To Oval or Not...

[Mike Cook]

Posted July 20, 2005 02:20 PM
The point of the oval track would be to put a directional setup on the car.

I'm not a fan of oval racing, but it would certainly be interesting.

I don't see why getting up to speeds seen in the other events would be a safety risk. I'm not talking about a large oval; just something to get up to 60mph at the end of the straights.

University of Washington Formula SAE ('98, '99, '03, '04, '05)

[wrt to US competitions]

I've been thinking about oval racing more and more. Am I the only one who thinks that it's ridiculous to not run ovals in a FSAE car? Considering the fact the Nascar and and Indy car both run mostly ovals, and US students who plan to go in to motorsports are likely to be racing ovals, would it not make since to learn about oval setup, etc? Sure, sure, a car is a car and vehicle dynamics and engine tuning apply to all cars...But I don't know, just think its kinda elitist to not race ovals. It's no wonder the mechanics and nascar land have such disrespect for fresh engineers.

[Mike Cook]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Posted July 20, 2005 02:20 PM
The point of the oval track would be to put a directional setup on the car.

I'm not a fan of oval racing, but it would certainly be interesting.

I don't see why getting up to speeds seen in the other events would be a safety risk. I'm not talking about a large oval; just something to get up to 60mph at the end of the straights.

University of Washington Formula SAE ('98, '99, '03, '04, '05) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[wrt to US competitions]

I've been thinking about oval racing more and more. Am I the only one who thinks that it's ridiculous to not run ovals in a FSAE car? Considering the fact the Nascar and and Indy car both run mostly ovals, and US students who plan to go in to motorsports are likely to be racing ovals, would it not make since to learn about oval setup, etc? Sure, sure, a car is a car and vehicle dynamics and engine tuning apply to all cars...But I don't know, just think its kinda elitist to not race ovals. It's no wonder the mechanics and nascar land have such disrespect for fresh engineers.

[Jersey Tom]

Its a very good point.. American racing has a lot of ovals in it.. and oval track setup would be something very new to most people and good to learn.

[Dr Claw]

We are making autocross cars here though.

I think if they required oval racing, the makeup of a FSAE car would have to change drasticaly and...it'd loose it's identity.

there's a reason we can get away with making things too small so that we can chase performance (the FSAE way), or have parts last 3 months on a car that wont ever run again after said part fails. we race in parking lots with cones. we design corners arround runnoff room. failures dont have you crashing into walls at high speeds unless you're Lawrence Tech and it's the Wednesday of competition.

If you run ovals in an FSAE car...your car would start looking like a baja car - 1" tubes and mig welding. loss of identity and wouldnt be the same if you ask me.

[Nihal]

Wouldn't a flat cone walled oval work? You don't need banked ovals with walls.

[VFR750R]

Isn't the skidpad a mini 2 directional oval?
And if a bigger oval was used I don't know why the cars would change looks, isn't an Indy car chassis the same at Oval and Road tracks?

[AK UT]

Don't they call that skidpad?

[pengulns2001]

i find it hard to believe you would WANT to get into oval racing... what kind of oval would take take an fsae car on anyway they only go like 80

[VFR750R]

1/8 mile banked oval scaled from Bristol, It'd be sick, but I'd be scared shitless to drive on it. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[absolutepressure]

I'm guessing that by indy, you mean F1? Because if you do, F1 tracks are very technical and don't look anything like an oval.

VFR, you said "isn't an indy car chassis the same at oval and road tracks?" I'm guessing the answer is yes since I don't know what you mean by indy(anapolis?) cars. However, as you said, they do both, if you wanted to optimize your car for only oval style racing, it would end up looking more like a nas(gay)car. I mean they've been doing that for decades, you think they'd have the right design by now, right?

[VFR750R]

Indy cars are made for going in circles first... and even though the racing sucks..they are sick.
At richmond which is a D shaped 3/4 mile track, we go from ~95 in the corners to 155 on the straights. Indy cars go flat out and average about 165; going 157 through turns 1-2. (By flat out I mean...they don't lift the throttle at all)
So as much as it sucks to admit Indy cars make Cup cars look like go-carts you pay 5 dollars to drive at the mall.

Point. Do indy cars look like 'oval cars' compared to Cart or F1? Their noses are more pointed with smaller tires in front then back, but there is no stagger and unless you look head on you couldn't tell the camber of the inside tires is positive.
Not that I'm a proponent of oval racing in FSAE, but it's not that crazy, and most engineers would be wise to look at nascar and indy as viable employeers because that's where the money and job security is.
And by limiting it to 1 event of the competition you will still have to bring a car that must turn both directions. Better yet, add an oval event but organizers keep secret until the thursday of the comp which direction you'll have to run it!

[Bill Kunst]

Open Wheelers:
Sprint
USAC
IRL
CART
Formula 1
Formula 3
Formula 5000
Formula Ford
Formula Atlantic
Amod
Formula Mazda
GP2
A1 Grand Prix

Okay, that is a list of all that I could find.

The ones that drive around until they get dizzy:
USAC, Sprint, IRL, and sometimes CART.

Some do it as a dedicated addiction, some as a rare occasion. What you will find is that setups are exclusive. You can take a road track car and put it on an oval, or vice cersa. In both conditions, your car will suffer compared to the one that is balanced to be there.

As for the competition, and wanting to drive in circles until puke comes out the nose: Buy the biggest piece of shit four cylinder car, take it to the local dirt track, and do what they do (lose brain cells). I personally cannot stand watching cars drive in circles for three to four hours, where the drivers bitch and complain about who has the sweeter deal with the rules until they just make the cars all the same. They should call it formula nascar.

Bill

[JerryLH3]

The Star Mazda series also has one event at the oval in Phoenix. So, Formula Mazdas are taken to an oval at least once a year.

[Charlie]

IndyCar rules dictate a lot and that makes them keep a similar shape on the ovals. Without rules they'd have the chassis offset, among other things.

It would be cool to have FSAE do ovals, but only if it is in conjunction with a 'road course/autocross' event. That way the car would have to do both and teams would learn more about setup.

No, skidpad is not the same as an oval, because it does not teach anyone how to make a car turn one way only. That's what oval racing is all about.

There would have to be some rules to prevent goofy oval-only cars. Either make the cars run both ways on the oval (allow setup changes between directons), or require the same suspension for the oval (same a-arms).

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by absolutepressure:
I'm guessing that by indy, you mean F1? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

?? OK, I guess you could assume that, maybe if your Mother or Grandmother was talking about racing. Most race fans know the difference between IndyCar and F1.

[James Waltman]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by absolutepressure:
I'm guessing that by indy, you mean F1? Because if you do, F1 tracks are very technical and don't look anything like an oval. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

absolutepressure,
You just confused the hell out of me. They are talking about Indy Cars. The Indy 500?
http://www.indycar.com/
Surely you've heard of it...

As for the knowledge from a FSAE oval event transferring to big time racing...
I can't see how it would make that much difference. The success of FSAE is that it teaches engineering basics. Maybe a few former FSAE guys who are oval racing now can comment. Charlie or VFR? Would an oval event in FSAE have helped you in your current positions? (I realize that you are both involved with the engines.)

For the record – I don't like oval racing. It's just boring.

[Mike Cook]

James, I worked in Nascar Land, and will continue to do so in the future. No, I don't find it as exciting as road courses, however it is where the job security and money is at. When I first went there I was very iffy about the whole thing, but after working along side other engineers, the stuff they do is not unlike FSAE. Another interesting aspect to oval racing in how complicated setups can get. Instead of basically having a front and rear axle, you have independent setups on all four wheels which can get complicated quickly. Coming out of FSAE I would say I was pretty lost.

My suggestion is to make a counter clock wise course, no banking, top speed of about 60, you will have plenty of space to do this. Cars must maintain a certain weight percentage on the right vs left. Really the only thing you can do is add wedge, stagger tires, air pressure, dampers, camber.

You all might hate nascar, but just wait until you graduate. Sweet racing jobs are few and far between.

[Biggy72]

I did a little circle track racing before I got involved with formula and I know for a fact that the knowledge I learned setting up each corner differently made me much better at setting up a formula SAE car.

As said in the post before this the set ups get much much more complicated than setting up just the front or rear of a car and that's what I like about it personally.

From the sounds of it most of the people here would rather work HVAC than racing.

[Duff]

i guess that would save the drivers from having to memorize a track.
"what came after those 2 left turns? oh yeah, a left turn"

i try to avoid speaking for the rest of the world, but from what ive heard, the general concensus is that oval racing is a boring and unimaginative idea. (not for FSAE, but in general)

personally, id rather watch cars going left turn, chicane, straight, right turn, hairpin etc, than left turn, left turn, left turn, left turn

as you said thou, for americans wanting to get into race teams in america, experience with setting up a car for an oval track would be an advantage, but i think it would damage the competition on an international level

[ss_collins]

If a UK team wants to run its FSAE car on a short oval - I can arrange it. I like the idea of an oval run - though perhaps not as part of the competition...

The UK has a thriving short oval racing scene with around 50 tracks.

[AK UT]

I think some of you are forgetting the only good thing about oval racing, that the racing is so close. Since we don't really run wheel to wheel then one car out on a circle track would pretty much be a skidpad. Going wheel to wheel would introduce a whole new level of safety issues that this competition isnt ready for and isnt suited for.

Now whether or not these cars would do good on a track like that I think our chassis guy Mike might be able to chime in here, I believe he took our car around one of his sprint car circle tracks.

Don't get me wrong, Wheel to Wheel would be fun, but I have a feeling that Toledo would be shoving Akron into the wall every year at competition, haha.

[pengulns2001]

i think the most shocking thing about this thread is that absolutepressure didnt know what an indy car was http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

[absolutepressure]

Yeah, I learned something today. I thought that Indy dried up and transformed into what is now F1. I guess not. I don't have the speed channel, and when I do get to watch it, it's either awesome F1 or sickening GAYCAR. I haven't heard about indy cars for well, 10 years? It must not be that popular. Probably because they go in a circle and people in the north aren't as simple minded and amused by circle races, so there is no support/publicity for it up here. At least not in Wisconsin. Sorry if I offended anyone.

[Mike Cook]

Sam, I appreciate the offer...I only wish I was in the UK...

I think most you guys should get your head out of your asses. Yes watching a single car go in an oval - not that much fun. But then again, watching a single car do an autocross run is not that much fun to watch either.

Oh I almost forgot, this competition is about engineering a fast car not having fun watching it run.

To suggest an oval track event would damage the competition on an international level; whats your justification?

It certainly seems that we have a small group of closed minded people here. Most real race guys I know would love the oppertunity and challange to try something new. Especially, something as complex as oval racing.

[pengulns2001]

yeah popularity of the indy cars took a huge dive after the champ/indy split

[Kenny T Cornett]

How could you be into motorsports AT ALL and not know about Danica?

[Alan]

I think an oval event, whether officially part of the comp or not (like R&T) would be an excellent idea. Setting up a car for one direction would be a fun challenge.

The fact of the matter is, if you want to do hardcore motorsports engineering, Nascar is the place to be (in the US). The behind the scenes engineering capability of a good Cup operation is above and beyond any open wheel/sportscar team in the US. Maybe you don't like oval racing or whatever, but if you enjoy engineering, don't discount Nascar.

[Garlic]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by absolutepressure:
Yeah, I learned something today. I thought that Indy dried up and transformed into what is now F1. I guess not. I don't have the speed channel, and when I do get to watch it, it's either awesome F1 or sickening GAYCAR. I haven't heard about indy cars for well, 10 years? It must not be that popular. Probably because they go in a circle and people in the north aren't as simple minded and amused by circle races, so there is no support/publicity for it up here. At least not in Wisconsin. Sorry if I offended anyone. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you think IndyCar became F1, then you don't know anything about F1 either!

Milwaukee has hosted Indycars for several years and Champ Car (formerly IndyCar) for at least a quarter century. And yes, it's an oval. The oldest operating oval in the world (yep before all those 'southern' ovals).

So... It's not 'northerners' or 'Wisconsiners' that don't support Oval or Indycar racing, it's you. Or better put, you don't even know it exists. You are living in a hole with the top plugged if you are halfway interested in motorsports and don't know what's running in your backyard, or how it's different from F1.

[drivetrainUW-Platt]

its Wisconsites or cheeze heads for the record......

[absolutepressure]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Garlic:

If you think IndyCar became F1, then you don't know anything about F1 either!

Milwaukee has hosted Indycars for several years and Champ Car (formerly IndyCar) for at least a quarter century. And yes, it's an oval. The oldest operating oval in the world (yep before all those 'southern' ovals).

So... It's not 'northerners' or 'Wisconsiners' that don't support Oval or Indycar racing, it's you. Or better put, you don't even know it exists. You are living in a hole with the top plugged if you are halfway interested in motorsports and don't know what's running in your backyard, or how it's different from F1. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're right, I know nothing about the history of racing except for that of nascar, thanks to the movie Cars. Is it really affecting my life? No. Before my junior year in high school I was mainly interested in heavy machinery. Do you know the history of the steamshovel? Where is was first invented and for what purpose? That year I shifted my attention to cars, and even then it was working on them, not following the racing aspect of them. By working on the cars and appreciating them for what they really were, I realized that this is what I wanted to do. So then I go to college, get into Formula and find that my knowledge of cars is increasing at an exponential rate, mainly focusing on the theory behind engines, but I'm learning great amounts about the other areas of the car as well. So I appologize for not taking the time out of my schedule to research the entire history of racing and sit in front of the televison for hours on end watching cars go around in a circle. I've been too busy researching and inventing ways to increase the volumetric efficiency of an engine. What I'm trying to say is "Give me some time, jackass, I'm still learning."

By the way, I don't know where the hell up over 3 is, but I do know it's not Wisconsin, so you especially don't have the right to speak for us. If the oldest operating oval is only 25 years old, what does that say for it's popularity?

[VFR750R]

Dude, if you don't know anything about oval racing...how come in early posts you say it's boring and call Nascar Gaycar. If havn't watched more then 10 minutes of it how can you have a basis for an argument. You obviously have no knowledge of oval racing but have generalized it based on what you've heard about it from other nonracers....and the movie Cars is NOT a summary of Nascar....and neither is Talledega Nights, they are both spoofs where you would laugh even more as a Nascar fan then someone going to make fun at Nascar.

And oval racing is a lot more then just turning left. The setup is different at every track we go to; springs, shocks, camber, toe, wedge, offests, tire pressures, even the left and right side wheelbases are different. There are as many different ways to make an oval as there are road courses.

Oval racing seperates the men from the boys in chassis setup, and yes driving it is easier but then the lap time is more reflective of the chassis then it is the driver, which I think everyone agrees would make the competition a better measurment of how good your car and your understanding of how the car performs then what driver you shoe in it.

[VFR750R]

By the way...this isn't a forum on steam shovels so no, nobody gives a shit, but we do know about race cars because it has a direct connection to what we are all doing. Maybe you could make a better FSAE car if you knew about the current ideas and technologies being used by Professional racing series.
If you get a chance go to the PRI show in December, it could be a big eye opener as well as a great place to talk to industry experts for all the major cars systems in hundereds of different kinds of 'real' racecars. That goes for everyone in FSAE, PRI show should be high on list of stuff to do.

[NJM.]

I really get frustrated with the anti oval sentiment out there. I know it comes from misperceptions and, sorry for this, ignorance. I am the first to admit that I was ignorant at one time as well. I despised NASCAR when I worked for sports car teams. I thought there was no intelligent people involved and was jealous of all the publicity and money that continued to be poured into NASCAR. And although I have my problems with our sanctioning body sometimes, I wouldn't go to any other form of racing for anything less than rediculous amounts of money.

I won't defend NASCAR at all costs, it certainly does have problems, and I won't argue with you if you don't enjoy it. I will argue that NASCAR racing is the most challenging form of motorsports in the world. The 36 race schedule is daunting to any driver, team, or engineer. The huge variation in tracks is another. Most other forms of motorsports including f1 and IRL can adjust their cars to specific tracks by adjusting aerodynamic devices such as wings and splitters. We have to build entirely new cars custom to each differnt type of track. I think each of our 3 cup teams have built 10-15 new cars each for 2006. Then you have our 2 1/2 busch teams with almost as many cars each. So we are talking about 50 new or updated cars each year. Lest you forget that us NASCAR rednecks do turn left and right. We have 3 road course races a year between 2 series. These all present giant engineering challenges. Most of the rules that keep our cars archaic serve to also make the engineering challenges harder not easier. When sports cars can run closed loop engine control we have no electronics to help us and we have hugely complex multi phase carburetor systems. Also our high mandated weight make HUGE cornering loads which have to be resolved by structural engineers. We have highly pitch sensitive cars aerodynamically which makes ride height control paramount and rules that force us to travel our suspensions more than WRC cars coming off 6 foot jumps! What may seem simple is actually insanely complex. I would also argue that driving a NASCAR is more of a challenge than any other form or racing as well and drivers seeking a challenge continue to make the switch. For example, Juan Montoya who I am sure will struggle initially in cup racing. Marcos Ambrose who was a V8 super car champ has barely been competitive in Busch and Truck series racing. Tony Stewart who dominated open wheel oval racing came to NASCAR as a successful driver although he wont finish in the top 10 this year. Not only is it drivers seeking a challenge. More and more engineers and engineering firms are courting NASCAR. Nick Hayes, former director of Cosworth F1 engines, now runs our engine R&D department. Also in our road course races, which should be the great equalizer, the ringers arent winning. Jeff Gordon won 1 of the races, and Kevin Harvick won the other for us. Both dedicated stock car racers. Boris Said and Ron Fellows who are extremely successful in sports car racing are good at road courses but when we only turn left are not competitive. Jeff Gordon and Jimmie Johnson won the european based international race of champions a few years ago. Because of our high weight and type of tires we have we operate very near the slip limit at all times. This takes huge concentration and highly sensitive drivers. This also requires engineers to make the cars as forgiving as possible.

I love f1 and sports cars and V8 supercars and the challenges that those series present. I also enjoy the racing in those series. I love to see a f1 car run off the front and dominate a race even if the only pass of the entire day occurs in the pits, because i know some engineer got a lot of variables right for their driver on that day. But i think i am the minority, in fact i know i am the minority, just look at NASCAR tv(Speed). I hate that i cant watch WRC anymore on Speed, but they are just catering to their major audience, however annoying that is. But professional racing is a mix of entertainment and engineering. Enjoy your time in FSAE where it is purely engineering. The entertainment side will piss you off one day if you stick with it, although it pays the bill, nicely i might add in NASCAR.

Sorry for such a long post, but I only would like to share my experiences and what i have learned over the years. I have been a "go fast turn left" hater in the past. You dont have to like the racing, but dont think for a second it is not challenging or that we are all ignorant. I know i am way off topic but I wanted to rant once.

As for racing FSAE cars on ovals, I think it would be cool as hell, although i think they would have to run separately due to the dangers of touching wheels. It would be interesting though. It would also make engineers much more attractive to me if I were interviewing them.

Noah McKay
Aero Engineer - Richard Childress Racing
NC State Alum

[pengulns2001]

its just funny to joke about it, obviously the engineers are smart and the drivers are.... well decent, but its BORING AS HELL i cant watch 10 minutes of it no matter how close the race is... although i cant say that if someone gave me a call and asked me to drive a nascar that i would turn it down http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[VFR750R]

Well thought post,
I'd like to add that Professional racing exists only because it is a media for advertising. Love it or hate it, you can embrace it, or you can design refrigerators.

As far as an oval event, i've decided it should replace the autocross. With 2 flying laps it would take less time and present a unique challenge to the endurance instead of the qualifying run for endurance it is now. All adjustments should be allowed that don't involve parts changes. Basically, if it's adjustable on your car, you can adjust it for the oval event. And hopefully, that would prevent cars with offset bodies/engines/drivers and limit it to camber, wedge, ect changes.

[Biggy72]

Even the "backwoods" type of guys I've met racing ovals had a far better understanding of vehicle dynamics than pretty much anyone in our club. They may not have known why a change made it react that way, but they do know what will happen.

I think an oval would be great because I know had we run our 06 car on an oval at any decent rate of speed we probably would have had catastrophic wheel bearing failure... But because we didn't have to they barely made it through the endurance.

Ovals would probably help out the aero teams quite a bit though because they will definitely be going faster than on the skid pad and I heard UMR was pulling some pretty high g loads through the corners of the endurance event at west this year.

[Mike Cook]

Maryland will be going to Cali this year. If anyone is really interested in doing an oval event after competition of whatever I would definitly be interested in doing it. I know it is a lot to organize but I think it would be well worth it. My only request is to require the cars to maintain a close to 50-50% weight Left to right.

Mike
D.E.I.

[absolutepressure]

VFR, I can tell that you aren't that good at reading for content, because if you were, you wouldn't have even replied. I do know about oval and nascar racing, as I said, and it's not just from Cars. I have watched some races, and as said by NJM, it's boring and TOTALLY monopolizes SPEED tv. That's why I call it Gaycar (take note that I didn't coin that term, it's been around for awhile). My Great Uncle was a stock car racer for 25years in the 30's 40's and 50's. I don't hate that form of racing, because back then it was dirt track racing, and at least that had style. I have no problem watching dirt track racing. It's interesting, not invigorating like F1, but interesting to watch none the less.

"There are as many different ways to make an oval as there are road courses." I think that if you sit and actually think about it, you would prove yourself wrong. Just one example, going down a hill and simultaneously going around a decreasing radius right turn, making a hairpin left, and going up a hill with a chicane at the top. I think you were forgetting about the 3rd dimension when you were comparing the two types of tracks.

On to your next post, if you unclouded your mind of the anger and disgust you were feeling towards me (it came through in your words) when you were reading my post, you would have read it and interpreted what I was saying, instead of seeing the meaning as only skin deep. By refering to steam shovels, I was pointing out that when Garlic was ridiculing me for not knowing anything about indy car racing, I was ridiculing him for not knowing anything I know a lot about. See the correlation? If you're still confused, reread my post, you'll see that cars are relatively new to me, and I've only had 4 years to learn about them.

Let's see... ah, another misunderstanding of my post. You believe that I know nothing about current technology. As you should have seen, I said I knew nothing about the history of racing, not the current developments of engineering. I am very aware of what's currently out there, and am also aware that most of that technology is extremely expensive. We have very limited funds, and very limited machining abilities. Therefore, I am refining the more basic principles that can be integrated with the resources that we have.

NEVER question my ability to engineer. I am not stupid, nor are you. I'm just guessing that english isn't high on Cornell's list. Reading for content is grade school shit, so save us both the time next time and read for the meaning of the post.

You want to question my engineering? (Ooo, boy, you struck a nerve with me) You act like I engineered the whole car. Here, let me use the word 'you,' among others, in the same context that you did: You couldn't even make it though endurance, and guess what, we did. Who's the ignorant engineer now?

[B Hise]

I'm busy designing the 07, so I'll make this short.

I worked at an Indy car team for the summer, and I have paramount appreciation for NASCAR engineers. The technology of their cars separates the men from the boys in setup and vehicle development.

I think an oval event is a fantastic idea. Sorting out an oval car is very complex. Just try the experienced teams on the ovals; they'll make you look even worse than they do in the autocross.

As for the kid from Platteville, I would collect 20+ years experience and 7 or so championships in FSAE before you criticize anyone from Cornell, who also happens to have found success in a level of racing most FSAE students can only dream of.

Bryan
UMD

[GSpeedR]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by absolutepressure:
NEVER question my ability to engineer. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hahahaha You'll have to wait a couple months for the Academy Award but you definitely get a nomination from me.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">You want to question my engineering? (Ooo, boy, you struck a nerve with me) You act like I engineered the whole car. Here, let me use the word 'you,' among others, in the same context that you did: You couldn't even make it though endurance, and guess what, we did. Who's the ignorant engineer now? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow, if VFR flies over there and shoots you in the leg I am willing to testify that you had it coming.

Back to the subject at hand, I was reading some of the Racecar Engineering articles regarding Assymmetrical Racecars (I think they were written by Ortiz) and simply the fact that the diff is moutned to the sprung mass causing torque roll, which complicates everything to a huge degree. Some teams have developed (where allowed) engines that spin the opposite direction just to change on-throttle wedge characterisitcs. They seem like a simple problems to deal with but the rules make them fucking terrible. Not to mention the cheating going on makes everything that much more fun.

You still get a couple of roadcourses which is nice and different, and the competition is so fierce that you never have (boring) dominance of one car such as Ferrari a couple years ago.

[VFR750R]

First, I apologize, I get all antsy in the pantsy sometimes, especailly when I see people rant without adding anything worthwhile to the conversation.

As far as your knowledge of NASCAR and I qoute

"You're right, I know nothing about the history of racing except for that of nascar, thanks to the movie Cars"

That says you know about the history of nascar thanks to Cars. I think my english comprehesion skills are just fine, thank you. Maybe you miswrote?

Your quote from the first page on nascar says
"I mean they've been doing that for decades, you think they'd have the right design by now, right?"

Regardless if you were being scarcastic or not here I took this seriously due to your lack of knowledge of oval racing in general. If you knew anything about Nascar you would know that Nascar has strict templets and a rule book a couple hundred pages long that describes in detail every area of the car what is acceptable and what is not. So it is far from optimum, and that is some of why it is such a difficult engineering problem, you have to optimize a system of unoptimized subsystems.

A comment like "If the oldest operating oval is only 25 years old, what does that say for it's popularity?" is a joke right. Since oval racing IS very popular. And racing ovals has been around since oh forever. I think the first INDY race was held in 1911 or something....and its an oval.

So forgive me if I don't take your opinions of oval racing seriously.

By the way
IRL, Nascar, and F1 are certainly not 'history', that would be current events. And currently, Nascar and IRL have more fans in the US then F1.

Ok my quote of 'maybe you could make a better FSAE car' was not to mean your current FSAE skills are not up to snuff, but your lack of knowledge outside of FSAE about racing led me to believe you didn't know about racing outside FSAE, if that makes since, so I suggested the PRI show (constructive).


I have yet to see you put in a comment on racing ovals in FSAE. Your first post was to discredit my first comment on ovals and then defend yourself to everyone else here.
Every post here from you is in a negative tone and now mine are too, so ante up an opinion on OVAL racing in FSAE or shut up.

[TGrau]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by absolutepressure:
Yeah, I learned something today. I thought that Indy dried up and transformed into what is now F1. I guess not. I don't have the speed channel, and when I do get to watch it, it's either awesome F1 or sickening GAYCAR. I haven't heard about indy cars for well, 10 years? It must not be that popular. Probably because they go in a circle and people in the north aren't as simple minded and amused by circle races, so there is no support/publicity for it up here. At least not in Wisconsin. Sorry if I offended anyone. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Correct me if I'm wrong, but Matt Kenseth and his crew chief, Robbie Reiser are leading in Nextel Cup points, and both are from Wisconsin. Care to come up with another brain dead theory about oval track racers?

[Bill Kunst]

Does saying that I am more excited to take a shit than watch NASCAR make me ignorant. The funny thing is, most people that watch NASCAR for entertainment watch simply for the crashes (a result of close racing, not vice versa).

I love road racing, from karting, SM, Speed World challenge, to FIM GP. What I love best, and something that you don't get in NASCAR, is the extreme battles. Rossi, Duhamel, and the Kentucky Kid. The amazing driving skill of a driver like Schuey, and the if you touch, your done. In NASCAR, a touch rarely means a crash(Bump them, drive past). In most road racing, touches can mean the end of the day. This is why I sit on the edge of my seat for road racing and flip the channel for NASCAR.

And like some of you have said, in NASCAR, setup wins.

Valentino Rossi's
MotoGP World Championships 7 (1997, 1999, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005)

This is a man that was not given very much credit on the HONDA when kicking ass, went to the then underpowered Yamaha's, and still kicked ass.

This is what I live for, and why I don't like ovals. Should it be in the comp? I think it might be a logistical nightmare (unless it is a strict flat, cone course) for event organizers. Will it be a challenge to compete well on? Hell, over half the cars don't compete in one or more dynamic events. Thats hard enough!!

[absolutepressure]

It appears to me that we were talking from different angles about relatively the same thing, which is why we weren't seeing eye to eye. We each had our own perspective on what the topic was about and that's where the problem came from. All I add to that from here on out is "Good luck on your 07 car, and I hope that you perform well in the upcoming competition."

In respect to the oval event proposition, all feelings aside, I vote no. I feel that way for several reasons.
1. If you're gonna go oval, go all the way. It definately wouldn't be as fun if it wasn't banked, and I highly doubt it will be.
2. The judges will probably still want the cars to stick to lower speeds, and thus make the track really short since these things accelerate like supercars.
3. Because of the short track, low number of laps, and the low speeds, I feel that the times will be fairly close together and it will, overall, be a redundant event to the skid-pad. A circular (actually oval in this case) type track with a low number of short, timed laps. I think that the autocross track really separates a team's chassis, suspension, and engine designs due to the major speed and direction changes over a longer period of time as opposed to a fairly constant speed circular type track. Look at the time spread between the first and last cars for skidpad, then do the same for autocross. I think that the large time spread in the autocross better represents the abilities of the different cars.

As a side note, if I recall correctly I remember someone saying something to the effect of this being an engineering competition, and that it shouldn't be about the fun of watching the car race. Man, if you're not having fun watching what you helped create run against other teams from around the world, I'm not sure what you're getting out of it. I hope you don't think designing a race car is a chore. I'd say this is extremely fun, both building and watching it.

[Cody the Genius]

I think that an oval would be cool but see the biggest problem with fitting it into the competition. The only way there would be time for it would be to eliminate one of the other events and the most comparable time wise would be Autocross as accel and skidpad serve more as as individual vehicle metrics than a determination of how the car will handle during endurance. Autocross does serve a good purpose as an endurance qualifier though as nobody wants to be "penalized" for having the "slow car" in their run group.


I would be of the mindset that if the most was to be gained from an oval track than it would not be a flat, cone walled paking lot but rather a banked high speed (75-95 mph) circuit. Without banking or at least moderately faster speeds the gains of setback, wheelbase stagger, weight distubition, and aero (which heavily dominates oval racing) would be much less noticible and it really would just be a big, oil starving, one-way skid pad.



on a separate note- absolute pressure, you seem like a pretty cool guy normally and at least answer most questions ok, but what has happened in this thread is rediculous. Really, no one cares that you don't like nascar as much as no one cares that you don't know the history of racing or that you do know a lot about steam shovels. I will add though that you should stop trying to pick fights with people as a way of making yourself look smarter. The guy that doesn't care to see his car race because he would rather be engineering it, doesn't really matter either as long as his car is sweet and he is happy. The main purpose of this short rant is that a topic with as most 1 1/2 pages worth of true insight is about to break 3 because of all the posts defending yourself and pissing off more people. I mean I am an engineer. I don't like to read.

[Dave M]

Personally I think it would be cool, but the cars would need to built with more safety in mind because of the possibly higher speeds. I think an oval would take away some driver out of the car and show more of the car or setup. Im not saying alot, but a more than now. I think people that are only familiar with road courses underestimate what it takes to tune an oval car. Its not as easy to just find a setup and stick with it (not saying thats all road course set ups are), but you make some major changes to keep up with the track.

Do ovals belong in FSAE, probobly not, but it would still be cool.

[Welfares]

I can see why some guys would want to have ovals in FSAE. But i think it would be sad to restrict the competition in such a way that the skill gained would apply so much to 1 or 2 series.
With the current setup, you are learning things that apply to road racing, but also road cars in general.
Also, i can't speak for the UK, but i think in Australia, it would be almost tottally irrevlivant, we have sprint cars here, but its not that big.
We do know of Nascar here, they bundle all the crashes together and show them occasionally, but i don't think that what racing's about.

Its a pity this became such an angry thread.

[mangel83]

I'm from Venezuela, and the car racing industry here is practically non-existant, we have a karting series and a 1/4 mile drag racing series of modified stock cars that run on gasoline, with the record being of around 8 seconds (nothing like those alcohol fueled dragsters or funny cars you guys have that make under 5 secs.) and that's about it, not to mention nobody gets a living out of it, it's just a hobby.

Putting that aside I enjoy any kind of motor racing and try to watch as much as I can (even though I don't have speed channel) Nascar, IRL, Champ Car, F1, WRC, NHRA drag racing, MotoGP, Motocross, etc, etc, etc, hey, if there were a gasoline powered mopeds racing series I'll sure watch it! I might not know the history of racing but I know names like Jeff Gordon, Dale Earnhart, Danica Patrick, Carrol Shelby, and a few others. Personally I prefer road racing over oval racing but that's just me, I beleive both are equally challenging, engineeringly speaking.

But back on the subject, Oval racing in FSAE???? I don't think so.. Why? well; first, I don't think the organizers will ever allow high speed wheel to wheel racing; second, it would be a flat oval (no banking) wich won't teach you a lot about the setup for a racing series like nascar and indy.

I know oval racing is the most popular in the U.S. but I don't think running ovals in FSAE will give you an edge when applying for a job in nascar or so. In my opinion we, fsaers, are the most appealing young engineers the motorsport industry can get. I think that any nascar team would hire a fsae grad rather than a regular grad anytime, even with the fact that fsae isn't oval racing.

I don't think there is a student designed oval car racing series yet, and until then, IMO, we are the best option for any kind of motorsport-related company.

[VFR750R]

Ovals in Nascar aren't always banked but the best racing is usually on banked ovals. Pheonix, Loudon, and martinsville are all flat or almost flat tracks. Even Indy is relatively flat compared to the atlantas and charlottes.

I agree you can't have wheel to wheel action, the risk is too high, anyone who has watched legends car racing has seen legends cars crash.

As far as different types of ovals, i still say you can make hundreds of distinctly different ovals with the third dimension being the banking. At some tracks the banking is constant around the turn, some the track drops down on the inside (dover) meaning if your running the inside line the car drops down in the corner and has to power up out of it. Then there is the variable banking angle tracks where the banking is steeper at the outer line then the inside line. This can make a car on the outside be able to run as fast as a car on the inside. Every track has a unique line that is the fastest around it, and it can change depending on the condition of the tires and temp of the track. Not to mention that most ovals are not true ovals but have some curvature to one straight, meaning broken down turns 1 2 3 and 4 are all unique(but all to the left). Some tracks like darlington have a different radius at one of the track then the other (egg shaped) so one full corner is 170 deg and the other 190 or something to that effect with different speeds at one end of the track then the other, meaning setup has to be compromised between the two ends of the track.