non-drysump cars-what are they like?

[Frank]

Queensland uni has had a dry sump since it's first car in 2000. It has always meant oil pressure, regardless of what you do with the car. I feel the system is a little heavy. But I love the reliability, and the lower CG achievable.

I was wondering, for the team's without dry sumps.. how does the oil pressure fare with say ... constant cornering (going in a circle continuously)... can your car do this?

and if your engine is without a dry sump, and runs perfectly, would you mind sharing some technical detail of what you did to achieve this? can u do it with just a good set of baffles?

thanks in advance

Frank

[This message was edited by Frank on March 01, 2004 at 01:19 PM.]

[Frank]

Queensland uni has had a dry sump since it's first car in 2000. It has always meant oil pressure, regardless of what you do with the car. I feel the system is a little heavy. But I love the reliability, and the lower CG achievable.

I was wondering, for the team's without dry sumps.. how does the oil pressure fare with say ... constant cornering (going in a circle continuously)... can your car do this?

and if your engine is without a dry sump, and runs perfectly, would you mind sharing some technical detail of what you did to achieve this? can u do it with just a good set of baffles?

thanks in advance

Frank

[This message was edited by Frank on March 01, 2004 at 01:19 PM.]

[Mi_Ko]

We didn't run a dry sump. Newer had problems with the engine (exept fuel pump and tankhttp://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif).

Our recipe: Don't worry about it. (We had enough other problems to solve)

2002/03 University of MARIBOR - Team Member

[Charlie]

Frank-

Auburn has never run a dry sump, no modifications were made in previous years as far as oil managemant goes, but in 2002 we noticed some oil pressure problems in constant high speed cornering. A quick oil pan baffle did the trick (kept oil out of the sidecovers).

This year we are making our own oil pan, still wet sump.

-Charlie Ping

I just need enough to tide me over until I need more.

[Frank]

charlie,

with the baffle, you can drive in circles continously?

[Sam Zimmerman]

Wet sump with no mods. The most I have seen the oil press. drop to in the hardest corner is 40 psig which is not enough to worry about. (Except that time the oil filter fell off, but that is another topic.) http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Sam Zimmerman
Vandals Racing (http://www.uidaho.edu/~racing)

[ben]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Frank:
charlie,

with the baffle, you can drive in circles continously?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've never understood this - why would you want to drive in a continuous circle in the same direction for that long?

Ben

University of Birmingham
www.ubracing.co.uk (http://www.ubracing.co.uk)

[Charlie]

For Skidpad testing of course!

And yes Frank we have done lots of Skidpad testing. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

-Charlie Ping

I just need enough to tide me over until I need more.

[Jarrod]

theres two junked crankshafts here at Monash that suggest something is needed (aero probably has a bit to do with that) Our ECU had no provision for logging oil pressure in the past, so we've changed for the new car.

[Denny Trimble]

We have a few triple-overhead-cam heads laying around from oil starvation... F4's.

University of Washington Formula SAE ('98, '99, '03, '04)

[Frank]

this is very interesting...

a mixed bag of responses.

thx to all those who replied

oh and ben, what i meant was more like doing 2 laps of skidpad... i found with doing two laps you get a better feel of what you should do with the car

i am wondering what the prefered baffle method is.. bolt in baffles?

kind regards

Frank

[Charlie]

The F4s do have a weak spot on the exhaust cam journals: they tend to burn them. The engine from our 2000 car had a burned cam journal when we tore it down (was running OK). Of course we don't know what its history was.

We have done tire testing with a 100ft skidpad that keeps the car at a more-or-less constant 1.2+ Gs or so for 10-12 revolutions or more. I'm constantly in our engines and have seen no problems since our baffling solution (which is stupid simple).

-Charlie Ping

I just need enough to tide me over until I need more.

[Frank]

makes me wonder if the dry-sump is worth the hassle?

[Matthew]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Frank:
makes me wonder if the dry-sump is worth the hassle?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

hmmmm, me too

-Matthew Hetler
hetl0020@umn.edu

[Foote]

It's worth it just to lower your cd by that much. Check out the difference we made by switching to dry sump.
http://dot.etec.wwu.edu/fsae/SharedPictures/oils_pans_F3_F2mod_V35.JPG
Our engine is substatially lower in the car than any of our previous cars (except the V-8).

Justin Foote
WWU FSAE

[Foote]

maybe i should explain the pic a little. The pan on the left is a stock F2 oil pan, the one in the middle has the legs cut off the bottom, and the one on the right is our oil pan. It's no thicker than the bolt heads holding it on.

Justin Foote
WWU FSAE

[Charlie]

Yeah I would agree from our experience the reliability factor for a dry sump is nil. You can also do what we are doing and make a custom wet sump oil pan to lower your CG.

The compromise is how much lower can your CG go from a wet sump (non stock) to a dry sump, and is this difference enough to offset the additional weight & complexity?

-Charlie Ping

I just need enough to tide me over until I need more.

[SkiEricSki]

How much does your dry sump system weigh? I can definately see serious benefit in lowering the engine(one third or so of the total vehicle weight) by 1-3 inches. That's very significant provided the dry system doesn't weigh too much. We use a CNC'd pan that's maybe 1.5" thick.

[Matthew]

the u of mn has had a dry sump R6 for several years, and we have decided that any benefit gained by lowering the engine a bit (for an R6 it works out to about an inch) is more than offset by the extra volume of oil,that is typically raised up to the new oil tank. also the components for a dry sump outwiegh the stock system by at least 10 pounds and cost thousands of dollars.

Oh, and as i remember only one team who ran a dry sump in detriot in '03 finished the endurance (correct me if i'm wrong.)

-Matthew Hetler
hetl0020@umn.edu

[PatClarke]

Frank, if the judges weren't impressed by your particular dry sump, then you did a lousy job of selling it. It is as neat a solution as I have seen on any FSAE car anywhere!
BTW, watch for a review on the 2003 UQ car in the next issue of RaceTech. Hopefully there are no typos this time http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif
PDR

I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy

[ben]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Charlie:
For Skidpad testing of course!

And yes Frank we have done lots of Skidpad testing. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

-Charlie Ping

I just need enough to tide me over until I need more.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well obviously you go in circles in skidpad testing, but surely and individual run shouldn't be long enough to cause any oil pressure problems?

Ben

University of Birmingham
www.ubracing.co.uk (http://www.ubracing.co.uk)

[Frank]

oh you can sell it Pat... thats not too hard

it's just that im wondering how many teams get into trouble without one...

ben.. "surely and individual run shouldn't be long enough to cause any oil pressure problems?"

i think that seeing oil pressure warning lights is altogether scary, even if they are only quick.

not so scary at startup, but at high rpm with load i think them scary.

im also wondering if the guys who "do nothing" perhaps havn't really driven that long..

Matthew, I cant see how lowering 55kg 3 inches is offset by raising 3kg 18 inches. or have i got the metrics a bit out

[ben]

We do put baffles in the sump.

Ben

University of Birmingham
www.ubracing.co.uk (http://www.ubracing.co.uk)

[Vector006]

We took the stock pan on our F4i and chopped it down to 2", and welded a flat plate across the bottom. We have small baffles around the pickup, and some near the side covers. Since the crank is so far up in the block, we filled it with the same amount of oil we normally would. we didnt think windage would be a problem. We had to modify the pick-up too, no problems yet...

-jvk

Jeremy V. Keller
FSAE04 Technical Head
Roush Industries/UofW CO-OP
vector006@hotmail.com

[Charlie]

The engine CG is foreward of the oil pan. So certain engine mounting can be advantageous and still leave room for the sump. I think that our mounting does not give up more than an inch to the best dry sump setup as far as engine CG goes.

-Charlie Ping

I just need enough to tide me over until I need more.

[Matt Ahl]

We've tested different setups including baffles, dry sumps and many other unheard of things. Our current setup only raises the engine only 1/2" in comparison to our dry sump setup.

[RagingGrandpa]

We've had chronic oiling problems with our F4's. Killed two crankshafts from spun bearings last year. These engines were made to tilt, not slosh. We have oil pressure data and the pressure drops to 10psi or less in nearly every sweeping corner, skidpad is downright scary. Guess what we're playing with right now?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vector006:
We took the stock pan on our F4i and chopped it down to 2", and welded a flat plate across the bottom.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Welding aluminum. Cast aluminum. On a critical part rigidly attached to a vibrating explosion container. I'll pass

"...with powershifts and tiresmoke for all"

[Farls]

Melbourne ran the stock GSXR sump without problem for 3 years AFAIK. The new engine was a different story, but it had a much different sump/pickup design.

------------------------------
Views expressed do not necessarily reflect those of my team or University.

[RagingGrandpa]

The stock GSX-R sump is very pointy though, the F4's is flatter on the bottom, very likely this makes a difference.

"...with powershifts and tiresmoke for all"