Help!!

[RollingCamel]

Hello guys,

Our car has been shipped to Germany however we have a couple of serious problems. We didn't have enough time for testing we just finished what we can and shipped.

First problem is the brakes. Our brake system consists of 2 MC with brake balance bar. The MC is Wilwood 5/8" bore MC and caliper is dynalite single. According to calculations the area ratio is more than enough to provide enough volume for the pistons to move out and touch the rotor. However that doesn't happen. Checking the brakes and talking to Tim from Fedhill i suspect the following:

1. Stiction of the new MC and possibility of entrance of dirt into it.

2. The flexible hoses we bought from Egypt may allow expansion, but that shouldn't because the pads didn't touch the rotors to allow for pressure build up.

3. Copper lines were severely kinked directly after the MC due to tight space.

So basically we don't have a working brake system to speak of. Therefore, I've taken the decision to completely change the hydraulic lines with Copper-Nickel hoses and Earl's Speed Flex hoses with appropriate fittings. The other step we will check the MC and maybe reassemble it if it needs to.

Second problem,

We didn't have enough money until recently so the outfits and harness aren't purchased until now. We didn't do the harness attachments so we may need to weld the parts in Germany but we don't have any welding equipments.

Third Problem,

We had really crap welds on the chassis and will need reinforcement especially the attachment of the rear dampers.

Plus I'm having problems regarding the cost and deep dive subject.

Any help would be appreciated.

PS. Did i mention that the tank is leaking?

[exFSAE]

Ohhhh man, that sounds rough.

[RollingCamel]

Originally posted by exFSAE:
Ohhhh man, that sounds rough.

Oh yes, the last couple of weeks was so stressful. Try getting in into the car and trying to press the clutch and it wouldn't even move. I asked they guy responsible about the pedals for how much ratio we have and he answers 1:1. I was like like "Holy Shit the clutch force measured was about 25 Kgs of force and you want me to move it by just rotating my ankle!"
Under pressure he snapped and left the work for me to finish so i had to improvise. I cut through the floor panel and then bolted 2 cm square tubes on the pedal then attached the wire from under with 2 bolts holding it in place. Looks crap but had to think of something instead of the multi-linkage system that was proposed and designed to fail.

Not to mention how the driver is cramped thanks for the power-train guys, who we barely saw. They did nothing at all and i did there job too selecting the differential, sprocket, chain, bearings, seals and halfshafts, and design the housings and fixture. When i was designing the chassis i was preparing a link to pass under the chain then they came and told that i must lift up the link. After finishing i found the link is straight into the chain's path. Had to move the engine forward and upwards to make it fit. I can barely fit into the car. We have no dashboard or any thing to tell the driver whats going on...

Another guy re-manufactured the rear hub 4 times!! He was responsible for the wheel packaging and design of the upright and hub. After the rotor was finished we found out that there was barely room for the rotor not to mention the caliper. The cnc'ed uprights had to tweaked manufactured rotors couldn't fit even after reducing its diameter for other reasons so it was thrown away.

I like quality and don't like half-assed work, we could have been a much better team, but when 6 out of 16 work and less who really worked hard and got good results you can't expect any better.

Frankly, i didn't want to ship the car anywhere cause my priority is to finish the car first and see it work right, but we were pressured to. The faculty advisor doesn't care if it works or not but it must be shipped for his reputation. At least, it is a chance to meet fellow fsae-ers and join OptimumG seminar to learn more.

This project was filled with lots of frustration and agony but I'm glad i did it anyway since i learned so much. Next teams should be much better since we have now know everything they should know at the start.

Did i mention that the Dean was against us and refused to sign any paper for us lately and had to supersede him and sign it from the University head. All that because we met the governor in order to get fund for shipping and travel although he was in Lebanon at the time.

[Ockham]

Brakes: Sounds like a stuck caliper. Those usually need to be replaced, but if you can rebuild it or free the piston somehow, you might be in the money. If it's not the caliper, that kinked line is probably your culprit. If you can find some stainless line (should be easy in Germany) to replace it, do it. Stainless bends more predictably and doesn't kink easily.

Harness: Someone at competition should have a welder they'll let you use. Not sure if this is true in Germany, but Lincoln operates a booth at competitions in the US, and their pros will usually handle whatever needs welding. They should be able to take care of your chassis issues, too.

Tank leak: If the leak's at a flange, find some Loctite 574. It's a quick-setting flange sealant designed for big gaps in aluminum parts, and the only reason we passed tilt this year. If the leak's at a weld, some epoxy on the tank's inside is your friend.

[thewoundedsoldier]

We did the same thing with our brake rotors. A miscommunication between my brakes guy and myself led to rotors that didn't work with the upright caliper mount. Had to remake all four rotors on our funky CNC machine. That was a few months before competition, though.

[Lorenzo Pessa]

At FSG there is a welder in a specific area (take a look at the handbook). I don't know exactly how the thing work but I can say: don't worry. Take with you some steel plates if you can.

About tank leak, last year there was a Loctite stand with many stuff. I think they will give you the necessary to fix your tank.

What about cost and deep dive? I can't say too much about that but if you explain it better maybe someone can give a help.

Don't discourage yourself. It's not unusual to see unfinished cars in a Formula SAE race.
At Hockenheim you can work also all the night in your pit.
Last year I saw an important team finishing the car the night before the scrutineering.

See you next week!

[RollingCamel]

Originally posted by Ockham:
Brakes: Sounds like a stuck caliper. Those usually need to be replaced, but if you can rebuild it or free the piston somehow, you might be in the money.

When we connected only 1 caliper per MC it worked. As for the lines we are getting Copper-Nickel alloy lines from Fedhill, it was quite impressive to see a 180 degree by hand with no kinking.


Don't discourage yourself. It's not unusual to see unfinished cars in a Formula SAE race.
What bothers me that i only had one chance to make an FSAE car while at college and i do it because i want to prove myself and to be my ticket into real automotive engineering in some company in Europe or America. I have tired myself for one and a half year in order to learn, compete and produce something of good quality and we could have been a really better team it sucks when you see ppl working hard and the others do nothing. Our educational system is a joke they teach us to learn things by heart without understanding or relating it to any real application. And it sucks when you try to do something good and of high quality and your teacher tells you that it wasn't required to do so, at 3rd year they still ask us to draw and do calculations by hand. That is inefficient and a waste of time, i could put much more details into the design if i use programming and CAD and that what i did and for that i got nothing.
Then it sucks how ppl are superficial here, only few will understand how much work was put into the project whether it goes to Germany or not.

Sorry for the rant i just feel that i want to punch or kick something.

[Ockham]

Screw 'em. When the time comes to build something, which is what every worthwhile venture on this Earth must do sometime, you're the one with the edge. Even attempting to make an FSAE car is pretty audacious. I couldn't imagine doing it without the Motor City's infrastructure, and you pulled it off in Egypt, so don't sell yourself short.

[Mike Cook]

If it were me and I was in a bind, I would just order a bunch of flexible stainless steel brake line and run that straight from the MC to the caliper. Also, check to make sure that your caliper pistons aren't pressed all the way out and running out of travel.

Good luck, and believe me, lots of people have been in your shoes before.

Mike

[Adambomb]

Good luck, we've all been there! Always seems to work out that way. We have about 90 registered members, there's maybe 15 that do much of anything, and 75% of the work ends up getting done by 3 people that pretty much live in the shop and slough off their GPA for something worth so much more...

Don't get too down about not having the car up to potential either. We've never had one that didn't have a few (or sometimes a lot of)compromises thrown in at the last minute, and at least at one point we consistently did pretty well (hopefully we'll have better luck next year and get on top again!). When it really comes down to it, you'll make a lot more contacts milling about the paddocks than you ever would at trackside anyway! Sounds like you've got the right attitude to do quite will in Europe or America anyway.

Sounds like you've got the braking problems figured out, the copper lines are definitely a no-go (I remember seeing another thread about this not too long ago), getting some flexible braided stainless lines would be your quickest solution, although it would be much cheaper to get mild steel hard line for everything but the short portions running to the wheels. If you're careful you can bend it by hand as long as you keep the radius over 7 cm or so. I know most parts stores in the states carry sections between 15 cm and just under 2 m that are already flanged with fittings on them; not sure what's available there. Does sound like you've got some sort of dirt in there somewhere, hopefully ditching all the old lines and cleaning out the calipers will take care of it. We've had that happen before; few people understand how important it is to keep the ports, lines, etc. absolutely spotlessly clean all the time, and all it takes is one careless person sending grinding sparks or something else into an open fitting. That combination of MCs and calipers should work fine with about a 4 or 5:1 pedal ratio and something like 20-25cm diameter rotors (we've used pretty much that setup in the past).

Speaking of lever ratios, I'm always amazed at the number of mechanical engineers that don't have a basic understanding of lever ratios, or give any thought to them when designing systems. 1:1 on the clutch is just ridiculous.

[Luniz]

Hi RollingCamel,

when will you guys be hitting the campsite in Hockenheim? Our Team will be there from Tuesday on, and we have quite a few stainless flexi brake lines and fittings as spare parts. We will also bring a TIG welder and have someone who can operate it fairly well. So if you need any help, just pop by and we will try to sort things out! Don't worry, it will be just fine... ;-)

[RollingCamel]

Hello Luniz,

We will be there on Tuesday too around 3:00 pm. We have already shipped what we need and should be available since Monday. Meet you on Tuesday.


Mi Scusi...!!

[Lorenzo Pessa]

Originally posted by RollingCamel:
Mi Scusi...!!

Hey! What about that? That's italian!
The Formula SAE Italy is next month. :-)

Translating it means "I'm sorry" for something wrong you do or you say.

[MalcolmG]

Originally posted by Lorenzo Pessa:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RollingCamel:
Mi Scusi...!!

Hey! What about that? That's italian!
The Formula SAE Italy is next month. :-)

Translating it means "I'm sorry" for something wrong you do or you say. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
It is also probably the funniest part of the movie "Eurotrip"

[Jan_Dressler]

Hi RollingCamel,

if there is something Kiel can't help you with: We will be there at Wednesday, but are located in Karlsruhe, near Hockenheim. We are a bit short on brake lines and fittings http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif, but if there are welding jobs to be done, or some CNC'ed parts needed, we might be able to help you.

Jan

[RollingCamel]

Originally posted by MalcolmG:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lorenzo Pessa:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RollingCamel:
Mi Scusi...!!

Hey! What about that? That's italian!
The Formula SAE Italy is next month. :-)

Translating it means "I'm sorry" for something wrong you do or you say. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
It is also probably the funniest part of the movie "Eurotrip" </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly, all what i can think of now is Eurotrip.

[RollingCamel]

Originally posted by Jan_Dressler:
Hi RollingCamel,

if there is something Kiel can't help you with: We will be there at Wednesday, but are located in Karlsruhe, near Hockenheim. We are a bit short on brake lines and fittings http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif, but if there are welding jobs to be done, or some CNC'ed parts needed, we might be able to help you.

Jan

Thanks Jan. Btw, anyone having a look at our car beware that you'll see some of the ugliest welds in the world. Had to go with speed arc welding by a mechanic at the end.

[RollingCamel]

Guys what size of tents you typically use?

[Lorenzo Pessa]

Eurotrip
I missed it.

About camping there is all the space you want.
Probably there will be a quite fair weather but be prepared for rain.

[Bemo]

I guess you're talking about the campground as you're not allowed to bring any kind of tent to the event site.
At the campground we usually have one big tent for storage of food, cooking, eating in case of bad weather... That tent is 3x6m or something. Having a place to sleep is the responsibility of the team members. Usually we have a couple of small tents in which 2-4 persons sleep (depending on the size of the tent).

I'd also give the advice not to worry too much. If you have any problems just don't mind to ask other teams. It is very hard to come to an overseas competition and everybody understands that you don't have everything available you need.
Just ask the European teams for help.

See you there.

[RollingCamel]

The problem is that the faculty advisor was so happy that he got us 2 tents each takes 5 ppl. We found out yesterday that they are outdoor tents, transparent and not water proof.

Old style tents with wood and cloth but it is heavy and bulky to move with....needs some camels and the picture will be complete.