ANY FSAE or FS event, team organization, budget, car design, testing etc..

However, as far as learning opportunities for Indian students, what I see on the last post of https://www.facebook.com/groups/286092748756/ is particularly troubling.

My opinions have not changed:
1. Get away from any organizations which doesn't not have students learning as their number one goal and priority, even more if these organizations have shown incompetence, bureaucracy, indecision and, worse, corruption, in the past. The best way to predict the future is to look at the past.
2. If the actual organizers do not show any leadership and endlessly delay rules, calendar etc... publication take your live in your own hands.
3. If you students cannot organize your own competition (as it has been done in several countries) and you still want to "learn by doing" get out of your country and participate to outside India competitions. However if you so do so with a car which has a decent chance a) to pass tech b) finish all 4 dynamic event (At last FS Italy, not one Indian team did either a or b). Follow the example of Orion racing.

If you want to climb out of a hole, the very first thing you must do is stop digging…

One more request to Indian students.... In your posts, please do not mix SAE, FSAE or any Formula Students with Supra or SAE India, or FSAE India. Not the same people, not the same proven records.

[Ravi Kiran Bachu]

Hey guys,
We are having a lot of trouble finding an impact testing facility to do the Impact Attenuator (IA) test according to FSAE rule T3.22. We did a quasi-static test for participation in FSUK in July '12 and we can't repeat it as quasi-static testing is not allowed for FS Germany.
It would be really helpful if someone could point out an impact testing facility in India (preferably in or near Chennai) http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Ravi Kiran Bachu]

I have tried at some private labs and National Test House, but they have only Izod and Charpy tests following ASTM and Indian Standards and having only an impact energy of around 500 Joules max. - which is far less than what we require (7350 Joules).

[JulianH]

I'd suggest to use the Standard Impact Attenuator with the required AI-Plate / Front-Bulkhead if it's difficult to find a testing facility:

https://www.formulastudent.de/...ct_Attenuator_01.pdf (https://www.formulastudent.de/uploads/media/FSG12_Advice_for_Standard_Impact_Attenuator_01.pdf )

It's by far the cheapest option and saves a lot of time.

[ftorque]

I think maybe ARAI, Pune, Maharashtra has a impact test facility available. Not sure though... And getting a standard impact attenuator may take some time. Ravi, which event are you guys going for?

[JulianH]

They are going to Germany, that's why they need a dynamic test.

I think getting a Standard Impact Attenuator should be that big of a problem, you have over 6 month to get one...

Even if the companies that are selling Impaxx foam or even the completely finished standard impact attenuator don't want to ship to India, there are I'd say about 500 teams in Europe or the US that are willing to get the stuff for you and then ship it privately to India.

You just have to pay them their expences.

That should work, I guess...

Or ask Orion Racing, they participated at FSG 2012 so they did a dynamic test, they should know an answer!

[ftorque]

I am pretty sure ARAI does the testing. Orion is participating this year also in FSG 2013. If IITM Team Raftar has already spend time making a impact attenuator then it is better they get it tested and validated. It will increase their points in the design event and their work wont go wasted by getting a standard IA.

[eracer]

hello,
Guys I would like to know where did you buy your batteries from?(dealer)

Ojas Choudhari
Team Unwired
NIT Calicut

[PatClarke]

Bump

[JulianH]

I'd suggest RC dealers (especially aircrafts). They have really nice LiPo and LiFePo accumulators and can give you a good FSAE discount normally.

[Amit Guptà]

As ftorque said, ARAI does have drop test facilities and charge Rs. 25,000/- for the same. contact the SHL department for details.

[ftorque]

It's been a long time.
But with the SUPRA SAEINDIA event getting a makeover(Yes it's 610cc max. engine capacity and some more changes), and a lot's of teams in India searching and desperate to get their hands on a 600, it made me write the following:
With the Michigan and Lincoln FSAE event coming and many Indian teams participating in them(and also participation in other FS/FSAE events has increased), i visited some teams and found the same mistakes repeated again and again.
I wont name them but they seem to have the same idea of just making a car that runs.

When this thread was started with an apparently noble cause of spreading the knowledge within Indian teams about everything from engine problems, technical inspection points and where you get what in India;
I don't know where everything went off-track!

1. First of all, not even a single post here actually tells you where to find a dealer who sells you original 1020,4130 and all the other material's.
I still know teams buying steel with certificates from dealers saying its 1020 or 4130, when it isn't!
2. Second of all, where did these "I will pass on my knowledge and expertise to anybody in need"(Indian Guys) crusader's go! I tried contacting a lot personally, but guess what????
3. Even today the First timer's have difficulty to get their hands on SFI spec 45.1 or FIA 8857-2001, 12 mm thick roll bar padding.
Teams who have participated before buy these stuff overseas(at the venue) and use it for the next season.
4. Some teams are shelling out Rs.40000 or $750 for a Torsen differential available with some other team.
5. A 600cc engine bought in India itself will set back a team a cool $6500-$7000(Rs.3,00,000-Rs5,00,000).
And boy have some team actually payed that much.

But after so many years of participation in FSAE/FS why are we Indian teams still lacking:
"It may be, we are, just too excited by the fact that we are doing something outside the classroom".

An advice to all Indian teams:
Go to e-Bay
Find a genuine dealer for a 600cc engine.
Gather the funds, show it to your college authorities, buy it and get it shipped.
Get a letter from your college heads saying this will be used only for educational purposes(stamped,signed on a letter-head).
And voila you have a 600 in-front of you in a month for about Rs80,000-Rs1,25,000(depending on various factors) and a penalty for importing a used engine to India of Rs5000-Rs9000.

Also i have a query.
Most first timer teams don't bother to fiddle much with the intake, throttle., etc and just change the throttle position to before the restrictor.
I had been recently contacted by teams, who have shipped some 2009,2011 Yamaha R6 engines to India for use in FSAE events.
My doubt is from 2006 onwards Yamaha had Yamaha Chip Controlled Throttle(YCCT) technology installed in their R6 bike.
This is an electronic-control throttle system that actively control the volume of intake air being drawn into the engine in order to control the fuel-air mixture.
But according to FSAE rulebook Page No. 78 Rule No. IC 1.5.2 use of such a system is prohibited.
So is such an engine allowed? Or how do we change the the system and fit a new one. It may be a simple procedure but I will be glad if someone helps me out. Also if it's explained on some other thread, please post a link.

And one more question to all the FSAE forum users:
With the SUPRASAE India event changing it rules and name (now it's Student Formula 2014) are these guys allowed to post on this forum?????
I hope people don't post "Oh!it's a disaster waiting to happen/It's great news" and all their opinion.
Just a simple Yes or No will suffice.

And some more news for Indian teams:
If you want to stay away from the 600 importing, running, tuning, restrictor issue and are looking for solutions back home itself, other than the Royal Enfield 500
Good News!!
The KTM Duke 390 is supposed to be launched in India in June for 2 - 3lakhs approx.
It has a 375cc engine which makes 45PS/44.4hp @ 9500rpm and 35Nm @ 7250rpm.
The engine weighs only 36kgs and it's a single cylinder.
Better than the Kawasaki Ninja 300 available right now in market.
Also the ecu tuners in India will have the rev-limiter removed for you in no time.
Also the Bajaj Pulsar 400 is coming by year end or early next year.

Regarding the material and padding and other safety components issue.
If you know some genuine dealer or want some info on one send me a personal message.
I would have stated their names here, but they are big teams in the motorsports industry and i have happened to work with some.

Hope this season we have some go finishes.

[whiltebeitel]

You mean no one mentioned Aircraft Spruce (http://www.aircraftspruce.com/menus/me/steel.html) for 4130 tubing? Never been able to get roll bar padding from somewhere like Speedway Motors (http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Roll-Bar-Padding-for-1-1-4-to-1-5-8-Inch-Tubing,8856.html)?

As far as $750 for a Torsen differential, many teams pay more than twice that for many of the differentials you see in use at FSAE events.

I'm glad the SUPRA competiton is moving to become closer to the FS/FSAE rules set. It'll make it a lot easier to use this forum to share ideas and so forth.

[Racer-X]

Maybe I'm missing something here but everything you are looking for is available in various places on the internet. You'd just have to pay the shipping to send it all the way from say Germany to India. I have no idea how much that would cost. It might be an issue on the engine, but everything else can't be that bad.

Oh and about being on the Forums, if it is an official SAE FSAE or FS event then yes. Most members don't have a problem with the idea of Indian teams being on here as it is, they just don't like the lame questions that often come from Indian teams.

[ftorque]

Thanks Guys.
But importing stuff into India is a huge issue.
I just helped a team import a CBR 600 engine to India. The engine arrived in 2 and half weeks time but i took us 3 weeks for it to clear customs. The team lost 3 precious weeks. They are participating in Lincoln 2013.
Another case would be when another team imported a Torsen Differential. It was fined a penalty of Rs.9000, even after showing all documents.
So teams refrain from importing stuff of the World Wide Web. It's either the college telling them it ain't safe, or it been not guaranteed that it will be the same spec as required by the team or the time and needless trip to the customs officer to get things cleared.
The only resource these team have is to contact local established motorsports team, to get these stuff from them.

[ftorque]

And the recent hike in the Import Duty ain't helping things either.
Shipping things are fine. The only problem is, teams importing it from a wrong source. So, we had issues with damaged engine being shipped.
But thanks whiltebeitel and Racer-X.
It's big change definitely for SUPRA. As the only thing different from international FSAE/FS rules would be, that i heard of, is that slick tyres are banned. Maybe it's the huge amount of teams been knocked out in the brake test in last years event prompting the authorities to do so. And before you ask, slicks are not allowed to be sold in India. Only 2 companies here make slicks, and they do sell them to motorsports team here(for track use only and their own Formula series racing league), but that's without any warmers. And again warmers are not sold in India. So cars with slick tyres without warmers, doing brake test on a Formula 1 circuit? And the dimension of the slicks sold here are a bit bigger than required for a FSAE vehicle.
If only teams here did some more market survey, they will find the sources, as i did.

[Claude Rouelle]

Warmers (I guess you mean tire heat blankets) are not allowed in any Formula Student competition anyway.

So wait a minute.... you think that having slick tires decreases your chance to pass the brake test?

After having seen so many Indian teams poorly understanding, finding the adequate information, calculating, choosing parts, designing, machining, assembling, tuning the brakes system and even worse simply not understanding how to properly bleed the brakes, I can tell you that the biggest issue for them to pass the brake test is not tire grip or tire temperature related or even less "Formula One circuit" asphalt related.

Either India adopt the international rules in its entirety or they don't. If they don't, it is not an international competition. Their (your?) choice.

[Kevin Hayward]

ftorque,

5 weeks between an order and received goods is not an uncommon thing for those of us far from the US.

At UWA we used to plan for up to 2 months between order and delivery for items coming from the US. Didn't stop the team winning national and international comps.

The trick is to avoid thinking sequentially. As soon as you start to say we cant do anything until X arrives you have cost yourselves far too much time. While you are waiting for the CBR you can be designing and making all the engine systems. Fuel tanks, overflows, radiator, intake and exhaust (just leave allowances for the final mounts), muffler, throttle bodies, wiring harness and so on.

Kev

[ftorque]

Thanks Claude for your concern and Kevin for your advice.
About the warmers(tire heat blankets), i commented that because i have personally seen teams in UK,USA and Italian events using those in their pits.
I am not accusing anybody, but if its not allowed then its my fault that i didn't read the rulebook properly.
I don't know how i skipped that rule, Maybe reading it again won't harm me....
I have also posted the size of slicks used by Indian teams been bigger.
I will get you the size parameters(tire profile) as soon as i pay a team a visit next week.
Yes, i have seen the teams having a lot of "play" in their uprights(wrong assembly) or no knowledge of bleeding the brakes and so on...
But i have also noticed cars having puny little tyres(having profile of Maruti 800) passing the brake test at one go.
Also never got a chance to be with the car in the brake test arena.
So can somebody tell me what is the min. required speed in a brake test?
Also another query would be the position of the front and rear caliper?
I have finished designing the uprights, hubs., etc for a particular caliper position, but would like to know if it's always better to keep the front caliper mounting behind the upright and the rear caliper ahead of it(I hope you understand my doubt).
I would readily post images or my full report about the brake design and analysis, if you ask for it.
Regarding the importing stuff, i would like to tell you the following:
This is how we start an FSAE/FS team:
1. Make a team, big one normally to make the payment.
2. Fight over team captaincy and other stuff.
3. Get letters and approval from college to go out and get sponsorship.
5. It takes about two months for all sponsorship to finally arrive.
6. After all this does the design process start, because till then the team members have no guarantee if the are going to manufacture a car and go to the event.(Forget the Rs.1,00,000 registration fee. If you know the number of teams registering and the number of teams actually making it to the competition, you know what i mean to say)
7. Then most new teams search Indian markets for used 600cc bikes. After failure do they think of importing it via the WWW.
8. Then comes the waiting period in college. Waiting for the college authorities to come out of shock, when you tell them you want to import these components for so much.
9. Then does the engine come. All taking 3 months.
10. But the good thing is team members work pace increases as soon as college sanction the engine import.
11. Almost all team finish the design stuff before the engine arrive.
12. But it's the 600cc arrival that cause most of the issue for first timers. It a completely new thing for all of them since, the largest capacity sports bike assembled and sold in India is the Ninja 300. A very simple Royal 500. The Hyosung 650R is imported and sold here.
So, plumbing, wiring and all is completely different for them. You may say, not many have shown Engine issues at the events. I would refrain from commenting on that.
13. There goes most of the time.
14. Then there is also the fancy suggestion of materials and parts. Actually with a few (material)companies coming to India in the last two years, its easier to make carbon-fiber parts than get 4130 here.
You may have seen teams having their sponsorship logos on their cars.
15. The above stated points maybe the same story everywhere, and everyone saying its the lack of team and time management.
16. But i say its more than that. Something you can experience only after having a direct contact with the team for at least a month.
I say that because till date i have worked with 6 different teams here. After questioning their and my management skills and everything, i know its either a deep filled passion and a understanding college that makes teams like Orion and IIT's.
Also just got a quote from a leading shipment company for Air fare of a vehicle for FSAE Lincoln next month.
It's a whooping $11800-$12500. And that's a one-way trip.
So do they have a choice left of rectifying their errors and going again the next time?????
Very few have such a privilege.
I would say give us 3 more years. With more 600's been imported here(Student Formula), the importing issues smoothing out, better knowledge spread among teams, you will definitely see much better cars.

[TMichaels]

About the warmers(tire heat blankets), i commented that because i have personally seen teams in UK,USA and Italian events using those in their pits.

You are mixing up active tire warmers and passive tire "protection" blankets.
Many teams use these to protect their tires from getting dirty on the way to the dynamic events or to keep the tires warm while moving from the test area to a dynamic event.
They are not actively heating the tires.

From all what I have seen so far, there is no real problem with parts availability. You just have to use what you got in a decent way.
As said many times:
There are no excuses for showing up with a rusty car with poorly designed and manufactured parts. Even, if you do not have access to a current 600cc engine, you are still able to build a decent car with respect to the engineering solutions chosen and with respect to manufacturing quality. But so far, I have not seen such a car made by an Indian team. Parts availability will not solve this issue for you.

[ftorque]

Thanks Tobias.
I know the teams use passive tire "protection" blankets. I did talk with them during the event and got to know why they where using them, having it on the back of my mind that professional racing tire warmers are not allowed.
I would like to clarify that i am not whining here about the lack of parts or facilities here for us.
In fact i know some teams making a car and going to the event when they had 0% chances of doing so. The only thing was funds kicked-in at the last moment and they could not test the vehicle but had to go for the competition as obligations to the sponsors.
The had a very bad show at the event, but guess what sponsor's return back for a next year vehicle. Hope they do good this time.
I agree with all you said. Give us some more time. World Super Bike is having a round this year in India. MotoGP follows next year. Many companies have started their own car class racing series. All this will further compel the guys to take up these events/activities more seriously. Then it will be different ball game all-together.

[Claude Rouelle]

ftorque,

Yes India is get accustomed to racing. Good for you; it won't take many years for your generation, your public, your industry, your sponsors, and, to a certain extend your university teachers, to catch that wave.

But how long will it take for Indians to get rid of what slows down every evolution process; at all levels: bureaucracy and corruption?

[Jay Lawrence]

ftorque,

Couple of things:
Why do you insist on running 600cc 4's? You say they are so hard to get and so expensive for you, & your teams generally seem to have problems making them run (reliably if at all). Why not look elsewhere? Aim for something that can reliably do the average endurance speed with minimal work/cost. Perhaps a Briggs & Stratton or similar industrial engine? Surely you have these in India? You are not at the level to be worrying about 'sports bikes' because you are yet to make a car capable of using the engines found there.

There should be no 'fighting' over team captaincy etc. If there's fighting over who is suitable for what role, none of you are suitable.

Why are you stressing about 3 month waiting periods? Aim for a 2 year car, accumulate parts in that time that can be used in future years (e.g. the engine).

You don't need 4130 or carbon fibre to make a reliable car.

Why would you fly your car anywhere? Ship it! You will lose time, but as you are building a 2 year car this should not affect you too much. UoW has competed in 4 US comps, all with success, all with cars shipped there. You can spend the shipping time nailing your static events and doing driver training (in go-karts, old cars, whatever).

[ftorque]

Thanks Claude and Jay.
Claude, how long will it take?
Oh no. It's not going to end. Because India has too much money. And where there is money, there is bureaucracy and corruption.
You either are part of it or be a mere self proclaimed spectator. Because there is no such thing as too much money.
And Jay:
Regarding why always use a 600? I met a Faculty Adviser once for a FSAE Germany team and suggested him using the Royal 500.
He said if his team is spending so much, then why not buy a 600 and compete for wining at least a trophy. And their story ended as every other Indian Team. It's just not Faculty Adviser, even Teams are adamant on using 600. They somehow feel inferior when using any smaller CC Indian Engine. Not sure about the vast availability of Briggs & Stratton engine, i did find 2 spare ones last year, but there are a lot of dirt bike engines.
But their reliability is an issue, since all have been used for dirt bike competition, which is a major sport here.
With fighting, i meant show-offs which every team have.
About a 2 year car. It's difficult for team members to stick together for 1 year here and make a car. You start with 25 and end up with 7. But this trend has caught up with 2 teams here, who are participating in FSAE Italy and FS UK this year. Let's see how they fare.
"You don't need 4130 or carbon fibre to make a reliable car". I know that. Try telling that to team members who go through the event guides, team details to finalize materials for components.
Flying the car over is the only option left, when you have a last minute vehicle. If a first timer team ship's their car, i would personally fly over to that event to see the vehicle.
Static events are a consideration for only established teams, who know their importance in point scoring.
Driver training. Your kidding. Every FSAE driver from India is a class apart. Do they need training??? I went for a few go-kart rounds with some of them and boy do funny things happen.

[ftorque]

And Claude my generation is almost over.
After 2 Indian events, 3 international events, i think this year may just be my last chance for my out of classroom experience. I hope i make it after completing my other university obligation.
But i would thank all responsible for starting FSAE/FS. Your hard work completed the "Engineer" in me.
Now i know how to work with a rupee and not whine about not having 10.
I don't even understand why start a thread "Motorsport or Design". I am glad you all just started these events.

[Moreboost]

FYI - Any indian teams wanting to purchase a WR450 we have contacts we can give and help organise a purchase. We have a brand new 2007 (pre EFI) sitting at a team sponsors factory.

For any indian teams reading, this is probably the most suitable engine for you - you dont need much spares because they are so bloody hard to blow up.

[Big Bird]

Hi ftorque,

Thank you for your comprehensive insight into FSAE in India - it makes for very enlightening reading. I have no doubt that the issues you are experiencing will one day be behind you.

Some quick comments (if I can be quick...)

"1. Make a team, big one normally to make the payment.
2. Fight over team captaincy and other stuff.
3. Get letters and approval from college to go out and get sponsorship.
5. It takes about two months for all sponsorship to finally arrive.
6. After all this does the design process start, because till then the team members have no guarantee if the are going to manufacture a car and go to the event"

Firstly, people who fight over leadership roles are not leaders. The leaders are actually the ones who ignore such grandstanding and just DO.

Secondly (fourthly??) you do not have a step 4. This is always going to make the transition from step 3 through to step 5 a difficult one http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I think it was Kev above who commented on sequential design. If your team doesn't want to do any work on design until the sponsorship money arrives - get a new team. This competition is about learning. If the passion to learn is contingent on sponsorship money being secured, then you have bigger problems with your people than we might have understood.

Regarding your comments about 600cc supersport engines - you are digging your own grave here. Firstly, a question:- which engine is quicker, a Royal Enfield putting out 25hp, or a CBR600RR that doesn't run? Another question for you:- which is the better result - 500 points using a 25hp Royal Enfield, or 200 points using a blown CBR sitting in the garage? Look at your results, look at those of your peers, and keep asking yourself these questions until you can be honest with yourself with the answers. Until you can, there will always be struggle.

I am not advocating mediocrity. I am saying that a whole new world of learning opens up once you have a car running reliably. Take some short-cuts, get the car running on an Enfield with the standard carb or fuel injection system, learn about how a car handles, how braking systems work and how they need to be set up, how important ergonomics are, how to set up corner weights, etc etc etc. The obsession with having the engine that everyone else has is actually holding you back.

Trail bike engines are fast enough. And they are reliable, if you don't mess around with them too much. Don't tune yourself to a standstill.

Finally, somewhere in there there is a comment about basing your material choices on what you see on other cars. That is not engineering, I'm afraid. That is fashion. Wrong magazine...

Your material choice should be based on engineering properties, and tempered by budget and manufacturing capabilities. In particular, don't assume that the carbon you make will approach the carbon material properties you read in a book, unless you have composites manufacturing expertise at your uni. By all means, practice and learn - but until you get it right it might be wiser to leave the expensive materials off the car.

I fully believe your country's teams have every chance to achieve success in FSAE. I think though that - paradoxically - your time at the top is being ever delayed by trying to get there too quickly. Slow down, take the time to learn the basics, and at a leisurely comfortable pace you will find yourself getting to the top much quicker than you would expect.

Cheers mate, and good luck

[ftorque]

Hey Geoff. Been a long time since i read a comment from you.
The debate between a 500 & 600 will always continue in India.
It won't end. I gurantee that.
For some it's just the sight of a single seater car with a working or dead 4-cyl, 600cc engine that attracts the crowd(girls) at college festivals/events.
And boy,should you hear from the guys standing next to the vehicle explaining you all details.
And if you want to be the villian in their fantasy land, do ask them "How was your performance at the event?"

But the FSAE "Teams from India" movie will still continue....
There will be a Twist in the Tale come this July, when KTM launch their Duke 390.
It's a 1-cylinder, making 44hp@9500rpm and 35Nm@7250rpm. The engine has a dry weight of only 36kgs.
Then some more Twist in November this year, when Bajaj add another spark plug to the KTM engine and launch the Pulsar 375.
Then the American's pore in some muscle with Harley Davidson launching a 500cc bike just for the Indian Market at the 2014 Auto Expo.
Supposed to be priced at about Rs.4lakhs/$7200.
Then come the action from the Japanese. This may change the movie ending to happily ever after...
The Honda CB400. Supposed to put out 50 horses.

Before people start commenting about the price being so high and you will get it for much cheaper on the web.
I would point out teams here who have and are spending $5000-$6000 on used 600cc bikes available in India.
I know, my friend sold 3(1 front accident damaged ) to teams here.

Note: Any Indian Team reading this and thinking of playing the waiting game.
You may try the Kawasaki Ninja 300. It's a 296cc,DOHC,Parallel Twin Engine making 38.4hp@11000rpm and 27Nm@10000rpm.
Engine weighs around 43kgs. Local tuners will squeeze out more for you, after removing the rev-limiter.
Price:Rs:3.8lakhs/$6800(new).

[Racer-X]

This a bit random but I have to ask

Why are teams buying a whole bike just for the motor? And if you are you have a whole lot of parts there you can sell and get most your money back. Really 6 grand for a complete sport bike isn't bad.

Also like everyone else has said your leaders should not be fighting for those positions.

[ftorque]

Yup Racer-X.
That's what teams do. Buy a whole bike for Rs.350000/$6300.
Then sell the outer body for Rs1-1.5lakhs/$1800-2000. It's very easily sold.
The dash, tyres, suspension.,etc take time to sell. But teams do get Rs.1lakh/$1800 around for that later.
But this was all for models of 2004-05. Now the availability of these bikes in India is decreasing, due to students buying them for some FSAE events. Now bikes of 2006 year and later are available, which cost around Rs.4.5-5lakhs/$8000-9000.

And let's just forget about the leader thing. I personally played the quiet game. Concentrated on making the car and guess what these fighters are no where to be seen about 2 months before the event. Then the college authorities realize about this missing person, change the position holders again and say "Strict action will be taken against them". But these guys do return, when they see the car on wheels. But by then you have a strong-united team left. United by the sweat, smell, pocket money spend, sleepless nights and broken relationships. They ain't listening to no body...

[Z]

Geoff (Big Bird) says,
"... 600cc supersport engines - you are digging your own grave here.
... a whole new world of learning opens up once you have a car running reliably. Take some short-cuts, get the car running ...
... learn about how a car handles, how braking systems work, ... how important ergonomics are, how to set up corner weights, ...
... The obsession with having the engine that everyone else has is actually holding you back.

ftorque says,
"... it's just the sight of a ... 4-cyl, 600cc engine that attracts the crowd(girls) ...
... Duke 390 ... making 44hp@9500rpm ...
... some muscle with Harley Davidson launching a 500cc ...
... Honda CB400... 50 horses...
... Kawasaki Ninja 300. It's a 296cc ... making 38.4hp@11000rpm ...
... Local tuners will squeeze out more for you, after removing the rev-limiter ..." (<-- !!!!!!!!)

Z says,
"Hell will freeze over before any Indian team does well at an international competition."
~~~~~o0o~~~~~

Anyway, there is a lesson here for all the non-Indian teams that want to be successful in FSAE:
DO NOT think like an Indian.

Z

[Claude Rouelle]

One team, K.J. Somaiya College of Engineering "Orion Racing" did effectively pass technical inspection and completed all the 4 dynamic events of 2012 Formula Student Germany. They were the slowest car which finished endurance but we have to say they really want to finish (after, if I am right, 6 previous attempts) so they were extra careful. They were the first Indian team which finished FSG.

They did overcome a lot of adversity, starting with of a lot of bureaucracy, pessimism and a lack of work ethics of their own country

Despite, our (valid) criticisms, our (rare) encouragements, and our irritation to their (too) basic questions and sometimes the condescending attitude of their "requests" there is hope.

Still a long way to go. That result needs to be confirmed in 2013. Feel the pressure Orion? http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

However, don't hold your breath to see an India top 10 team soon in any international competitions. Time units for concretization of dreams in India is more generations than years.

Main reason; they do not even realize the amount of efforts they need to provide to be successful.

[ftorque]

Thanks Claude for your comments especially that post.

And Z
Your are a real good editor. Cutting out things and making a long story short, with a totally different ending.(<----!!!!!)

Whatever i wrote about, were the engine option available for us in near future.
Which i hope will end the constant debate of us not having enough options here to work with.

And with "Hell Freezing". Are you a prophet? Cause that day is coming(in a few years).
Claude has put up a post about a team named Orion doing FSAE for 7 years. Dig deeper through the history of it and you will find the determination very few non-Indian teams have.

About the lesson you want to give out.
I say it's 50:50.
Tell me a non-Indian team out there from countries like Egypt, Pakistan.,(not US, UK, German....) etc who have participated in such events but dared to come back again and again.
Don't whine about their lack of facilities on this thread. See the number of Indian teams participating this year in all the international events. And you will know they are participating because they want to excel. Struggling each year to raise the money and make a car, not to show the world or people on this forum that they can do it. But to themselves.
Also don't comment on them saying its a waste of money every year, bringing a car, with same or new errors/mistakes.
It's the question for the respective university and sponsor's to answer? None of your worries.
I am going this weekend to see teams participating this year. I will write about it later.

[ftorque]

Good News for all Indian Teams.
The KTM Duke 390 was launched today.
I have commented on its stats earlier on this thread.
Price? Astonishing.
Just Rs.2 lakhs on-road Mumbai. A good 600 imported to India will cost around the same. Here you will get a full bike.
So i think it should be bye bye 600 for at least 1st timers. Established teams will go back to the drawing board.
And congratulations University of Pune(1st Timers). Cleared technical inspection but couldn't clear brake test i heard.
They made their car in last 2 months. Had zero chances of making to the event. But they did and where the only Indian team to be there of the possible 3. The other 2 i heard pulled out because of last minute engine issues.
And for people who want to know the slick tire rule was reconsidered and the rules for Student Formula 2014 is exactly the same as FSAE.
So the KTM is just in time before the virtual rounds. Now it should be game on.

[Claude Rouelle]

Bad news for all Indian teams.

One car from India came to FSAE Lincoln, NE.

- Heaviest car in the paddock
- Did not participate because did not pass tech inspection

What is the point to come from so far away (just imagine the transportation cost) and not being able to compete? How can a team be so unaware of the expected level of preparation.

I think it should be mandatory that any new team send one year in advance a few or their students and a faculty advisory to they can see for themselves what is expected from them.

That is if they are willing to learn. When a team leaves the paddock early afternoon and do not use the opportunity to observe other competitive cars and teams, you have to wonder...

[Claude Rouelle]

ftorque,

How can you be happy about a team who was not able to pass tech (for me brake IS part of tech)?

You wrote "They made the car in the last 2 months" .... Is is realistic to come from the other side of the planet and only dedicate 2 months to build a FSAE car? 2 months is already not enough to TEST a car.

Who is a winner here? Is there one? Please tell me.

[ftorque]

Thanks Claude. Your suggestion and comments are always valuable.
Now as i said earlier in the thread about sponsors, this team had the same issue. They urged them to allow to go for another event next year but sponsor kept saying they will pull out if they don't go and won't sponsor again next year. Now these guys had next to no knowledge of making a vehicle.
Every time they contacted me, i insisted on getting the right rating stuff and nuts and bolts and threading right and all that template stuff right. They seem to have done good in that.
I know and my previous experience says many Indian teams(1st timers) never made it pass these technical inspection.
I also know brake test is the one that we fail a lot.
But Claude are we missing something here. Yes we are.
See i will personally talk with these guys as soon as they reach. I will let you know if they plan to participate again. From the mails that i have received they are very much going to. But maybe for a different event. You got it right huge transportation cost for going to the other side of planet. Maybe they will drop-in next time for somewhere between.
But look at the better side. They have stuff that will clear their first part. Now fix the brakes, make a proper intake and other parts, reduce weight by using Aluminum that is available here..!
These guys will rope in the sponsors again next year. Its not our part to discuss why or what kind of company will sponsor some guys who failed to complete an event again. At least my part would be to get them to complete the event.
And regarding the weight. See i was not present for the event. How many of the teams showed up with a Steel Spaceframe. I think theirs was made of normal mild steel of i guess 3074 or 1018 grade. Then add a body of fiberglass that will easily weigh 25 kgs to make it a good presentable car. And voila! You have a car that weighs around 340-370 kgs.
About them leaving the paddock early. Boy then do they have some issues to be sorted. I will keep you posted and by the views that this thread gets other also.
And yes your recommendations of taking 2 years to build a proper car is been taken by a lot of teams here seriously.
There is always a eventual win someday for the people who try, fail and try again.

All points posted here are my personal views and don't reflect that of the team in any way.
Another sad day in motorsports. Reminds us that motorsports is still dangerous.
RIP Allan Simonsen. Le Mans 24 hr race.

[Markus]

ftorque,

A couple of questions and notes about weight from your last post:

-To reach a certain stiffness (stiffness is a very common design target), how much lighter will the part be if made from aluminium instead of steel? Or magnesium? Or titanium? Or quasi-isotropic CF laminate?

-How much heavier is mild steel compared to alloyed steel in regards of stiffness?

-Fiberglass body for a good presentable car could easily weight less than 10kg. 25kg is closer to the weight of the molds!

-It's possible to build a 600cc I4 FSAE car to under 200kg without the use of any CF. I bet it could be done even without aluminium, yet that might compromise manufacturability.

-Adress the problem and then find a solution. Not the other way around. Aluminium is not the solution for weight reduction, nor is any exotic material. But they can be when you've defined the whole problem.

-It's "acceptable" for the first car to weight >300kg as the project is very difficult to address without experience. However we've seen <250kg first year cars too. There is no excuse for the second car to be anywhere near 300kg anymore.

This is just to get you all thinking, no direct critisism intended. At least I had a lot of misconceptions about materials and weight (and everything) when I joined the team (aka the cool stuff to use). And a lot of those misconceptions are global.


Final note:

Brakes should be the first and the last functioning part on a vehicle. No exceptions.

[ftorque]

Thanks Markus.
One query.
How good are sliding caliper's used in braking by most Indian Teams.
The major problem that we face are the pads catching and leaving the rotors.(if i put it really simple). Heating up during endurance and autocross.
Yes, our assembly is also a question but can you address the above issue. I can mail you number of pics if you want.
Regarding weight. There is no 4130 available here. Proper grade Aluminium is difficult to find. Adjustable spring and dampers a big question to get.
Don't say import. Only we know how difficult is customs clearing here.
Fiberglass manufacturer's here, i won't comment on that.

[ftorque]

Also wanted to add 1018, 1020 is difficult to get.
Required FSAE thickness pipes also a problem.
I am trying to find the right dealers here.
I have personally send grades of steel and aluminum for testing to ascertain their composition and grades. Will post all details along with dealer, location and contact on this thread.
Maybe that's why this thread was started after all.

[Edward M. Kasprzak]

Originally posted by ftorque:
Required FSAE thickness pipes also a problem.

As an aside, there is a difference between pipes and tubes:
+ Pipes are specified by their inner diameter and wall thickness. They are typically used to transport fluids or gases.
+ Tubes are specified by their outer diameter and wall thickness. They are typically structural.

Be sure you're looking for tube, not pipe.

[ftorque]

Thanks Edward.
Commenting on FSAE Forums and working on Exhaust flow simulation in a company at the same time makes you to mix up things a bit.
Rest be assured i meant to say tubes.
Why i commented on thickness was out of the 7 dealers i visited 2 had the minimum required thickness for the standard tubing specified in rulebook. Have send those for testing now.
Hence we end up with frame members of higher thickness, and hence more weight.

[Claude Rouelle]

ftorque,

368 kilos (811 lbs) was the car weight.

What is the point?

I observed the team arriving late at the competition, leaving early and sitting there with 1 or 2 guys (if any) working on the car. Why? Why spending so much coming from so far away with so little work ethics?

How would their teachers, dean, sponsor, parents, friends react if they knew how little these students were unaware of the competition level and unwilling to face the challenges at the track.

If it is learn by challenging yourself in international competition get serious and aware of the minimum level to achieve.

I am well aware and (believe it or not, respectful) of the economical, cultural and educational difficulties of building a competitive car in India. But I also have respect for people who try the best they can. Did these students really try the best they could? Ask them.

Is anybody in India capable to learn from Orion Racing?

If it is about showing off go to Supra.

[Z]

Originally posted by Claude Rouelle:
How would their teachers, dean, sponsor, parents, friends react if they knew how little these students ....
Claude,

Therein lies the problem. IMO, the "teachers, dean, sponsor, parents, friends...." all think exactly the same way as the students.
~~~o0o~~~

Ftorque,

You are making too many excuses. In India you should have no trouble making a simple, reliable car, mostly mild-steel, about half the above quoted ~370kg, and capable of top-half of the ladder in any competition in the world. How hard is it to be just slightly better than "average"?!

It is your cultural problems that you have to solve, not supply of 4130 or other exotica.

Z

[ftorque]

Z just let me know what excuses i am trying to make. When i am constantly stating that i am not whining about our lack of parts but trying to find solutions.
Let me ask you?
How do you make a <350kg car here in India.
You tell me. I'll tell you if the stuff you want is available or not.
You though touched a very important point here.
The teachers, dean, friends.

About sponsors. Who cares? We have a hell lot of money here. Half of your UK motorsports hub are funded by Indian Companies. Formula 1, MotoGP., You name it, we are there. At least we have auto companies setting up a new plant here on daily basis, not shutting them down, like in other countries.
But what do we do with the money when importing things is so very difficult. We have to make do with whats available. And it's heavy!!

About families. The Indian Automotive Industries is waking up to a new dawn of motorsports culture. Families may follow suit.
They are more than happy their children are making a car. What car, What kind of event? They don't care.

My point is they came to the event. They saw what the level of competition is?
Hope the took something out of it and come again next year with a desire to excel.
Why sit and debate? They did this, they where not there, they lacked this?

So, Claude, it's not economical difficulties. And don't keep talking about Orion. I very well know what they are and how they go about with things. How many years did they take to reach this level. I don't question their passion and will to succeed. But where are they, when some team wants advice. Did they forget somebody advised them, when they started. How they started is just a guess for all you guys? I wont comment on them further. But if they symbolizes the best there is to come from India, then there's something wrong.

C'mon.
If this is the state, then the 17 other teams who withdrew from the FSAE Lincoln event must be awarded. The certificate should read,"Thank you for taking up the place of other team's who could have made a car and come to the event. But you where more than happy, just registering. So, Keep it up. Do it again next year. Till then we will always have a team from INDIA, to talk about."

All this writing just makes me wonder. Should i give FSAE 1 more shot. My team has registered for a event. Boy, its too tempting!!
Rectify every mistake i have done and maybe do some new ones this time. Because in the end you always will need a Team from India.

[Markus]

How do you make a <350kg car here in India.
Without getting too involved in the discussion, there is only one step to make a car <350kg and the step is valid everywhere in the world.

Step 1: Use less material.

How to achieve that is called engineering.

[ftorque]

Hello Markus.

Use less material.
How do you achieve it is called engineering.
Hmmm...

Yes, engineering is about finding solution to problems.
But solution that can be implemented in the given circumstances.
Not solution's, that become patented, and lie for years till the technology to implement it is invented. I mean it in FSAE terms.

[Simon Dingle]

Hi ftorque,


How do you make a <350kg car here in India.


I would copy this:

http://blog.simraceway.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/B13-at-PDC.jpg

It weighs 133kg and finished 22nd from 61 teams.

[ftorque]

Finally someone suggesting something.
Thanks Simon.
Yes i have read a lot about this car, and its a really good feat.

But again, i would start my "whining"(that's what everybody thinks we do here).
Rims: 8". The best we can do here is 13" about 4.2kgs each.
I don't know about the engine. But looking from the pics, it looks as a single. Maybe even 250-300cc.
Yes, we have that kind of bike for sale in India but then again it comes for the same price we can import a 600 for.
Difficult to get fully adjustable shocks here.

I have send sample's of 6061 and 7075 T6 Aluminum for testing. Will post on that as soon as i get those results.
Yes, and to all who kept replying to my post, this is the kind of car you may expect form India next year.
Expect a 390, 1-cyl KTM Duke engine(Weighs: 36 kgs).
13" Rims(4.2 kgs each)
3074 ERW1 or 1018 steel Spaceframe(Thickness an issue still).
NO differential.
Aluminum parts(After i get the test result)
Tires & Shocks(Getting all the options available here within a few days)

Thanks for your comments, criticism, sarcasm., etc. Maybe we are getting somewhere.

[happypranav]

Originally posted by Claude Rouelle:
ftorque,

368 kilos (811 lbs) was the car weight.

What is the point?

I observed the team arriving late at the competition, leaving early and sitting there with 1 or 2 guys (if any) working on the car. Why? Why spending so much coming from so far away with so little work ethics?

How would their teachers, dean, sponsor, parents, friends react if they knew how little these students were unaware of the competition level and unwilling to face the challenges at the track.

If it is learn by challenging yourself in international competition get serious and aware of the minimum level to achieve.

I am well aware and (believe it or not, respectful) of the economical, cultural and educational difficulties of building a competitive car in India. But I also have respect for people who try the best they can. Did these students really try the best they could? Ask them.

Is anybody in India capable to learn from Orion Racing?

If it is about showing off go to Supra.

Claude,

Our team participated in Formula SAE Lincoln 2013. Our car did weigh 368 Kilos, but what we learnt while making this 360 kilos is very very very huge. We observed all other cars very keenly and had discussion on building FSAE car. We are very inspired what design judges said to us and advised us to do. Looking at all this aspects our team decided to take part in Formula SAE Lincoln 2014 on the sight itself.

We came here with our car to take part in competition and show it to judges, to get some suggestions. I thank all judges again and again for their most valuable comments and suggestions on making a good and competitive FSAE Car.
Eagerly waiting for your suggestions on making a competitive car.

Pranav Shinde
Pune University Team
046 Formula SAE Lincon 2013

[Zac]

Originally posted by ftorque:
Hello Markus.

Use less material.
How do you achieve it is called engineering.
Hmmm...

Yes, engineering is about finding solution to problems.
But solution that can be implemented in the given circumstances.
Not solution's, that become patented, and lie for years till the technology to implement it is invented. I mean it in FSAE terms.

Here's the thing, if Indian teams were showing up to competition with complete, functional, reliable, and otherwise well engineered cars that quickly made it through tech inspection but lacked the technologies that western schools sometimes take for granted, then you wouldn't be catching flack from Claude. We all know you aren't going to have easy access to the best tires, engines, shocks, carbon fiber gizmos, etc. But the Indian schools largely haven't been doing this. The Indian Formula contraptions I've seen are typically heavy, feature a barely running 600c motor sourced from god knows where (and little to no access to parts), little thought given to proper safety equipment, and have a frame made with the worst load paths imaginable.

if you don't have easy access to 4130, don't use 4130. The rules say you can use 1010 which should be available nearly everywhere.

if you don't have easy access to adjustable shocks, think about whether you need adjustable shocks on the car. heck, think about whether or not you can replace the shocks with some other type of component. If the 1999 Akron car can win a world championship on rubber springs, a 2014 Indian entry can certainly get through tech inspection on them. You should also give thought to whether or not you need to copy the 4-corner push/pull rod suspensions featured on most cars (hint: you don't!).

if you find it difficult to get a hold of a non-domestic market sport bike motor, the obvious solution is to use something (anything!) that's available in the domestic market. There are plenty of small displacement 4 cycle motors in India, pick one of those.

Yes, there are going to be resource issues, both money and access, if you're trying to build a FSAE vehicle. This is the same everywhere in the world. Resource issues are never an excuse for bad design or lack of creativity. Design is free, stop making excuses.

[MCoach]

ftorque,

I would encourage a simple vehicle as well, but it needn't necessarily be a go-kart copy and here's several reasons to lead me to this conclusion:

Stuff like intake and exhaust simulation become a lot easier for a single, but if you don't have a great combustion and controls understanding then it isn't going to start. If you have easy access to a 600cc, run it. Support for those motors are everywhere and you only need it to fire on 50% of the cylinders to keep it running compared to 100% of a single cylinder. The motor may seem heavy, but that's not important. So, that's a 80kg motor to work with extras.

Weight reduction to get to the the smaller wheel packages only becomes important if you are targeting a car weight under 180 kg, above that you are better off running on 13's anyway. Tire load sensitivity is a bitch. Let's assume 13" wheels and a outboard package of 20kg per corner and total unsprung weight 80kg. No big deal. Brakes are included in here and the calipers can be pulled off of a motorcylce (make sure to get your load balancing calcs right).

The shocks used on the UC Berkeley car are Penske non-adjustable shocks typically used for quarter-midget cars that are raced here in the states, but I bet there are some shocks that are acquirable from nearby area outside India. Kookmin Racing (South Korea) I believe runs Ohlins dampers and there are quite a few options available out of Western Europe. Maybe a day trip for a team member could be used to pick up a set of dampers and then flown back if importing any are not an option. Even shocks that are meant for larger vehicles should be fine. Even if the car is overdamped, it'll run. Whatever you can get your hands on. So, let's assume about 2.5kg per damper, 10kg total.

A frame doesn't take much and slightly overbuilt, it can run up to about 40kg. Now, that will be heavier than about 90% of FSAE teams, but the goal isn't to be in the top 10%, it's to find reliable resources and prove India has what it takes to enter these competitions.

15kg bodywork, aluminum panels. It isn't carbon, but you don't need it. Formula 1 ran aluminum sheet metal for years, look into it for some inspiration. GFRP (fiberglass) isn't even recommended if you don't have the resources to create a quality mold.

I'll throw another 15kg at the car, just to take up a buffer in anything that might be in driver controls, electronics, hardware, etc.

This comes out to about 240kg. A bit over the 180kg mark, so 13" wheels are actually better for the loads, and possibly should look at how wide to go. Those can even be steel wheels pulled off of some Tata or other car for anyone cares. This may sound heavy, but it shouldn't worry you. A team recently came to the states, weighed in over 500lbs and proceeded to do very well in all events. This was Tallinn University from Estonia. If the money can be put down to send a car to the USA, then it can be reallocated to import parts and materials. We buy our calipers from a European company. Will they not ship to India? Put someone on a train, plane, or automobile (oh my!) to go get it.

If it exists, someone can get it. If you have the money to send a car across the ocean, then I envy you. It's just time to buckle down and focus on the basics.
----
From a personal standpoint, unless there is a serious quality issue for materials in India, then you shouldn't need to send out materials for testing with a called out specification such as T6. Hopefully it's close to this:
matweb.com 6061-T6 Spec (http://www.matweb.com/search/DataSheet.aspx?MatGUID=1b8c06d0ca7c456694c7777d9e1 0be5b)

----

Best of luck, and never ever give up.

http://walnet.org/sos/neverevergiveup-5in.jpg

[jlangholzj]

import

You keep citing difficulties with importing material. This must be a time problem, because apparently from your last post money is not an issue for you.

So then I ask, how is it any different when a team imports a steering rack, differential or other items that come from "across the pond".

Assuming its not, then we're back to a time problem...whether it's time through customs, or actual shipping time....its time. This can be resolved fairly easily....planning....

if it takes so long to import things...import items NOW for this next years season.

With steel and alloys...again, if money is no object then why not talk to any one of thousands of tubing dealers over here in the USA and pay the extra shipping cost to get it over there...sure you're 3 weeks and $400-$500 out...but that's planning and money. The latter of which is apparently not a problem.

If time is REALLY an issue...do a two year car. Spend the first year gathering all the materials and necessities to make it and then spend the second year building (that way any rules changes can be avoided).

The first year focus less on pure kinematic equations and do some simple 2D drawings on basic suspension. Who cares if your suspension design is great if you don't even pass tech?

After going to the Opt. G seminar after lincoln I'm FORCING the team this year to adopt many of Claude's quotes....one of which is "make it simple and useful before you make it complex" SUCH a great way to look at things.

If you just look at the bare essentials....It shouldn't be too terribly difficult to build a sub-250KG car. Another one to work by..."the lighter it is, the lighter it can be". This is one major area of focus for our team this year and something that needs to be constantly addressed.

All of this into consideration....again...at the risk of sounding like an a-hole...what really is holding you guys back? Something doesn't quite add up here. Be sneaky, exploit the grey area! That is after all...what racing is all about.

[Simon Dingle]

Originally posted by ftorque

But again, i would start my "whining"(that's what everybody thinks we do here).
Rims: 8". The best we can do here is 13" about 4.2kgs each.
I don't know about the engine. But looking from the pics, it looks as a single. Maybe even 250-300cc.
Yes, we have that kind of bike for sale in India but then again it comes for the same price we can import a 600 for.
Difficult to get fully adjustable shocks here.


Ok, so you can't get 8" rims. 13" rims will add about 20kg I would guess.

Why do you think that a 600cc 4-cylinder is better? If you can get a small engine that packages nicely then get it and use it.

As Zac said, you don't need dampers for FSAE. Frankly my preference would be for a simpler suspension concept that uses rubber pucks. Search Formula 500 in the states or (probably) the car that Zac referenced.

What else can't you make? At the moment your concept weighs 155kg.

[ftorque]

New guys posting on this thread make me feel like the bad guy.
First of all, i am totally against the 600 used by Indian Teams. And the mindset over here will definitely change with a just launched bike(Check previous posts).
Secondly, please at least go through the previous post to understand this thread better.
But let the suggestion(Really Good) coming in. I hope every team member of Indian Teams participating this year is reading.

[jlangholzj]

Originally posted by ftorque:
New guys posting on this thread make me feel like the bad guy.
First of all, i am totally against the 600 used by Indian Teams. And the mindset over here will definitely change with a just launched bike(Check previous posts).
Secondly, please at least go through the previous post to understand this thread better.
But let the suggestion(Really Good) coming in. I hope every team member of Indian Teams participating this year is reading.

I don't think (at least I'm not) any one here is trying to make you feel like the "bad guy" or make fun of any of the indian teams for that matter. Its just that some of these things are stuff that we've all gone through trying to get a FS/FSAE team off the ground.

In my case, I'm just curious what exactly is so hard about getting parts imported in. Every case that I tried to present may be less than ideal....but sometime less can be more!

There are times when I'm working on a car (well...anything really) that I get frustrated. Really, its unavoidable. At a certain point though I say to myself, Alright John...time to get out of "pissed off" mode and get into "problem solving" mode. At a certain point you really just need to quit saying why something is hard to do and try to do it!

an example might be asking some of the members on here WHERE they get their steel. Ours comes from a company called MAC steel in watertown SD. Its a half hour away for us...and I'm not entirely sure if they ship overseas...or what the cost would be but you'll never know until you ask! I mean....worst anyone can say is "no" right?

I mean....crap.....the number of companies I've called/emailed/talked to to get supplies, sponsorships and other material is staggering! That's why I made the point of saying "think outside the box". 9/10 times there's a solution but you just need to persevere and keep looking!

Also as an edit:
Look for services forwarding companies here in the USA as well as other countries. As far as I know, there are companies that will take care of the import/export duties for you for any companies that don't ship internationally. There's an added 10% or so mark up for tarrif and duties...etc....but you're still going to get parts.

[Simon Dingle]

Hi ftorque,

Sorry if my posts came across badly, I wasn't trying to have a go. My posts were genuine suggestions. I realise that the last post in particular might have sounded sarcastic but I was sincerely asking about other non-obtainable items. If there aren't any then I don't think it would be a terrible car. Maybe the wheels wouldn't be ideal, but if they're all you can get then that's the way it is.

I'll take your comment about reading all the previous posts. I try and catch up when I can, but if I'm going to comment I should probably make the effort to read everything that's been before.

[Claude Rouelle]

To happypranav

I just want you to explain how in the world you can send a car and a crew from so far away while you have not practiced and succeed in a simple brake test. I can accept everything providing I understand. Here I do not understand so you need to explain.

[happypranav]

Originally posted by Claude Rouelle:
To happypranav

I just want you to explain how in the world you can send a car and a crew from so far away while you have not practiced and succeed in a simple brake test. I can accept everything providing I understand. Here I do not understand so you need to explain.

Claude,
It is true that we had practice only for few days in India, but we were positive about Technical Inspection. We missed noise test, brake test and tilt test because we took more time in clearing Inspection. As it was our first time we misunderstood some rules which took time to rectify on event day. Thanks to other teams who helped us with welding, cutting and other stuff, we cleared Technical Inspection but unfortunately took more time and missed those tests by an hour. Our team really want to learn things, during the entire process we did went through no of books but unfortunately due to some problems were unable to put them in practice. If we wouldn't have come to event with our car I am sure we would have missed all most valuable remarks that judges gave to us.
We are eagerly waiting for your guidance for a team like us. How to get theoretical things done in practice.
Thank You

[Charles Kaneb]

happypranav,

When you drove your car back before you shipped it, were you able to lock-up all four wheels at the same time on pavement?

It can take a few tries to pass the brake-test at competition, mostly because nobody wants to lock the tires for a foot longer than they have to, but did your car stop hard when you drove it back home?

The brake-test is not a "theoretical thing" - competent brake system design and construction is a strictly practical exercise. Every single item you need to have adequate braking performance is readily available off the shelf in any country with automobiles. EVERY production car and light truck can either lock all of its tires, or has ABS and can brake even harder than simple lockup.

[ftorque]

Wow!
Judges giving advice and students taking it seriously.
It is just going uphill from here for us. Keeps getting better and better like The Doctor at Assen TT.

And jlangholzj, Simon i never feel bad about whats written here. I felt more delighted with the recent posts.
It's just when every one says the word 'import'. Just check out websites for Indian Custom Duty and Rules. You will understand how difficult it is. And the sliding rupee to dollar rate is making things more tough.
There are teams here who went ahead with imports of 600's. The engine came without ECU'S and other stuff missing. Not just one team. I personally know 3.
How can we expect then the university authorities to sanction more importing. And the bad thing is the same news spreads among faculty adviser's. When you say about steel tubes of some particular grades, there are dealers here who say they do have that. But they are fake. Hence my testing venture is on. Use 1010. Then you are bound to get a frame of 40-45kgs. Getting lesser than that will require calculations and fundamental understanding that 1st timers would never have because of the academic courses here. Something they will understand after going and interacting with teams at the event.

That's why i took a year-off FSAE and decided to find out the best possible solution(option's) and post it here. Something established teams(Claude are you listing) should have done already. You may think this is spoon-feeding and students must make it a 2 year venture and do market research and make phone calls. But if spoon-feeding is the way you all guys will see better Indian cars at FSAE, then so be it.

Judges still talk about some team which has been successful. But forget after how many years of making a vehicle? Expect the same from any new team coming from here(And i don't understand where from does a new team come up every year). They form a team and then starts the funny part. The authorities go through this forum. Then get to know, so and so team from Mumbai is successful. And decide we should also have a 600cc engine.
Now how do you expect to solve this problem. The adviser's are adamant and students very excited to be seeing a 600. If you pay them a visit stating use local products, 3 of 10 teams will listen. It is the mindset, which a fellow student can't change. It can be done by Claude, Pat.,etc and other important figures in FSAE. I have heard Pat is coming here. They do seminar's here. But don't address the main problem(mindset). Student come out of the seminar more motivated to make a better car and go for FSAE/FS events. With a 600 ,of course. It's the main ingredient.

That's why what pranav said was right. Go to the event. YouTube videos won't help. 70% show how good they are driving remaining 30% show how good 600, carbonfibre,adjustable shocks are. Understand where you stand and what is the level of competition. Decide what's your level and can you make a better car. If yes. Go ahead next year. Or be content with the Indian event. But as Pranav and many others will say and do is go back with a better car. There is nobody stopping you. The only thing you will get is more criticism. As i wrote earlier i will say again,

"If this is the state, then the 17 other teams who withdrew from the FSAE Lincoln event must be awarded. The certificate should read,"Thank you for taking up the place of other team's who could have made a car and come to the event. But you where more than happy, just registering. So, Keep it up. Do it again next year. Till then we will always have a team from INDIA, to talk about.""

[Charles Kaneb]

The 600, or the even more exotic 450 single, is not the key to good performance at FSAE!

A really good Bajamula on Hoosier 41100s would finish in the mid-teens at FSAE Lincoln.

A Bajamula is a competitive SAE Baja car that has had slick tires installed and the governor removed from the Briggs and Stratton lawnmower engine, with other minor changes as necessary to meet the FSAE rules.

[Claude Rouelle]

happypranav,

If you car do not pass the brake test before you ship it THEN DO NOT SHIP IT.

I would say the same for a minimum of 500 kilometers that you should run before you ship the car.

I am still completely bewildered by the inabilities of some teams to gather sufficient information to measure the state of preparation and readiness they need to achieve before even considering loading their car in the trailer or ship it. Total lack of realism. Total blindness about the level of excellence that is required from them. The FSAE competition is both engineering design and a project management competition? What project management skills did you demonstrate by shipping a car that YOU KNEW did not pass the brake test yet?

To learn? Well, what about this?....YOU say that YOU learnt a lot? YOU... That is a selfish statement!!!! But what about the others? What about your friends, teachers and family at home? Do you think they should be proud of you while you car did not even pass technical inspection? (That is if you have the honesty to tell these people that you made a 20000 miles round trip for a competition in which you didn't even compete) How do you think that other teams in the paddock look at you? They help you because that is what the FSAE spirit is about but don't you think they would have been even more happy for and if you haved had finished the 4 dynamics events? How do you think that judges look at your team and your car? Do you think that their feelings and opinion help you, the other Indian teams and their opinion about India in general?

I have seen so many Indian teams not passing tech who told me that "Sir, we promise you, Sir, we will have a better car next year, Sir" but one year later they come back with the same disaster. So I do not doubt you will try again but I will believe it when I will see it. This time do not only try harder but mainly try SMARTER! Can you do that?

*****

ftorque,

Yes I took Orion Racing as an example but this is an Indian example. To me any new team should pass tech the first year. Period.

I cannot speak for other judges but the MINIMUM I expect from a first year team is
A) to pass tech
B) to have some decent design with car in the 180 to 240 kg circa (depending the engine they use). This FSAE or Formula Student, not Formula Tank!
C) to be reliable enough to finish all 4 dynamic events. That is all not more. We can speak about being competitive in design and getting more speed on the track the year after. Without these 3 minimum achieved goals, I will respect their efforts but I will still be think that their best was not good enough enough and/or you were not capable of realistic project management.

As far as judges like Pat and I thinking that you need a 600 CC engine you are totally wrong. Statistically a 600 CC is more reliable than a mono cylinder but as Pat insist the bets engine is the one you can get.

[ftorque]

Thanks Claude.
Finally you wrote your heart out.
A post for every team member of Indian teams to read.
What judges actually want and what we are delivering?
25% of the job of starting this thread was completed by just the above post.

[happypranav]

To Claude,

Talking about the brake test that we did in India, it was done on tarmac with wet tires(as we did not have any slicks). We observed it braking properly after some time of warming. But we knew that FSAE tracks are not of tarmac, so the decision was made with some calculated risk to ship the car and participate. We may have lacked some project management skills, but we are learning from our mistakes.

And yes we are honest and are talking about the TRUTH to everyone. As far as our Parents, Teachers and Friends are concerned they all are happy in our happiness( Indian Flavor). Yes it is very true that we all team mates are not feeling good that we were not able to clear all four dynamic events, but at the same time are motivated for manufacturing of next car.

We have promised all our team members and family to work harder and smarter this time. You will definitely see it next year. Many experienced people even teams from other countries are helping us, and we have complete faith in them. We want you to guide us in this entire evolution from Tank to a good FSAE car.

Thank You
Pranav

[Claude Rouelle]

Pranav,


Talking about the brake test that we did in India, it was done on tarmac with wet tires(as we did not have any slicks). We observed it braking properly after some time of warming. But we knew that FSAE tracks are not of tarmac, so the decision was made with some calculated risk to ship the car and participate.

You are so full of it. "Calculated risk"... Are you kidding or what? A woman is pregnant or she isn't, right? There is no 1/2 way solution. Same for the brake test: either you pass it or you don't.

Telling me that the test was made in India on another surface and that is the reason why you were not able to pass it in Lincoln is pathetic. If you have the brake power and you have a decent dynamic brake balance and a decent dynamic corner weight distribution you will be able to pass the brake test whatever surfaces you trained for on.

If you ship your car and you were not able to run several endurance simulations and pass the brake test either you are stupid or you are blind. It is too late to cry now: it is 1 year ago, while you were planning that you should have been crying. IF YOU FAIL TO PLAN YOU PLAN TO FAIL. And that is what happened; you fail to plan.

Let's say you would have pass the brake test and the whole tech inspection.... I bet your car will have not finished the endurance. Not at 811 lbs and not with all the design mistakes, REIB and other compliance I saw on your car!

As you claim you are honest let me refer to your honesty and ask you to sincerely answer this: how many endurance tests, how many kilometers of testing did you do before you shipped your car?

[happypranav]

Claude,

As I have stated earlier we were not able to attempt brake test in Lincoln as we were late in clearing technical inspection.
We had around 150 km of testing in India.
What is REIB ?

[Claude Rouelle]

Pranav,

You were the one bringing the brake test conditions in India and explaining the conditions in which you made that test so I commented on it.

REIB; look in this forum. Pretty common term in FSAE.

"around" 150 KM? If you keep a logging sheet of your runs you should be able to give an exact lap number, distance number etc...but OK...Out of 150 KM were you able to make one non stop endurance test with a 3 minutes max driver change?

[happypranav]

Claude,

We did not have any driver change. We just had one driver who tested the car for skid pad , braking etc.
What I have learnt from your past few posts is that perfect planned practice is very essential.

[Claude Rouelle]

Pranav,

So you did not do one real endurance simulation? Do I understand it correctly?

[happypranav]

Claude,

Yes as we were short of time. We didn't had a real endurance simulation. We did not even had such big track to practice for endurance.

[Claude Rouelle]

Pranav,

Then we are back to the beginning and the central question:

How, with so little state of readiness, with not even one endurance simulation test, can you send a car from the other side of the planet (I can't even think about the cost), unreasonably spending the money and the reputation of your sponsor(s), risking the confidence and the investment of your parents, risking the reputation of your university and your country? Also how is it possible that your university and you faculty adviser(s) did let you do that?

That, to me, is beyond any acceptable level of sanity. I am completely bewildered. You (or somebody in this forum) has to explain.

[happypranav]

Claude,

We are first year team with 15 students out of which eight are studying in third year and seven are studying in second year of four year degree program. All decisions were to be made by few members from these team only. We were positive about the competition but lacked in experience and had no idea about level of this competition. Our decision was outcome of above reasons.

[Claude Rouelle]

Pranav,

You had no experience, that is OK. Nobody can blame you for that; you need to start somewhere.

However, you wrote you "had no idea about level of this competition" NO idea? Not one....? You did not collect any information? You did not conduct any evaluation what was needed?

Did you send a few guys including a faculty adviser at least one year ahead of the competition to at least one FS or FSAE event? If not why?

Did you speak with other teams (Indian or not, successful or not)?

Did you have at least a definition of what a good car and a good team is?

That you couldn't design and build a good car and create a good team is OK (again you need to start somewhere) but that you wouldn't take the time to at least make a list of what a good car and a good team is, that is what would troubling.

It is as if an army was going to war with even thinking about evaluating the forces of their opponents and/or the terrain they will have to fight on. That is what I do not get at all.

So let me ask you a "constructive" question. BTW the answer could be useful for you, your team and any new team, Indian or not.

With what you now know, what do you think you could have done better, ahead of time to evaluate the difficulties and the challenges you were going to face?

I think a honest and detailed answer to this question could be the first step of a better 2014 Pune team and car.

[happypranav]

Claude,

We would have taken following actions
1. we would have started manufacturing quite earlier so that we get at least 45 days for practicing and rectifying errors.( We would have did this but material of specified thickness and od were not available, we wasted almost a month in getting material this is again a long story)
2. We designed entire car by considering ease in manufacturing. we would have made some good designs for front and rear suspensions and hubs and manufacture them. AS rear drop arm suspension was very very heavy we would have designed push rod. Rod ends are used of large diameters which have added weight.
3. AS far as practice track for endurance is concerned I think ARAI has some facility. so we would have asked them to help us.
4.Our car was over designed, judges have explained us a lot on this, especially the engine compartment had very large number of members. We would have designed it properly and reduced the number of members, same for entire car so that weight would have reduced.
5.Next comes the weight added due to body(That was complete dead weight). We would have made a simple body using sheet metal.
6.Some more weight was added due to steering assembly and ABC point as it was directly taken from an car. In this case we would have manufacture a simple assembly as I saw for all fsae cars at lincoln, this would have reduced much of weight.
7.If you have observed, we have used huge number of fasteners which are not actually required. We would have reduced weight here.
8.And yes how can I forget our differential housing..! It is made too heavy and over designed.
Sorry I am not a good editor.

[Claude Rouelle]

Pranav,

Thank you for your quick reply. Looks like you don't sleep much.

- I keep saying that you need 5 to 6 months of testing, even more if you are a new team. 45 days is ridiculously not enough. What do you do if you have a major failure or a crash and on top of that a supplier which do not have the parts you need in stock? 5 o 6 months of testing leaves you 6 to 7 months for the car and jigs concept, simulation, drawing, manufacturing and assembly (and transportation....). If you can't make the design phase in these 6 or 7 months then you need to work on a 2 year program. There is plenty of good advise from Kevin Hayward and "big Bird" (just to name a few) on that topic in this forum. Pat Clarke Pat's corner on the Formula Student Germany website is also excellent

- What is interesting is that it appears that the lessons that you learnt seem to be concentrated on the car design and manufacturing and the advice you got from judges. In a simplified way, I sense that you thought about your car design as a heavy LEGO; the engine here, the wheels there and some tubes in between. Crude description I concede but not far from reality.
- What I feel is missing the most is a start from a white sheet of paper which defines and describes what is a good car (and also a good team) is THEN and only then use basic simulation and CAD. - - Form follows function. If the functions are not well defined the form won't be either. If you do "form follows function", it is possible to get a car which is light, stiff, reliable and relatively cheap to manufacture.
- Acquire some basic good engineering design principles. Examples: make sure that you suspension linkages axis crosses a chassis node, avoid REIB, estimate the basic tire forces and moments to calculate the suspension members forces (most of the people call it load path) so that you choose the dimension of your suspension tubes and the size of your rod end appropriately.

- Before you go ahead in the 2014 (or ideally a 2015, make it a 2 years process) car design, I think you should

- browse this forum and read post about car design and concept
- make you own list of what YOU think a good car and good team is. Do that BEFORE you listen to others (students or judges) and BEFORE you look at other car pictures in the internet or at other competitions. BEFORE; that is much more powerful.
- learn the basics of project management. There are good books and videos on youtube. I have to say that the ones from Indian universities seem a bit too academic.
- attend other FS or FSAE competition and meet a maximum of other teams. The next one is in 4 weeks in Germany. I will be happy to speak to you if you go there.
- not be afraid to ask questions. I have been teaching students and company seminars and university course for 16 years to over 10000 engineers or students and I never heard a stupid question
- F= M*a . In a simplistic way "a" (lateral acceleration) is mainly dependent of you tire coefficient of friction. For a given tire you will have a basic MU (boy this is oversimplified but let's try) and for that given Mu, the more mass (M) the more force (F) you will have and the more suspension and chassis deflection you will have. One solution is to make the car elements stiffer by adding material but then you start the crescendo towards disaster with car which are overweight like yours. The other solution is to make the car lighter: less mass, less force less need to be stiff. I explained that in details in past posts.
- check he list of good book books suggested in this forum.
- you might want to watch http://vimeo.com/41854831 and if possible attend one OptimumG seminar. I have 36 years of experience in racing but remember also that I could be (and have been) wrong. Any good source of advice an opinion is valuable

I know I am not giving you enough. To give you more I will need 2 or 3 weeks with your team and even if that was possible that would not be enough for you to digest all the information. Remember that success in FSAE is at least a 5 year process. It takes times. But pleaaaase, try to plan for a smarter and lighter car with enough testing next time. Nobody wins otherwise.

If you fail to plan, you plan to fail.

[happypranav]

Claude,

Its true that I don,t sleep much, planning for next car have crowded my mind with different thoughts.

Your video was inspirational and all your advice will definitely be helpful.

Thank you

[happypranav]

Claude,

Almost in all fsae cars that I saw engine mounting and its packaging is excellent. It looks very compact and reduces length of chassis. I would like to try similar things, so what factors should I consider while playing with engine mounting?

Thank you

[jlangholzj]

Originally posted by happypranav:
Claude,

Almost in all fsae cars that I saw engine mounting and its packaging is excellent. It looks very compact and reduces length of chassis. I would like to try similar things, so what factors should I consider while playing with engine mounting?

Thank you

this is something that *you* have to make the decision on. There's a fair amount of knowledge that people like claude, pat, steve, geoff, etc can teach us to HELP design the car we have in mind, but they're not going to hand you anything over. Besides...what are you going to learn then?

Like mentioned above, do some reading around on the forum. Look at lots of pictures, then come to a design choice about your engine mounting. Use that practice on about everything on the car.

You're going to have to work at this a bit, the first few designs are almost guaranteed to not be up to your expectations but after a few iterations it gets better.

[Claude Rouelle]

Pranav,

Either the question you asked is too simplistic or I do not understand it. Can you please elaborate?

Without more information from you I would say that you design the engine around the chassis (at least in the chassis area) and to do that you first need a) to be sure you choose the right engine and b) get the engine drawings and their "accessories": inlet manifold, exhaust, transmission, fuel lines, electronic etc... And do not forget the RULES!

If you do not have the drawings then you and get the engine measurements yourself with good instruments and the engine on a marble or at least a flat reference surface.

But that would be the wrong first step.

From what I read it seems to me you are using the LEGO method again by concentrating directly on one area (engine mounting) before having a global / holistic concept of the car. You already try to design a car or a part of the car without asking yourself fundamentals questions such as, for example, what is the level of performance I am supposed to reach to be competitive in FSAE? How do I get there fro example in terms of grip laterally, longitudinally (acceleration and braking), transient, energy consumption....

That will influence of the decision in the power (engine) you need, the grip you need (tires), the acceleration you need (mass) the stiffness you need (suspension and chassis), the transient characteristics you need (inertia, damping, the energy you need.... FORM FOLLOWS FUNCTION. By looking at your engine installation you do function follows form. Wrong way.

Here is my advice for chronological steps (see other of my FSAE post on that

1. Concept

2. Simulation then and only then comparison with what the others are doing

3. Drawing

4. Manufacturing

5 Assembling

That is about 50% of your time

The

6. Test / Break it (something will break I guarantee it as much as just looking at your car last week I guarantee you that you would not have finish the endurance ) / Understand why it did break / Redesign / Test / and train your driver

That is 50 % of the time

For the moment you need to go in phase 1; Concept. At your level we probably are speaking about a few months not a few weeks to accumulate and digest enough information to master a car concept.

Have a look at the OptimumLap software that you can download from our website; it is free of charge and it will help you to decide the compromise between grip, weight and power you need. Forget about aero and wings or composite material for now; your team is way too young and too inexperienced to play with that yet. If you have question about OptimumLap there is an email address where you can ask question; we always answer.

Just a quick note: 75 % if the top 20 world ranking FSAE or FS teams are using at least two of these software packages: OptimumLap or OptimumTire or OptimumKinematics.

[The_Man]

I always shiver then I suddenly see traffic on this thread, that is justified because once and only one there has been good news. It is really sad to see this happen over and over again.

I personally hate sentences that start with “We are a first year Indian team with a limited budget, hence.....”

Firstly, the team is not really a team with a limited budget if it can cough up the 3 million Rupees that is required to just transport the team and the car half way around the world and back. Seriously, the team has a bigger budget than most of the local teams at the competition.

Secondly, what is with branding oneself as an “Indian team”? Is special privileges and sympathy expected? This team is no different from any other team that is at the competition. May be there is difference in the amount of experience you have but there are other first year American/European teams too. They seemed to have learned much faster, more importantly they seem to have more drive (pun intended).

Thirdly, why start a sentence (sometimes even design reports) with this excuse? When I interact with a lot of these Indian teams all I really see is an excuse for everything. My favorites -

• The teams out there have very professional brake equipment from the likes of AP Racing and Wilwood, ours could not possibly compete with them

No! There is enough brake equipment to be found in India. As a rule of thumb if you use brake components used in a heavier vehicle and still does not lock your four wheels you have gotten something wrong. In fact you can buy good quality brake equipment in India for a fraction (a tenth!) of the price of what the other teams buy. Yes the brake feel might not be consistent but you have a functional car. You can improve a lot more things on the car before it is limited by the quality of the braking.

• We could not find the correct steel tubing required as per the rules

Nonsense, you did not look hard enough. India is a manufacturing hub for the entire planet. It’s a piece of cake to find what you need if you know where to look for it. There is no internet retailer and there is no one stop shop for this, I grant you that but it is there. Every city of every size has a metal market, there you will find everything you need. You just need to look hard enough. The rules are quite flexible too. There a ton load of tube sizes that fit the bill. Carry a caliper and a thickness gauge if you do not trust the vendor. Things are readily available in India, at a very good price too.

• The vendor cheated us!

You got cheated, is a better way to put it. How does an uneducated businessman cheat a soon to be qualified engineer? I agree there are cheats out there some will never deliver the goods, some will try sell you scrap and some will give you the wrong grade but there are things that you can do to avoid this. India has its own standards when goods are sold, every steel alloy has a marking on the tube sometimes engraved some painted symbols. The vendor should also be able to produce a certificate for every piece of metal he sells. Still some will manage to cheat you, but once you go through this you learn and buck up. In my experience if I ask 5 vendors for something, 2 will cheat you, 2 will be indifferent and 1 will love the fact that you are a student and you are doing this, he will go out of his way to help you. Find this guy he is easy to spot, you just have to look.

• We just can’t find Carbon Fibre

You don’t need Carbon Fibre; there are other places to gain performance at.

• Things got delayed because of exams/one team member had a family emergency/third party x did not deliver on time/ this did not work so last minute ‘jugad’ has to be done.

Excuses, lack of drive, no motivation, just want stuff on CV, satisfied by the fact that you participated no effort to try harder, no effort to lead a team of inspire juniors, and “Yay! Sponsored trip abroad, hmmm what should I shop for?”

This year I made an effort to tackle this problem in another way. I have gone out of my way to reach out to, help out and try to send the message many judges at these competitions are sending to teams that planned international events this year. 3 responded, 2 cared and 1 understood is my opinion. I visited 2 universities (spoke over the phone to the 3rd) with a 140 slide presentation talking about the things we have been talking about on this forum. Not technical stuff, just to do’s and do not’s (Thanks, Geoff for helping out with this).

I recently followed up with the 3 teams (I know they are reading this) and I was in despair to find out the situation. 1 team withdrew (good decision), 1 team I am afraid might end up at the competition with a “half baked car” (guy’s read above thread, reconsider giving yourself another year.) and 1 team I am glad to say has a good car (I’ll have to wait until Silverstone before I write more).

I am happy (not satisfied) with 1 out of 3, but the others, many others made excuses – exams (FSAE is clearly less important), ordered steel tubes did not show up for 3 months, now no testing time (did not plan, expected things to magically work), engine was too expensive (still have money to go to a competition), ECU blew off (it is in your hands, you are an engineer), and on and on and on.

This year I am supporting Baja and Supra teams, to see if it is any better locally, and I am terrified to say it might be worse. Still it’s people like “you” (yes You, Indian team guy) and me who have seen things abroad and understood them to make things better.

Meanwhile,
STOP cribbing, DO something. It is NOT easy, NO one likes excuses.

PS: Now before people (again) start attacking me, this is not directed at any individual team but applies to every “Indian team”. Things need to change.

[Pradeep]

Hi,

Nice to see the old debate stirred up again. This reminds me of a document I had compiled for my former team (Formula Manipal) back in 2011 (seems like yesterday ..sigh). Anyway I have posted it online (again!), so some of the new teams can also use it to their advantage : http://www.scribd.com/doc/1515...y-of-Formula-Manipal (http://www.scribd.com/doc/151586469/The-History-of-Formula-Manipal).

It contains all of the (hard) lessons learnt by our team in 2008, 2009 and 2010 seasons. Unfortunately I have not had the time to update it with more lessons learnt at DUT Racing. Maybe in the future, I will write a comparison of the experiences of working in Manipal and Delft. Bottomline - No matter which part of the world you are in, doing Formula Student is essential to learn the 'real deal' about engineering and life.

However, I am afraid that in time the link to the document will get lost in the millions of posts, making it near impossible for new teams to find it. It'll be nice if someone can come up with a way to avoid this from happening.

[happypranav]

Pradeep,

History of Formula Manipal is nice that will really help us. Thank you.

Pranav
Pune University

[Big Bird]

Functional analysis of vehicle design

Mahek wants to sit down. To do so, he needs a chair.

Mahek wants to move from where he is, to where he isnt. He doesn't want to get out of his chair. So his chair needs wheels.

Mahek wants his chair with wheels to move faster than he can push it. Therefore he needs additional energy (e.g. fuel) and a way to convert that energy to motion (e.g. a motor). He needs to connect some wheels to the motor, and the motor and the other wheels to the chair.

He wants the wheels of his self-powered chair to be able to absorb bumps, so the axles need to move up and down relative to the chair. We want to steer this thing, so we need to be able to rotate the front axles around a vertical pivot. We want to stop this thing, so we need a retardation device anchored between the wheels and the chair.

As an engineer, Mahek sees his speedy chair project as an exercise in sourcing components and making brackets and levers to connect them.

From here, it is our choice as to whether we choose to complicate the project by desiring a component that is further away than the one nearest to us, or by desiring an arrangement of components more complex than the simplest one to do the job.

The hormonal changes that occurred to you during puberty are the foundation of any urge you might have to escalate the project beyond the most basic level.

Cheers all

[JWard]

Pradeep, your document is very useful and insightful to a vast majority of teams imo. Especiially:
Left:
Initial attempts at organizingthe workshop and tools failed. Thesuspension team guarded the no.13spanner with their lives

One team member bought each of the other team members a 13mm spanner each.

It's an interesting read, I will be sharing this with my previous team!

[Z]

Three pages of advices sent from all around the world in just one week, all to help Indian teams build better cars.

Why aren't the advices on the rest of this Forum good enough? Will the Indian-specific advices somehow work better? How will we ever know?

Hmmmmm, ... thinking ... thinking ..... Yes!
~o0o~

HappyPranav,

Can you please post lots of pictures of your ~370 KG car on this thread. I, for one, am fascinated to know how it is possible to build such a car.

And next year you can post lots of pictures of your "better adviced" car, and we will all know how well that advice worked.

Z

[The_Man]

Haha. Nicely put Geoff.

Yes, what you see is an issue sometimes specially with teams that have returned from visiting a competition for the first time. It is very easy to get overwhelmed by looking at the competition. The Carbon Fiber, the wings and the other "fancy" innovations. It is easy to conclude that not having these things has caused the performance deficit.

It is important to understand that these team invested in these things because they could not find performance else where. As for Indian teams the most performance they will find is not in these things but in testing and training the driver. I am not against the use of carbon fiber, wings etc. but I am not a fan of having them on the car because other higher finishing teams have them.

On an aside, anyone who has been at Silverstone this weekend - What's the verdict on the 2 Indian cars (that did dynamics) there?

[ftorque]

Which two teams? Are you talking about the IIT's?
Last thing i heard was both had a DNF in Endurance.
For Autocross only IIT Bombay made 3 runs. Others DNF.
For skid-pad all DNA.
For Acceleration all DNA. Results posted on official website. So a very bad showing by well established teams from the best universities.
So now the question arises.
Do the new teams only need advice or do the guys who go every year need to go back to the drawing board as well!!!!
And what happened to TU Delft at Silverstone?
As with the pranav case that has been discussed a lot on this thread. I saw the vehicle. Maybe he should have concentrated on the Safety bits on the car to clear tech spec. Because his car braked well. Well enough to satisfy the judges.

[happypranav]

Hi,

We are thinking to manufacture complete shocks or rather modify presently available shocks in India for our new fsae car, rather than using fox, penske or Kaz which are not readily available to us and which are far away from our budget.

Am I going right way or should I go with fox and all those standard stuff.

Pranav
Pune University
India

[Zac]

There are teams that have had success manufacturing their own dampers. However there generally isn't a performance benefit to doing so. The costs in terms of materials and effort (manufacturing + design) will far outstrip any savings you think you might achieve by making them in house. This is the type of resource draining project that will prevent you from getting a car done easily.

My recommendation would be to do your best to source downhill or cross country mountain bicycle shocks locally (these should be available somewhere) or worst case the rear shocks from some sort of motorcycle or scooter.

You can also forgo traditional dampers completely and use rubber pucks instead. Do a google search on Formula 500. There have been world championship FSAE teams that used this method.

[happypranav]

Zac

Thanks for your info about formula 500.

Pranav
Pune University
India

[Jay Lawrence]

Pranav,

To reinforce the above:
UoW won the world championship in 2003 (with the 2002 car, Stumpy) using push bike shocks. You do NOT need Penske/Ohlins/KaneCreek/etc.

[Claude Rouelle]

To Jay Lawrence

...unless your car is 800 lbs (+ driver)

f = 1/(2*pi)*sqrt (K/M) and C = 2*Sqrt(K*M)

If you have a big mass you will need stiff springs (to control suspended and non suspended mass movements due to heave, roll and pitch accelerations) and also so big damping..... that I doubt you will get from bike dampers.

[stayflatandkeepturning]

Ive been following the forum for years as well as this thread because it can be quite comical at times. But recently I have been wondering what some teams are thinking when they design components and assembles as far as weight. There is no reason for a car to be over 500lbs - driver in this competition and to be honest a well designed 4 cyl car should be close to 400 and a single under 350lbs. These are not that hard to achieve you just have to put more effort into material selection and how to manage the forces. Every ounce counts in this competition so why not go for it.

[Z]

Originally posted by stayflatandkeepturning:
There is no reason for a car to be over 500lbs - driver in this competition and to be honest a well designed 4 cyl car should be close to 400 and a single under 350lbs.
Agreed!
~~~o0o~~~


Originally posted by Claude Roulle:
...unless your car is 800 lbs (+ driver)
Claude,

I am confused. Are you suggesting that Pranav SHOULD build an 800 lb car?
~~~o0o~~~

Pranav,

Will we ever see pictures of your 800+ lb car? I am really looking forward to seeing it...

Z

[Warpspeed]

It's probably really a 100 Lb car with a 700 Lb driver.

[happypranav]

Areion 2013 (http://happyengineering.blogspot.in/2013/07/formula-sae-lincoln-2013.html)

Above is Image of our Formula SAE car.

Pranav Shinde
Pune University

[Z]

Originally posted by happypranav:
Areion 2013 (http://happyengineering.blogspot.in/2013/07/formula-sae-lincoln-2013.html)

Above is Image of our Formula SAE car.

Pranav Shinde
Pune University
Pranav,

"The longest journey begins with a single step...". In your above car you have already taken the first few steps, which is good! If you can find the right direction, and keep heading that way, then in the next few years you should enjoy a lot more success, which is fun!

My suggestion for a direction:

YEAR 2014 - Do an evolution of your above car. Keep the same engine (assuming it works ok). Remove a lot of the tubework at the back of the chassis. There really doesn't have to be any chassis behind the diff (only the orange jacking bar). The left sidepod seems to only hold two small batteries, so mount batteries in engine-bay and remove left sidepod. The right sidepod probably holds the radiator (?). If so, then mount radiator close behind engine (less pipes, less chance of airlock, plus good thermo-siphon). Remove right sidepod.

The overall width of the car and the cockpit size seem a bit on the large size. Reduce track-width slightly (check this Forum for typical dimensions), and make the cockpit just a few centimetres larger than the mandatory template sizes. I can't see the chassis in front of engine, but there are probably quite a few tubes too many. The mandatory roll hoops, front and side impact structures, and so on, are almost all you need.

DO NOT ADD ANYTHING NEW. Just keep whittling away at what is there. By the end of this year you should have a leaner, meaner car that is closer to 270kg, rather than your current ~370kg. That gives you six months of testing to make sure it all holds together, and that those brakes can lock all four wheels. Of course, parts will possibly break in testing, so you remake them a bit better, and more testing...

By this time next year your whole team should be most chuffed that you have completed every event at an international competition, and placed in the top 40% (?) !

YEAR 2015 - You now build a car around one of India's locally available single-cylinder engines. The car has 10 inch wheels and tyres (you sourced these at the 2014 comp). Everything is slighly smaller and simpler again. It all fits together better because your team is much more proficient at the little details of design, and at welding, and machining, and so on. The car weighs under 200kg and is finished six months before comp. At the international 2015 competition you again complete all events, and place ..... (well, I'll let you fill that last bit in http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ).

Z

[happypranav]

Z,

Thank you very much, I am expecting such guidance
from all experienced people.
Evolution is perfect word for team like us.
It will take time, but will make ACTUAL FSAE car.

Your idea of SINGLE cylinder engine and 10 inch wheels is Interesting.

Pranav
Pune University
India

[Pradeep]

I love the idea of Royal Enfield 500cc engine + 10 inch wheels !

If I were to make a FS car in India again, I would definitely look at this option seriously. The reasons being
1) We spent a LOT of time and money in procuring the engine (Honda CBR600 RR), its spares and then learning to tune the damn thing ! It was a nightmare. (See 'The History of Formula Manipal' for details)

2)a new well-tuned Royal Enfield engine will be more reliable than a second(third ?)-hand Honda which has not been tuned properly.

[happypranav]

Pradeep,

I have no more experience than one year in formula sae. Yes Royal Enfield 500cc engine (40 nm torque and 27 bhp) is good, but I think Honda cbr 250 (40 bhp and 22 nm torque) might be good option considering power to weight ratio, fuel efficiency and yes remembering the format of competition i.e endurance, autocross and skid pad we need better weight distribution which might be tricky using Enfield.

Pranav
Pune University
India

[ftorque]

Honda CBR 250?
Hmm!
40 bhp??? I don't think so.
And with all the weight distribution talk and using the single cylinder available in India my best bet would be the KTM Duke 390.
It has a 375cc engine which makes 45PS/44.4hp @ 9500rpm and 35Nm @ 7250rpm.
The engine weighs only 36kgs and it's a single cylinder.
The engine comes with a 4 valve-DOHC head, a forged piston, NiCaSil cylinder lining, DLC coated cam followers, liquid cooling and fuel injection.
The Bike was just launched at 1.8 lakh ex-showroom.

[94vishu24]

Hi all
First of all, people like claude being so interested in helping is a luxury (he may be helping u more than any of your professors).
and yea, the team which went to lincoln may have had a bad car and they clearly lacked research which should be present but looking at their car, i see that whatever they made, came out of their own heads rather than out of an fsae car pic(oh come on you learn a lot by pics :P).
And them being just second and third years and I'm sure with the lack of college support they must be having, they learnt a LOT.

okay i agree going to Lincoln was a big bad decision and they have a way to go.

But credit to free, independent thinking.
That is whats required in India, it being a country of plagiarists.

PS: HappyPranav, don't make you own shock man! there are better things to worry about

[Claude Rouelle]

people like claude being so interested in helping is a luxury (he may be helping u more than any of your professors).

Maybe...

But last time I went to India (at my own expense, although it was part of a longer international business trip) with the hope I could help it was for Supra 2012 and...I was kicked out of the circuit.

Why? Ask Dinesh, Kamal Vora and their organization. Maybe they did not want me to tell face to face the flagrant proposal of corrupted business (that I of course refused) I received from India organizations linked to Indian students education. They know very well what I am speaking about. I also know for a fact I am not the only one from the US who went though the same issues.

I was so pissed off that I cancelled the seminar which price was 1/4 of the usual student price which is itself 1/5 of the professional price and which was supposed to happen the next day. All participants were reimbursed in less then 49 hours. Bye bye India.

37 years of International racing in many different countries and racing series including Formula One, Indy Car, World Touring car Championship.... I never have any problem on a racing circuit with any organizers. But that happened in India.

I will continue to help all students as much as I could from any country, probably even more the ones from "emerging" countries which are trying so hard to catch up.

I am not done with India Students but I am done with India Supra, SAE India, India FSAE etc..

Stay away from bureaucracy, corruption and organization of which the # 1 goal is not student knowledge and skills development.

[Jay Lawrence]

Ftorque, drop the KTM 390 engine idea. It is a complex and unproven engine that you know nothing practical about. If you must use a more fancy single than the Enfield, at least look at something that has been proven successful (WR450F, KTM450EXC, CRF450, etc.). At this point think of the 390 as the next Aprilia twin (looks great on paper, but much more difficult (even for strong established teams) in practice).

Definitely agree with Z's recommendations. That car looks pretty reasonable. To be honest I find it hard to believe it weighs as much as it does! Just be careful placing the engine heat exchanger at the rear, as it may be difficult to justify the yaw inertia contribution.

[happypranav]

Stay away from bureaucracy, corruption and organization of which the # 1 goal is not student knowledge and skills development.

Like That..very true

[nowhere fast]

Jay,

I'm not sure if you're aware, but the KTM 390 Duke is a road bike suitable for commuting. It should have far lower maintenance requirements than any of the engines sourced from high performance dirt bikes.

I think they might be a good choice depending on availability and price.

[Bemo]

I had several discussions with people from Indian teams about engine choice in the past.

During that I got the impression that one problem is that people are usually only one year in the team and refuse to just build a simple car which is working. Usually I hear stuff like "we need the Honda, the Enfield is too heavy/big/weak, so we're not competitive with that."
And normally they end up with an engine which is not running. As for all design decisions you should think about ALL factors. What's the best engine worth, if it is almost impossible to get spare parts or any information?
There is already a thread "How to choose an engine" (or something like that, I don't have the exact title in my mind) with quite a lot of interesting discussion about what you want from an engine, and what you don't want. Most importantly you don't want it to cause trouble all the time. Having an engine which is running reliably and delivering some decent power (this doesn't mean 100 bHP, 50-60 bHP are enough to performe well in FSAE) is worth quite a lot. That's kind of the minimum requirement.
As long as you're at a state where you're happy if you manage to build a rules compliant car which is working at all, you should stay with this requirement.
Also here in Europe a lot of new teams make the mistake to try to build a way too complicated car in their first year and fail to complete it.
A car for FSAE can be extremely simple and still competitive. If you take a look at the history of succesful teams you will see, that they usually started with very simple low-tech cars and optimized from there.
Teams who try to build complex cars from the beginning usually fail, they never get decent testing kilometers and therefore never catch up in experience.

To come back to the engine topic. Before discussing engines which are available on the market, analyse what the key factors are for this decision. THEN you should start looking for specific engines and choose the one which is matching your list best.

[Claude Rouelle]

Before discussing engines which are available on the market, analyse what the key factors are for this decision. THEN you should start looking for specific engines and choose the one which is matching your list best.


I am not an engine guy. I did built and dyno and tune engines enough that I do not feel ridiculous when people speak about engines to me but I have definitely less experience on engine than on vehicle dynamics.

That being said, Bemo comments are consistent with the ones I gave on chassis and suspension concept and design.

Forms follow functions.

Understand what you are trying to achieve before you decide how you will achieve it. It requires some critical and abstractive thinking before rushing to the supplier, the CAD software or the machine shop.

Critical thinking and non-emotional, abstractive, objective decision making process by one person and/or in a group is regrettably something that I do not see being taught enough in universities these days (or used enough in companies either)

There are a few very good critical thinking and creativity videos on youtube that are worth to watch.

[Claude Rouelle]

a lot of new teams make the mistake to try to build a way too complicated car in their first year and fail to complete it.
A car for FSAE can be extremely simple and still competitive. If you take a look at the history of succesful teams you will see, that they usually started with very simple low-tech cars and optimized from there.
Teams who try to build complex cars from the beginning usually fail, they never get decent testing kilometers and therefore never catch up in experience.

Alleluia! http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[ftorque]

To Jay Lawrence & nowhere fast & Bemo
What should be the key factors for finalizing the engine:
1. My first priority would be to buy something which is available in the market and which won't put a dent on the team budget. Something that i can go to the local mechanic guy and get it fixed when i cant.
2. You rightly put the mindset of Indian Teams regarding the Enfield Engine. But i am strongly against the other options you suggested(WR450F, KTM450EXC, CRF450). None of it are available in the Indian market, and so the knowledge of new teams regarding them is next to zero.
3. So whats the problem in buying an engine which is cheap, the bike is assembled in Chakan, Pune, India at the Bajaj plant and there are a hell lot of mechanics out there who know the KTM's well because of the younger sibling, the 200 being here in India since a long time.

[TMichaels]

Just adding another point to the discussion;
I have never seen an Indian team at comp where the performance of the car was limited due to low engine power (except for the cases where the engine was not running at all...).

[Claude Rouelle]

I have never seen an Indian team at comp where the performance of the car was limited due to low engine power (except for the cases where the engine was not running at all...).

BINGO!

[Jay Lawrence]

Nathan,

I'm aware it's a commuter bike engine but it's still a KTM and it's still new and unproven (both in FSAE and the bike world as far as I can see).

ftorque,

Apologies, didn't realise it was as readily available as you say. Still, have you sourced parts or tuning knowledge for this engine? If the KTM 200 has been in the Indian market for years and has plenty known about it, why don't you use that? As Tobias says, you guys aren't limited by power (in fact, the only Indian team I have seen attempt enduro (at FSAE-A, with an Enfield I think) had a driver who'd never driven a car before...).

[Bemo]

Originally posted by TMichaels:
Just adding another point to the discussion;
I have never seen an Indian team at comp where the performance of the car was limited due to low engine power (except for the cases where the engine was not running at all...).

That's what I'm talking about. Peak power may be on that list, but there should be quite some points with higher priority.

@ftorque: You're on the right track here in my opinion. Availabilty (also of spare parts) is definitely an issue.
Back when our team was founded, one important reason for the team to use the Honda CBR was that it is quite easily available here in Germany and a friend of someone from the team was working for a company which was tuning this engine for racing purpose. So there was someone who could tell the team the strengths and weaknesses and what you can easily modify without ruining the engine.
Nowadays the key issue is that after years of using the same enginge, the team itself has a lot of experience with it and gathered a lot of data over the years. It may sound boring, but stuff like that can be much more important than the theoretical performance potential of an engine.

[JWard]

I agree with Bemo's point, local knowledge is such a huge bonus point, no design judge could refute that someone willing to donate time / experience with a specific engine to the team is another pro for choosing that specific engine.

Also regarding shying away from 'low powered' singles (compared to peak power 4's), the low end torque of a single is a massive plus point on corner exit. (at least in my eyes, considering the skill level of the average FSAE event driver - amateur, low seat time etc). Anyone else agree?

[Big Bird]

I am trying not to be drawn into these arguments, but I can't help myself.

Tobi, that was really nicely put. I'd be overjoyed to see a reasoned discussion from a team on this thread about the factors that are limiting their progress, and how they are addressing them.

If you are looking at professional marathon runners on the start line of the New York marathon, the factors that might affect which one gets to the finish line first could be the proportion of carbs and proteins in their diet, the ramp up and ramp down of their training regime in the preceding weeks, the distribution of shock absorbing gel in their runners, etc.

When you are looking at two babies playing on the lounge-room floor, the factors that might effect which one gets to the toy box first might be whether junior can balance on their own two feet yet, whether they have filled their nappy or had their bottle or whether there is a kitten in the room.

When I see arguments on this thread about relative merits of Hondas and KTMs and weight distribution and torque outputs and the like, I can't help picturing babies in Nikes on the start line of the New York Marathon. Their dads are arguing about the relative merits of Nikes vs ASICS, or about the best pacing strategies over 42km for the prevailing weather conditions. Meanwhile at the start line one kid is licking beetles, another is crying for his mum and the third one has crawled off chasing a puppy.

Don't get ahead of yourself. Know where you are at, and design your project accordingly. Learn to walk before you try to run.

If I was starting out and I was in India, my engine of choice would be the simplest one I could find. Locally made. Air cooled. Single. I'd even go carbureted. I may be walking at a slow pace. But I'd be way ahead of all those squawking kids in lycra playing on the starting line...

[happypranav]

Big Bird,


Don't get ahead of yourself. Know where you are at, and design your project accordingly. Learn to walk before you try to run.

That is what our new team is focusing on, we want to manufacture a simple, well organised, and properly engineered fsae car.

[Big Bird]

That is good to hear Pranav. Keep reminding yourselves of those principles, from beginning to end. Good luck!

[mech5496]

Would love to see that car!

[Claude Rouelle]

To mech5496,

Harry,

Nothing to do with the topic but I had to mention this.

When I go to http://lms.mech.upatras.gr/Formula/index.html how can I know (or anybody who doesn't know you or doesn't know your university) what UoP means? In which country is "UoP"? I know where Patras is because I lived in Europe but do you think students from India, Russia, China USA should "automatically" know that?

Most of the teams do not think about the importance of identify themselves properly in a global market.

I am fine with "Beaver team" and "Lions team" and "Elephant team" but there should be also on your documents and your pit on circuits some basic description of you university and your country. Suggestion: some basic graphic with the name of your university, the city and the country, with the map of the world or your continent, contour of your country and red spot of your city.

My 0.02 $ marketing advice

PS: Pretty impressive list of articles published on your team. Smart to put these links on your website!

[mech5496]

Mr Rouelle,

thanks for your kind advice, guess I have never thought it that way, neither did any of our team members; definitely something worth implementing on the website! Thank you!

[happypranav]

Hi,

I want to know how do we calculate natural frequency of an fsae car chassis?. Does it play an important role in dynamics of car?. I have some information that FEA softwares give us natural frequency. But how to calculate it by hand calculations?

[Bemo]

Don't take this the wrong way Pranav, but here you are giving a perfect example of asking questions in the wrong order.

Your first question is how to calculate something and afterwards your asking if it is important to know the figure you want to calculate.

Why are you even considering that calculation if you're unsure if the result is of any importance.

What do you want first of all? You want your car going fast. Therefore you start working on the vehicle dynamics. If you come to the conclusion, you need to know the frequency you are talking about, for getting a proper result, THEN you should start to ask yourself how you can calculate it.

[happypranav]

Bemo,

I will always respect guidance from you, so I wont mind it at all. As you explained that I should consider natural frequency when I am at the conclusion to know it, but how could I know that I need to check for natural frequency, because I don't know how it affects and basically what is it. I just went through some papers and found comments on natural frequency. So could you at least explain me what does natural frequency means when we consider a chassis.

[Bemo]

First of all the question is, what your understanding of "chassis" is. Are you talking about the frame without suspension? If so, the main thing to worry about (in terms of vehicle dynamics) is the stiffness of it. The reason is pretty simple: You don't want the suspension pick up points to move relative to each other, as this makes all your calculations on supension kinematics obsolete.

If you are talking about the whole system frame-suspension, of course the eigen frequency of your suspension is a very important figure.

As I'm not a suspension guy, I can't tell you very much more about that, but in general there is quite a lot of very good literature available about suspension and chassis design.

[happypranav]

Bemo,

Thanks, that will surely help me.
Is eigen frequency (own frequency) same as natural frequency ?

[Bemo]

As far as I know this is the case. But I'm not a native English speaker so I'm not quite sure on this. For mechanical stuff eigenfrequency is the more common word I think.

PS: The eigenfrequency is named after Prof. Eigen, who was one of the first to do research on this kind of stuff. It's just coincidence that the German word "eigen" means "own" in English http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[happypranav]

TMichaels,

Enzo Ferrari was once said "Horsepower sells cars, torque wins races".
I always try to figure out what is important to a Formula SAE car is it torque or horsepower.
Would you please elaborate or explain how should I interpret Enzo's statement with respect to Formula SAE car.

[MCoach]

Originally posted by happypranav:
TMichaels,

Enzo Ferrari was once said "Horsepower sells cars, torque wins races".
I always try to figure out what is important to a Formula SAE car is it torque or horsepower.
Would you please elaborate or explain how should I interpret Enzo's statement with respect to Formula SAE car.

What I believe this refers to is the range of power/torque. Power is directly related to torque, but that's aside the point. Customers care about a car that makes 602 horsepower because it becomes a bragging point for them. Even if that 602 hp is at a very unusable point like 1,000 rpm, or 9,000 rpm but the car makes only 200 hp at 8,800 rpm. They enjoy that sort of thing.

Torque is usually talked about in how flat or broad a curve is. A high specific value for torque that is very flat makes for a controllable car, a linear power curve, and gearing that doesn't need to focus on a very small power peak. Formula 1 cars peak very high and so need the 7 gears they use (and why they are moving to 8 speed gearboxes next year).

So, ways to interpret it...
You can build a car a customer likes with high horsepower and a pedal that is used for getting the car sideways and create lots of smoke, or you can build a car customers also like; a car that is very balanced, fast, and wins races.

[Bemo]

Enzo Ferrari also said that "aerodynamics is for people who don't know how to build engines." http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[happypranav]

MCoach,

If engine is made of lower cc, what will be affected more hp or torque (because engine displacement should not always be used to compare engines but their torque and horsepower ratings will be a much better way to compare). And what design factors in Engine affect torque and hp.

I have info that inline engines provide less torque than V engines irrespective of displacement, is it right, if yes what affects high torque.

What I know is higher rpm will give more hp and torque, and if this is the case engine design will be based on running it to high rpm.

[happypranav]

Originally posted by Bemo:
Enzo Ferrari also said that "aerodynamics is for people who don't know how to build engines." http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Well that is very very sensible ! http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Bemo]

I get the feeling, you are mixing up some things. In general power is torque multiplied with rpm. So if you assume constant torque power is linear increasing with higher rpm.

If you have an naturally aspired engine, increasing torque very soon means increasing displacement which means the engine gets bigger and heavier. That's why racing engines are usually running at very high speeds.

[JWard]

Bemo, is it also worth making a couple of notes about efficiency at this point? High revving engines are not so efficient as they have less time for the increase in pressure in the cylinder (due to the 'burn' event) has less time to act on the cylinder - because a cycle of the engine is happening over less time (hence low revs often means efficient torque). Also, high revving engines have higher friction losses. So do multiple cylinders for the same displacement (4 cylinders total 600cc has greater surface area the piston moves over than a single cylinder of 600cc).

Please correct me if / where I'm wrong. It's also not very eloquently put - apologies if it reads poorly)

[Bemo]

First of all, I used to be a frame guy in our team, so I'm far from being an engine expert.
But the basic things I know http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Of course high reving doesn't help with efficiency. That's one of life's compromises. That's why you want high torque at low engine speeds in a series like FSAE.

[Claude Rouelle]

To Happypranav


Don't take this the wrong way Pranav, but here you are giving a perfect example of asking questions in the wrong order.

The quote from Bemo could not be more right. That is exactly the issue that you and many other news teams have. They try to copy other cars. The question on pullrod which was posted on the forum today has the same taste. News team students often open the LEGO box (which in that case in the picture of other cars on the internet) and choose and assemble on CAD and/or in the shop components which could make the car work but they probably won't know why. Remember that the goal of FSAE / FS is not only to make a car which runs but a car which is competitive AND UNDERSTAND WHY

Functions creates Forms. Making the list of the questions of what determines a good car requires discipline, honesty and freedom of mind and also the time and courage to assemble and integrate good education material.

That is why designing and building a FSAE / FS car in India is a bigger challenge than in any other country I know. Indian students has been taught for years to regurgitate at exams what teachers told them. Teachers rarely challenge students outside the teaching material and students are rarely allowed to ask questions. And at the end of the school the automotive industry hire students on grades, not on skills.

Abstractive (if that word exists) thinking (In that case what are the goals to achieve and what are the criteria which define a good car and a good team) is a challenge that you have to impose to your self before even thinking about designing, manufacture and assemble a car.

I have made similar statements with different words and I will continue to do so because my experience is that it takes a lot of time to integrate such messages/. I know: it is only several years after I graduated that some of my teachers advice started to make sense. We never stop learning and we never learn well fast enough ....

“Human beings, who are almost unique (among animals) in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so” Douglas Adams

[happypranav]

And at the end of the school the automotive industry hire students on grades, not on skills.

Every Automotive Industry hiring students in India must understand this.
Claude, (I don't know if I am asking correct question or not but I cannot stop myself) What can we do to change this mindset of industries ?

[RenM]

Regarding the engine questions i think its much more demonstrative to look at the formulas.

Derived from the first law of thermodynamics an engines Power can be calculated as:

P=k*n*H_G*V_d*VE*eta_e

with

k= factor for 2/4 stroke engines (4 stroke: k=0.5 as only every second rev is used to generate power)
n= engine revolutions
H_G= Heating value of the gas mixture (influences by your Air to Fuel Ratio and Fuel)
V_d= Engine Displacement
VE = Volumetric Efficiency - a measurement of how effective your gas exchange works (at VE=1 the cylinder is filled with the engine displacement at ambient density)
eta_e = the effective efficiency of the engine, consists of internal efficiency + mechanical efficiency

Now you can play around with the formula and see the effects.
If you half your engine displacement, your engine has to ref twice as fast to get the same power as your torque is decreased. (P=M*n) Of course different engine layout result in different efficiencies but especially in fsae with the air restrictor they almost level each other out. Cars with 1 Cylinder engines are usually more efficient then cars with a 4 Cylinder engine because of their much lower weight.

Now you can also see that talking about Torque as an absolute number can be very misleading as it doesn't allow a direct comparison between 2 engines. Torque can always be transformed by a gearbox, whereas the power stays constant (not regarding losses in the gearbox).


Whats important for FSAE as MCoach pointed out already is that you will want high power over a broad usable rev range.
If you can achieve that the driver doesn't have to care too much about the gear he is using to get a good acceleration.

[Claude Rouelle]

To HappyPranav


Claude, (I don't know if I am asking correct question or not but I cannot stop myself) What can we do to change this mindset of industries ?

The pessimistic (realistic?) answer.
Nothing. It will take another 2 to 3 generations or something worse: a war, a civil war a major economic crisis - if that happens we will all be somewhat shaken whatever the country we live in because everything is global nowadays, a revolution (social and or cultural).
If you have the chance get out of there and like many other Indians I know get out of India and study abroad. If you do so you will probably do like 90 & of them; you won't want to get back.

The optimistic answer
- You are already helping. Just speaking about that in this forum helps.
- Speak about this with other people; rich and poor, old and young.
- Vote. I hate politics. but everything is politic. Democracy is maybe not the best form of society which could exist but it is the best one that humans have been able to create. Vote. Make your voice heard . Vote for people who fight corruption, fight for equal gender rights, access to education and health but also push citizens to acquire the sense for responsibility and ethics. Many people want rights but forget about the notion of duties.
- Travel. Open your mind and your eyes. I always have thought that if more young people like your would travel there would be less wars. It is not about accepting other ideas but it is about accepting that other cultures have different ideas.
- Stay away from negative people. In universities try to get closer to positive teachers who look at their job as a mission to improve the world. I met a few of them in IIT universities and I was VERY impressed not only by their knowledge but by their drive to improve the well being of their fellow citizens. If necessary relocate and go to an other university.
- Be demanding to your teachers as much as you feel you are demanding to yourself. Teachers are paid because they have school that are populated by students like you. You are their customer. They owe you. You are entitled to a good education. As so are your parents you have invested in you. There is nothing wrong by asking a teacher "I did not get it, this is what I don't understand, can you please explain better or a different way?"
- Believe in your self. Believe in your self more than in anybody else. And never, ever give up your dreams and your ideals.

I wish I had a miracle answer but India is a huge country with a lot of inertia and complexity (and fascinating mysteries) so I guess the road to improvement is a long road you have to walk one step at a time.

[happypranav]

Now you can also see that talking about Torque as an absolute number can be very misleading as it doesn't allow a direct comparison between 2 engines. Torque can always be transformed by a gearbox, whereas the power stays constant (not regarding losses in the gearbox).

What I think is torque is reported at the engine and not at the wheels, so the gearbox is irrelevant to the reported value. Sure, you can always lower the gear ratio to increase the torque at the wheels, but if you redline at 1.5mph, you haven't helped yourself any unless your goal is to power the car. Please do correct if I am wrong.

[RenM]

Originally posted by happypranav:
What I think is torque is reported at the engine and not at the wheels, so the gearbox is irrelevant to the reported value. Sure, you can always lower the gear ratio to increase the torque at the wheels, but if you redline at 1.5mph, you haven't helped yourself any unless your goal is to power the car. Please do correct if I am wrong.

You have partly argued the right way, but came to the wrong conclusion.

What interests you is the torque at the wheels. Torque at the wheels accelerates your car and the traction of your wheel limits how much torque your wheels can transfer. The amount of torque the engine has is almost irrelevant as it can be transformed. Power stays constant in a gearbox and is therefore a more feasible way of comparison. In your example you forgot, that in order to have the same engine power, your engine speed has to be doubled if the displacement and torque is halfed. So even if you have to half the gear ratio, you will end up at the same wheel speed and the same torque.

P_engine=P_wheel=M_wheel*n_wheel
As long as the engine power is high enough it virtually doesnt matter how much torque in absolute numbers it generates, its only a matter of gear ratios. There simply is no difference if M_engine is big or n_engine. This also tells you, that at lower speeds you are limited by the transferable Power of your wheel (as n_wheel is small) and at higher speeds your engine power is the limiting factor.

An engines torque is usually seen as a way to describe the power distribution over the engines rev range. An engine with high torque is more likely to have a broader usable rev range than an engine with peak power. However it is not quality indicator for this. To evaluate the usable rev range its much more feasible to look at the rev range the engines develops 90% of its peak torque. The bigger the rev range is, the easier it is to drive the car.

[happypranav]

Power stays constant in a gearbox and is therefore a more feasible way of comparison.

Can losses in transmission cause reduction in torque and power transmitted. Losses meaning both frictional as well as inertial losses due to rotating parts in gear box.

[Big Bird]

Hi Pranav,

Now there is a good exercise for you. Prepare a spreadsheet estimating the relative inertias of rotating components in your driveline. Wheels. Axles. Sprockets. Diff. Gearbox. If you don't have exact values for each, then estimate by approximating them as cylinders, rings, etc.

Now vary the inertias of individual components by say, 10%, and compare their overall effect on inertia of the entire system. Which ones are significant? Which ones are insignificant?

I can assure you, this exercise successfully completed will prove to all that you can think like an engineer. The theory can be found in a basic level dynamics text, first / second year stuff. Consult your friends, and report back to us. The challenge is to complete the exercise WITHOUT asking the forum how to do it.

Ready...

Set...

Go!

[ftorque]

Power and Torque. Hmm...
Even going through a Torque and Power curve from the 'n' number of books on i.c.engines can clarify the doubt. Just see where the torque comes in, and when does power.
Actually engine produces torque.
Power is a derived quantity. P is 2 pie N T by 60.
Why ask such question on this forum? It will soon become the Facebook page of Supra where Pat is having a great time.
Going through the entire thread would clear the major doubts and prevent Claude from re-posting posts.
Geoff don't give exercises out. None of the guys will do it. And why should they. Hardly does any of the Indian teams concentrate on the engine aspect. They go to tuners who tune the ecu for them. These guys are already ready to get their hands on the KTM 390 which got a waiting period of 2 months now. I can PM you their contacts if you want. Its just the word "tuned ECU" that attracts them. The cool stuff. It is evident when you see them searching for wires at the event when the engine stops. Posting words from great car manufacturers doesn't make you a knowledgeable guy.
Pranav you may just end up making simple things complicated.

[happypranav]

To Geoff,


The challenge is to complete the exercise WITHOUT asking the forum how to do it.

I like that, we in India are spoon feeded with every thing.

Will surely follow your exercise and revert back to you soon.

Thank you

[Big Bird]

Thanks Pranav, I look forward to your response.

I've got to give you ten out of ten for your tenacity too, you seem very eager to learn. Many would have shied away from us given the questions that are being fired at you.

Cheers,

Geoff

[RenM]

Originally posted by happypranav:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Power stays constant in a gearbox and is therefore a more feasible way of comparison.

Can losses in transmission cause reduction in torque and power transmitted. Losses meaning both frictional as well as inertial losses due to rotating parts in gear box. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

of course there are frictional losses involved if you are using a gearbox. But when you are trying to understand a process its often useful to look at it at an idealized way without friction losses to not make things too complicated.

[ftorque]

Just out of context maybe.
But a sincere request to all Indian and FSAE teams to use proper safety measures while manufacturing and especially testing of the vehicles.
I have seen the Indian teams testing, and the lack of go-kart tracks in near-by vicinity make the teams vulnerable by using their college campuses., etc which are filled with obstacles and most drivers here prefer driving without safety gear with just a helmet and no fire safety measures in place. There is a very good Pat's Corner on this.

Another sad day in motorsports. Reminds us that motorsports is still very dangerous.
RIP Andrea Antonelli. World Supersport race.

[Z]

Originally posted by happypranav:
... what is important to a Formula SAE car is it torque or horsepower.
Pranav,

Power and torque of engines has been covered extensively on this Forum. Here are two recent threads (both long, but both well worth reading).

"Any way to objectively choose engine?" (http://fsae.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/125607348/m/824105905/p/1)

"Fantasy engine." (http://fsae.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/125607348/m/67020597151/p/1)

Summarising the above threads, the most important engine parameters are (IMO, in order of importance)...

1. Reliability (it must start whenever you want, and only stop when you want).
2. Fittability (it must be the right shape to fit your particular car concept).
3. Availability (it must be at the right price, and right in front of you).
4. Driveability (it must allow good modulation of thrust. Ie. it must have a smooth throttle (NO STICKING!!!), and either a wide and flat torque band, or a good IVT/CVT.)

Z

[Claude Rouelle]

F1 is out of India after just 2 years .

Irreconcilable differences?

[Will M]

No.

They just want to move from fall 2014 to spring 2015.

"Both Bernie and Jaypee want Formula One to continue in India. If they do find a date then the 2014 – instead of running in October, November – will be postponed by four months to run the next year. And since their contract is for five years, they will run 2015 and 2016."

http://www.theguardian.com/spo...14-indian-grand-prix (http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/jul/29/f1-2014-indian-grand-prix)

-William

[Boffin]

Not quite. This is the story I've herd:

"According to sources, India is extremely shaky due to the country's extremely stringent tax regime, which penalises teams, drivers and, crucially FOM – the last-named priding itself on its (almost) zero-sum tax structure in the United Kingdom – on all earnings accrued in the country"

That was from autosport on "Formula 1's 2014 calendar minefield"
Which full version can be read here http://bbs.hupu.com/6052766.html

And also this of another autosport article, which seams to echo the issues that indian teams have with importing parts to the country.

"The event made its debut in 2011, but teams have been constantly concerned about taxation issues when entering the country.
India's government has not granted a custom exemption to the teams as it does not consider F1 to be a sport"

[ftorque]

I was wondering why no post on this issue. Finally... and who better than Claude to start it...
Like stated by Will M and Boffin the race will happen.
If not next year then in March 2015. Its a 5 year contract.

Its because Bernie has to keep F1 alive. Hence he needs the sport to keep on expanding from the traditional catchment area of Europe and America which is essential for the financial health of F1 given the economic woes plaguing these regions.. hence the huge discount for the German GP, Ecclestone helping American GP organizers pay-off debts., etc.

Also the New Jersey street circuit, Russian Grand Prix and the Red Bull Ring in Austria all want to hold a GP next year. This expands the calendar to 22-23 races which will put a strain on small budget teams like Marussia.
Hence Bernie used the word "Political". It was alluding to the pressures arising out of expanding the calendar. He was not talking about politics in India.
The Indian GP is similar too, i think the UK and Japanese GP, in terms they are not backed by the government. But the later 2 are heritage classic races. So, why the word "Irreconcilable differences?". Its not a cancellation only a probable shift. The F1 circus will come to India 3 more times. It's one of the fastest circuit on the calendar.

And the similar condition's are prevailing over the 2014 South Korean GP. Due to the cluster of Asian GP after the Australian one.
What remains to be seen is whether the contract will be renewed for the Indian GP?

[ftorque]

OK.
Now its official.
No Indian GP in 2014.
It will be held in early 2015 clubbed alongwith the Australian, Bahrain, Malaysia and Chinese GP.

[happypranav]

Originally posted by Big Bird:
Hi Pranav,

Now there is a good exercise for you. Prepare a spreadsheet estimating the relative inertias of rotating components in your driveline. Wheels. Axles. Sprockets. Diff. Gearbox. If you don't have exact values for each, then estimate by approximating them as cylinders, rings, etc.

Now vary the inertias of individual components by say, 10%, and compare their overall effect on inertia of the entire system. Which ones are significant? Which ones are insignificant?

I can assure you, this exercise successfully completed will prove to all that you can think like an engineer. The theory can be found in a basic level dynamics text, first / second year stuff. Consult your friends, and report back to us. The challenge is to complete the exercise WITHOUT asking the forum how to do it.

Ready...

Set...

Go!

Thanks Big Bird,

After going through different equations and figures I have determined relative inertia's of all components in drive line, what I understood is inertial losses in gear box are not predominant, in fact there are inertial losses in differential, half shaft, wheels etc which are more than those in gearbox.
Also inertial losses cannot be reduced below a particular extent and hence they have to be neglected when we consider torque and power transmission.

Please evaluate my study.
Thank you

[Paul Achard]

Pranav,

You might want to take a second look at your figures. According to what I've seen, the largest contributors to rotational inertia are by far the tires, rims & spindles. I believe the engine internals actually follow (assuming your diff weighs less than 10 lbs). Diff and sprocket come next, tripods after that and driveshafts are dead last.

Hint: Equivalent mass (rotational inertia converted to an equivalent linear inertia) is proportional to (reduction ratio)^2 with respect to the wheel.

Hope this helps!

[ftorque]

What a 2013 season it has been for
Teams From India.
FSAE Lincoln
FS UK
FS Germany

Not a single team completing the full event anywhere.

Any comments by people actually present there, who can elaborate more on this as to why?

[JulianH]

According to a tweet of TUFast Munich, Formula Manipal finished the Endurance of FS Czech today.

And three Indian teams beat us in the German AutoCross http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[MCoach]

Originally posted by Paul Achard:
Pranav,

You might want to take a second look at your figures. According to what I've seen, the largest contributors to rotational inertia are by far the tires, rims & spindles. I believe the engine internals actually follow (assuming your diff weighs less than 10 lbs). Diff and sprocket come next, tripods after that and driveshafts are dead last.

Hint: Equivalent mass (rotational inertia converted to an equivalent linear inertia) is proportional to (reduction ratio)^2 with respect to the wheel.

Hope this helps!


Shooting from the hip, I would put things in this order for rotational inertia:

Tires
Wheels
Differential
Hubs
Piston and Crank
Internal gears
Driveshafts

[Aakhi]

Hey ftorque,

Formula Manipal competed at FSG and FSCzech this year.
At FSG, we couldnt complete endurance as there was smoke coming from the battery when the second driver was cranking during the driver change.It was due to melted battery terminal.All the other events were completed and we also won the 2nd award for cost.We placed overall 51st at FSG. The link to the results:
https://www.formulastudent.de/uploads/media/FSC13_Scoring_total_all_01.pdf
At FSCzech , we completed all the dynamic events without any troubles. We were on the slower end during endurance as we had faced fuel economy issues during testing.We placed 9th overall out of 16 teams.The link to the results:
http://fsczech.cz/team/resources/Results/FSCzech-Overall.pdf

[Claude Rouelle]

To the guys from India.

Unless you already have noticed... "from the fitting of rims into the tyres" and another similar thread examples...

Until, as mentioned, " you put your brain in gear" before asking.... the mocking answers will be at the level of most of your questions.

Please use a minimum of critical thinking.

This is an exchange forum. What do you bring to the table beside your "plz help urgent I need U to tell me now". Where is the intellectual curiosity and the challenge that will entice other forum users to answer you?

[vasu goenka]

hello guys,

I am a B.tech student from IIT Rajasthan and we guys are aspiring for FS-UK for the first time. One of the main issue we are facing out is to get an idea of the budget!
we are in a process where we need to show the budget estimation to our potential sponsors and since most of the sources are providing the budget details in $, it is hard to recognize the actual costs of different parts.
it would be kind enough if anyone could help us in provinding the budget estimation in Indian currency

Thank You:)

[Pradeep]

@vasu,

Please specify which part you are not able to find the cost of ? or is it for the logistics ? If you mention the name of the imported part that you are planning to buy, then someone who has bought it earlier can help you out.

Your question is a quite vague right now for anyone to help you.

[happypranav]

hello guys,

I am a B.tech student from IIT Rajasthan and we guys are aspiring for FS-UK for the first time. One of the main issue we are facing out is to get an idea of the budget!
we are in a process where we need to show the budget estimation to our potential sponsors and since most of the sources are providing the budget details in $, it is hard to recognize the actual costs of different parts.
it would be kind enough if anyone could help us in provinding the budget estimation in Indian currency

Thank You:)

For an average car made in your own workshop, you need at least INR 14,00,000. Distributed as INR 10,00,000 for manufacturing car and INR 4,00,000 logistics to uk.

[Claude Rouelle]

Once again...

Once again we have a post which is in "the give me the solution" style.

What about a post like "This is the description of our first estimate ofr a budget and you describes the different aspects of expenses: parts buying, manufacturing, shipping etc...." than ask what the readers of this forum what they think is sensible or not for each of the lines.

If somebody tells you that you need a budget of 5 K$ or 20 K$ or 100 K$ then what....? How is that money spent?

Also this is an international forum; only a few people know what a lakh is.

What I can tell you about your budget estimation is that there is a lakh of critical thinking

[Pradeep]

@happypranav: How can you can say that Rs.10 lakhs is enough for the car? It depends on which components are being bought - engine, differential, dampers etc. A car with RE engine and Indian components can be made easily within 10 lakhs. Whereas if you choose more imported components - the cost will increase to MUCH more than 10 lakhs.


One thing is for sure, only buying 'imported' components will not make you car go any faster.

I agree that transport to UK is around Rs.4 lakhs.

Few important thing that many Indian teams forget to include in the budget are:
1) Camping equipment- camping tents, big team tents, chairs, tables, lights etc.
2) Stuff for the pits - banners , flooring, etc.
3) Testing cost - tires, fuel, engine oil

Anyway, money is never enough...

[happypranav]

Pradeep

That is why I said average car for first year team. As you know question asked was very vague.
Yes, what you concluded is very right.

[Big Bird]

I worry about statements like the above. I've worked with low budgets before, but resisted the urge to think like that. Under $5k? That is a problem. Under $10k - difficult, but less of a problem. Over $10k, you have enough money to build something that works - anything higher spec is your decision and your responsibility

As a manager you must look at the above in two ways:
1. We don't have much money - how do we get more?
2. We don't have much money - what can we achieve with the money we have?

In between these two principles is a happy medium where you plan a project that is achievable, but which can be supplemented with more funds as they become available.

Obsession with getting more money leads to a design ethic of wishful thinking and overcommitment. Design a project that is within your resources first, and build from there.

[Sachin]

Where can we purchase the master switches in india...?? I have tried finding but couldnt find any reliable source.
Would be glad if someone could provide some info :)

thanks

[jlangholzj]

maybe we need to have a question "form" here...as follows:

Hi my name is _______ and I am a __ year student at __________ university.

I've been working on ________ and its application to _________.

When trying to find ________ I ran into a problem with ________.

I also looked at these resources:
a)___________
b)___________
...(etc)

from which I was able to find ___________. [OR] from which i could not find any more information on _______ but I did find _____.

[may also need]

My problem that I'm running into is ______.

Do you guys have any other suggestions for ____________?

Example:

Hi my name is __Sachin_____ and I am a _2nd_ year student at ____India___ university.

I've been working on __finding a kill switch______ and its application to __the required rule_______.

When trying to find ____the kill switch____ I ran into a problem with ___availability in india_____.

I also looked at these resources:
a)___jegs________
b)___summit racing________
c) local parts stores
d) McMaster Carr
e) ebay
f) other teams
from which I was able to find __several options that I like __. [OR] from which i could not find any more information on _______ but I did find _____.

[may also need]

My problem that I'm running into is ___the shipping costs are outrageous or most companies do not ship to india____.

Do you guys have any other suggestions for __places to buy a kill switch or other electrical supplies_______?


This helps show that you've actually looked at a few options and have put thought into the question at hand. Also helps when we're giving solutions not to give things you've already tried.