wheels/rims please help

[Jeniffer]

I was wondering...
Is everybody buying rims from keizer?
Is it possible to make them by yourself?
Will magnesiums from a street car do?
Thanks

[Jeniffer]

I was wondering...
Is everybody buying rims from keizer?
Is it possible to make them by yourself?
Will magnesiums from a street car do?
Thanks

[jdstuff]

We've used Keizer in the past....

Recently we've had EXCELLENT results with Jongbloed. They're Al outers with magnesium centers.

Check them out: http://www.jongbloedracing.com/jong_formula.html

[bigfella]

We make our own centres by casting magnesium and roll outers from Al.
It's pretty easy if you know a good casting company (duh!)

[Tony K]

We used Keizers for a while but, like most people I've talked to, got sick of the flexibility in the center section. Last year we found an excellent set of BBS wheels Wheel Pic (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~akrezel/tech_3.jpg) that worked very well. However, the cost is a bit high, $589 each when we bought them.

[RickyRacer]

$589? I thought some one posted recently that they were available for approx. $250 a piece, but I could be wrong.
Ricky

[Tony K]

I think we bought them for $250 each as well, but list price is still $589 each so the cost sheet takes a bit of a hit for the full set.

[NovaCat2005]

Our team got them for $200... It helps to have a retailer of BBS wheels on the team http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[DanO]

we have used Keizer for a few years now but dont like them a whole lot.


I would say go with Kodiak or Jongbloed, those seem to be the best for fsae right now.

[fsae racer]

The grass is always greener on the other side.... I dont know anything about jongbloed, but I hate our Kodiaks with a passion, not to mention the fact that the guy that sold them to us three years ago totally screwed us over. From our experience, Kodiaks flex more than what I would consider to be tolerable. I have heard good things about jongbloed and they certainly make beautiful wheels, but that 50 cents might get you a bag of peanuts.

[Dave M]

are you sure you dont mean keizer? our kodiacs are far better than our old keizers.

[fsae racer]

never had keizers and from everything i've heard, probably never will. However, I am certainly not a fan of our Kodiaks either.

[prowrench]

Good day FSAE Teams,
To clear up some questions. We manufacture magnesium centered racing wheels with forged 6061 T-6 rim halves. We can do any offset and dimension. For FSAE competition we recomend our JRW 313 or 304. Weight on an 13 x 7 313 is approx 6.5 pounds and on a 13 x 7 304 is approx 7 pounds. Special pricing for FSAE teams is 1350 per set. Del time is approx 3 to 4 weeks. I hope this is of help in answering some of the basic questions regarding FSAE wheels you guys and gals might have. We have downloadable tech charts to assist in determining offsets on the website. We at Jongbloed Racing know the value of the FSAE programs and fully support FSAE in its competitive venue to showcase the best new engineering talents out there today...and tomorrow
Regards,
Bill Baker
President
Jongbloed Racing Inc
www.jongbloedracing.com (http://www.jongbloedracing.com)

[rjwoods77]

Can someone enlighten me as to why they would think kiezers suck? The only thing I can figure that people dont like about them is the centers gouging under load but the only pics i have seen of that are cars the have small bolt circles. Small bolt circles are hell on centers like the lightweight ones that keizer comes with stock so that seems to be an engineers goof not to make big bolt circle and not the rim manufacturer(Obviously could be wrong on this). My buddy uses them on his 600cc sprint car with 130 hp that approaches 100mph sideways on the corners in a 1/4 mile track and as far as the wheel halves go there has never been a problem. He uses a splined center that "has a big bolt circle of 6" " and has never had a problem. So what's the deal? I know a bunch of people who use them for auto-x and mini baja and I have never heard anything from these folks but good things. They are also light as hell. Without a center, our 10x5 weigh 3.6lbs. With a splined center they weigh 5lbs.

That kinda brings up another point. I dont know if some of you realize but 10" rim tires are 2lbs lighter per tire (20x6-13 vs. 18x6-10, says Jeff Speer from Hoosier) combined with 1.5 lbs per rim (13x7-13 Jongbloed vs 10x6-10, the .5lbs off covers the width difference but the 10x6-10 kiezer with splined center can be arranged to 6.25" just for reference) and you can save 10lbs (low ball) to 14lbs(high bal) by switching to 10" rims. Thats alot of rotating and static weight to loose. RMIT runs them and seem to do just as well as anyone else so...

To each his own obviously but I sometimes wonder why some people are so critical of equipment that others use without problem. Anytime that happens to me I blame myself, not the equipment.

[Sam]

kiesers... man where do i start... http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

random, thats a good place. a short summary of our love affair with keizer..

1. offset was incorrect. easily fixed, centers machined to suit
2.the center boss and stud circle were not concentric to the rim bolts, machined to suit.
3. centers cracking around stud holes, hold breath.
4. actual rims undersized.. found this out when we got some wheels changed by Russell stuckey in melblourne (absolute champ.. plug plug) he had these wicked rim guages and some of the rim halves were found to be undersized.

thats our keiser "experience" so be wary... http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Frank]

everything Sam says is true, but i'd like to add that i think the centre design is a good design (we machined too much off, in an attempt to get heaps of offset)

Try some back to back fea studies. Keizer Vs against your own centre design, and see what you come up with...

wheel centers like keizers are a piece of piss to CNC with 3 axis control only, but the stock can be expensive if you pay retail rates.

I'd love to know exactly how these carbon halves are being made

Frank
UQ's pissed uncle

ps.. advice to people... crack test your wheels PROPERLY and regularly

[jack]

just make your own centers...and its free! http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v318/phatcat0227/WheelCenter.jpg

[Dominic Venieri]

FSAE teams can purchase wheels directly from BBS for $200 for the 3 piece wheels shown higher up this thread. We've been running them since '02.

[BStoney]

With Respect to Keizers.....

We've used them for countless years, however, we design and machine our own center to be bolted up to the Keizer halves. We seem to have pretty good success going this route. Biggest issue is making sure the halves/center combination is sealed properly and entirely or you'll end up with a flat when you least expect/need it. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

So, I guess don't bad mouth the Keizers too much unless you're specifically talking about their centers, which yes, I've heard they aren't the best design out there.

Good luck in Detroit...

[Gareth]

How do the stiffnesses of the different wheels compare? Has anyone done FEA or physical testing on each of the rims? I'd like to do it myself, but I don't have anything but Keizers around. If anyone is doing FEA out there, how have you contrained/loaded the wheel? How have you dealt with the tire bead? It seems like you'd have to simplify the problem and hope that your assumptions don't favour one design over another.

We've not had big problems with the Keizers. They gave us 2D cad data for their wheels, do the other wheel manufacturers do the same? Before I buy new wheels I need some answers to my stiffness questions.

How much do you think the wheel deflects under load? It would seem that the inner/taller half may be pretty flimsy, but again, without test data it's pretty much speculation. We've been trying to reduce compliance everywhere in our car (except in the drivers - they should be plenty compliant ;-)) and lately there's been talk about wheels and centers. It becomes even more important as we talk about tire testing. The results may be skewed if a flimsy center is used (though probably not greatly). I seem to see fixtures for the instron in my future...

Every problem when looked at in a different light can be made more complicated.

[rjwoods77]

One point to really consider is is all this talk of complance in rim half deflection even worth considering. Lets be honest, our competition is rather entry level to be concerned with things like this when so much more time could be invested in other areas. Just cause formula 1 does it isnt even a remote reason do do it ourselves. I personally am more concerned with cost, availability and customer support than anything else. Keizers are a proven wheel halves are a proven product. Not to say never look at things like compliance but I would say a majority of cars in this competition have many more obvious and glaring enginnering errors that needed to be tended to. Even the very top teams. These cars are autocrossers that drive on shit surfaces. They are not super duper formula cars on perfect formula tracks. Dampner tuning is the big key to the win. How to cope with these shitty surfaces. I know compliance plays a role but it is something that has such a tiny gain that time should be spent other places. SO if you have huge resources then go for it. If you are a lesser team, then just regard it as something not worth the time until resources are present, and move on.

[Gareth]

So apparently you can prove that compliance isn't an issue? I'm not sure if you've noticed, but the top teams have answers to all the questions that the judges ask. If you write it all off as being unimportant you've just condemned yourself to never winning design. My point is that you don't know how important something is until you've actually found some evidence that suggests otherwise.

Sorry, but I find your post ridiculous. Sure dampers are important, but if the system they're acting on has large non-linear components in it (like excessive stiction and compliance) they will be uneffective. Also, you may spend hundreds of hours designing a suspension, but if it deflects so much that your tires fall way off their camber curves then you're in trouble too. I agree we should be attacking the weakest link of a system, but I'm not sure where it is until I've look at them all.

[Garlic]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rob Woods:
One point to really consider is is all this talk of complance in rim half deflection even worth considering. Lets be honest, our competition is rather entry level to be concerned with things like this when so much more time could be invested in other areas. Just cause formula 1 does it isnt even a remote reason do do it ourselves. I personally am more concerned with cost, availability and customer support than anything else. Keizers are a proven wheel halves are a proven product. Not to say never look at things like compliance but I would say a majority of cars in this competition have many more obvious and glaring enginnering errors that needed to be tended to. Even the very top teams. These cars are autocrossers that drive on shit surfaces. They are not super duper formula cars on perfect formula tracks. Dampner tuning is the big key to the win. How to cope with these shitty surfaces. I know compliance plays a role but it is something that has such a tiny gain that time should be spent other places. SO if you have huge resources then go for it. If you are a lesser team, then just regard it as something not worth the time until resources are present, and move on. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Said the guy with ZERO FSAE experience under his belt....

[Charlie]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BStoney:
With Respect to Keizers.....
So, I guess don't bad mouth the Keizers too much unless you're specifically talking about their centers, which yes, I've heard they aren't the best design out there.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I try not to 'bad mouth' any product but will talk about our experience with them. We had terrible problems with the Keizers deflecting... no we did not measure it but when you have plastic deformation or caliper maching bits http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif you know it's happening. Not with the wheel center but the halves.

We went to Welds in 2003 for that reason, and they are a fair bit heavier but much more durable and we don't worry about deflection anymore.

[rjwoods77]

Hey Charlie,
What types of offsets were you running and was it the bell or the nose you found deflecting? I was originally gunna run a 5x1 but I had room do move the offset back by one to a 4x2. I had some concerns about such a big bell so I moved it back some more. How much did you car weigh as well? Just trying to put 2 and 2 together. I am wondering how many factors that we all could cut down to reduce any kind of problems.

Garlic,

Bite it. I worked on baja cars that see 5 times the g loadings on supension that these cars do. Things like hitting trees, cars and coming down in ways the suspension doesnt help with the loadings. Baja guys are all to familiar with rim deflections. These arent the only cars I have ever worked on. I find nothing wrong with what I said and I resent the implication that I dont know what I am talking about because this is my first formula. This series isnt some obscure, special series where the laws of physics and suspension design are different from the rest of the world. Seriously, you should reconsider your "only the formula guys could possibly know" attitude.

[Garlic]

Experience counts. If you are smart enough to know what to do on these cars without ever building, driving, or testing one, then you ought to be a millionare by now.

It's not that people with no experience can't have opinions, but your are often blanket statements with NO data or even calcs to back it up. And with no data, no calcs, no numbers, and no experience, why should anyone listen to you?

You talk alot about how formula guys are aloof or whatever, you brought it up in your berating of Dr. Woods. Yet you are the one who pretends to know better than people with real formula experience.

Formula and Baja are different. The fact that FSAE does not see impact loads and instead stays on the ground means things like compliance are MORE of an issue not less. In Baja strength is more important than compliance. Experience in Baja is great but does not make you an expert on Formula (although you are apparently an expert on everything).

[rjwoods77]

Garlic,
You assume that I have no experience in doing things like this. I whave worked on a number of different " race cars" over time. The cumilative stuff I have picked up from very well educated and experienced that ran these cars provides me basis to talk about stuff to a degree. I never professed to be an expert. Just a realist.

Baja is all about compliance. Compliance of parts from impact and shock loads is what breaks these cars. A baja cars strength is derived from controlling compliance as best you can. There is no such thing as a rigid member in baja. Everything bends like hell with the loads involved. Trying to keep things like joints and pivots from binding, rims flexing and hitting a-arms and brake calipers, trying to keep sprockets and chains from warping, etc. There is alot i have learned from baja that has made my job so much easier in formula.

Again, I never claimed to be an expert. Just a realist who has work on a wide variety of motorsports vehicles. You start to see the connections when you diversify. I am 27 and have been around the block. I am not a pimple faced freshman who is fast and furious.

[Garlic]

I'm a alum and am anonymous because of my job. I'm no pimple-faced freshman for sure. However I will back up my opinions if I state them with facts and information not age and supposed diversification.

Anyway I'm sure if you are as good as you say your team will show it in Detroit this year. That's what it's all about...

[rjwoods77]

Got shut out of registration. Looking to get the car done for as many unofficial races after that. Definitly going to be in a US comp next year. Sucks bad but I have to do what I have to do. And yes, we will see how our car does.

[Rod Woobs]

Dr. Woods & all,

You're an obnoxious idiot but Kiezers aren't as bad as everyone makes them out to be.

You talk a lot of shit for not having built a formula car, not having registered for competition and coming from a team that has not been to comp but once in sevaral years. All you probably have is solid model and some bull shit in your head. How far along are you with your team's car that you can be talking all sorts of shit?

From your statment that diff's suck one could tell that you must be a total nut job, your car's going to have some major handling problems if you intend on using a locked axle. One could also tell you are a nut job from your choice in powerplant....a Brigg's motor, come-on now?

Dr.Woobs

[rjwoods77]

Your right. I suck. I am going to kill myself now. Thanks for hacking my name. We arent designing a car. I gave up because you said I suck. What do I do now?

[Sam]

Yeh yeh.. gotta have a diff man, can't make a car without one... http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

Sam Graham
UQ Racing... SPOOL MONKEYS!!!

[Hoosier Daddy]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sam:
Yeh yeh.. gotta have a diff man, can't make a car without one... http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

Sam Graham
UQ Racing... SPOOL MONKEYS!!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ya..us either...

Carleton FSAE
"Everyone looks at our car and gives us 'The Spool Face'..."

[Gareth]

Jeesh, take it easy. I'd like to steer this topic back to wheels if that's possible. Regardless of Woods' opinions I'm still interested in wheel deflections.

Charlie, can you estimate the deflection you saw? I mean, how far was the caliper from the wheel at zero load? Was the deflection from vertical/lateral/combination loading?

[Daves]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Ya..us either... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Carleton is going with a spool again?

[Amos]

I would also like to steer this forum back toward its topic... Wheels!
We made our own wheels this year (Ah well last year now!). They were spun 3mm 5005 series aluminium for the outer (2 piece) and a machined 6061 "slab" of bar for the centre.
They weighed in at about 4 kg - but could have been lighter due to the spoke design getting a little wider to be on the safe side.

We didn't do a lot of FEA nor physical due to the always evident "we dont have time" factor.
From what i saw, i think they turned out pretty well - we got the offset we wanted, they looked sweet, they weren't too heavy, they didn't leak and they didn't hit the caliper at the front (which was within 3mm of the rim). Just ask Pat or James who both tried to cut fingers off while moving the car!!!

The only unfortunate thing about our rims would have to be the cost. After having to make an extra piece of die for the spinning, and having the centres CNC'd they came to approx AUS$800 a piece!! (Wanna buy a set?!)

BTW, Frank has posted a pic of our car which shows these rims in the Gallery under "uq photos from sae-a" for those interested

[Eddie Martin]

On the topic of wheels, deflection and stiffness can be a big problem. The majority of the standard wheel centres from the wheel manufactures are either too heavy or not stiff enough for formula sae.

The demands of fsae are obviously very different to a competition like mini baja. Fsae has large amounts of sustained lateral g force that can cause the upright and/or wheel to deflect causing problems with camber control and clearance between the wheel and uprights, brakes etc. So making sure the upright and wheel have adequate stiffness and that the system has minimal compliance is a factor that teams should pay attention to. Our 2002 car, in phase 1 spec, had a lot of problems with deflection because our uprights weren't stiff enough and our first set of custom wheel centres were also not stiff enough. This caused a lot of problems with camber control and clearance between the upright and wheel, eg. the upright and wheel were scrapping under high loadings. These problems were solved by stiffer uprights and wheel centres, a better design with no increase in weight.

Compliance is another major issue. Making sure you have an adequate toe base and that slop in bearings is minimal will help control the tyre when the vehicle is cornering. Some teams I have seen can move the wheel a degree or two, statically, purely because compliance has not been taken into account. This must really upset the car dynamically.

If you don't pay careful attention to the stiffness and compliance in the vehicle's unsprung mass components your suspension will not function as it was designed.

One thing people need to remember is to take every single bit of advice you get with a grain of salt, especially when you are a first year team. People will tell you to copy a formula ford, go kart or formula 1. Fsae cars, due to their mass and the type of circuits they run on, are pretty unique. When taking advice think about the source of the information, have they built an fsae car before?, do they have experience in small open wheelers vehicle's? etc. Beware of internet engineering. At the end of the day the decision is yours and if you have done a good amount of research and you follow engineering principles the design should work well.

[Toes]

HI, i would also like to know about modeling wheel centres using FEA. I'm currently in the process of designing new wheel centres for my car trying to reduce the weight by 75% over our current Kiezer wheel centres. If anyone knows a good method and/or programme for modeling them????

[Phillip P]

so how much does the average FSAE rim flex? and how would one go about actually testing it?