2008 Formula SAE Registration

[Chris Allbee]

Rob,

You have had to defend your post several times already, so I don't think it was just my sensibilities you offended. Your comments were insulting to a very wide group of people. People who like to dream big and try to obtain things through hard work and determination. People willing to work for what they have and not necessarily accept the easy way out. If someone wants to play with the big dogs on a smaller budget who's to say they don't have the right to try?

To address with your concerns of my "scanning" of your post...

"Struggle less and learn more in another series or struggle more and learn less in FSAE. There is a reason for second and third teir sports. Some people just arent equipped to play with the big boys. Welcome to the real world and not the FSAE world."

How did I not interpret this correctly? You have not succeeded in bringing your car to competition these last few years, whereas others, on an equally restrictive budget, have made it. They succeeded where you have failed. Don't discount their experiences just because you couldn't obtain what they did. I doubt that any one of those people would agree that they would have learned more if it had just been an easier time about it.

And in general, I know we are all supposed to be engineers here with cold intellectual minds who feel nothing, but welcome to the real world. Engineers are people and people have emotions. Perhaps you should consider that. As much as you would like to think that engineering is about numbers and technology, it is just as much about people. You need to be able to work with others and around others emotions as well as your own when the time calls for it. However, if you let all the passion drain out then you have no reason to continue when the going gets tough, as you have indicated.

Quit if you want to, but I would never tell someone to completely give up on a goal because of the lack of cash...unless you have exhausted EVERY SINGLE RESOURCE...BFQ.

[rjwoods77]

Chris,

I speak from three baja cars and one formula so I think I have some guap behind what I say. Your point brings up another thing that is fucked up that I am sure most teams dont talk about or care about. "Every single resource" is crap. What that really means is "lie to every sponsor about our abilities and preparedness to represent them as best as possible in order to meet MY needs." One thing that really gets my goat is I raised huge amounts of cash and in kind donations in the order of 10-15k worth. I had to work with a team that was new and didnt care what we had to do in order to keep pushing such as you speak. When we failed I had to make about 30 very uncomfortable phone calls and visits to tell them why we didnt get it done in time. I went to comp to apologize to the design judges I knew from over the years that really wanted us to get our unique car there. Also to watch Dearborn (yeahhhhhhh go Dearbornnnnnn,21st in autocross with a sit-in Honda Rancher/Foreman) I felt worse doing this than not finishing the car. These people went out of their way, moved their own production work, their own dollars, their own time to help a bunch of college students that they shouldnt have helped in the first place now that I think back on it. We used these people. We had good intentions but intentions are bullshit. In the end I overstated our potential to finish with time to test and I can say i will never get involved again with an organization that treats other peoples money and resources and/or the competition as something that time and energy will solve. I gave up more than anyone should for this competition that I love. But once again reflecting on it I shouldnt have stepped up with all I had to work against. Especially at the expense of hard working buisness people. You speak from emotion and not logic. That is real scary.

[VFR750R]

Again, don't assume your circumstances must be shared by other teams; changing registration requirements is not an FSAE problem, it's your problem.
Your self righteousness regarding sponsors time and money is commendable but crying about it here is superfluous.

[Chris Allbee]

Rob,

I truly feel sorry for you, but you lied to the sponsors...We approach the sponsors from the angle that this is an educational experience and their single greatest benefit is the warm fuzzy feeling of giving back (again, that emotional crap!) and being able to write the services and donations off on their taxes (a little logic tossed in). We make no promise about this bringing in extra revenue to them, we are not a professional team out to make a profit and swap out three different ballcaps giving the after race interview. If your team was new and "didn't care" it was most likely a failure on your part as a leader to not be able to keep their interest and passions for the program high enough to get the job done (more scary emotional stuff here). You tried your hardest, but it seems that you may have neglected something very important, that your team was a group of human beings, not tools to do your bidding. I do not speak without logic, just not without emotion. You are describing complete and utter failure...and i refuse to believe that there aren't at least a handfull of people at any given university that wouldn't be psyched about building an FSAE car. Maybe you should look closer to home as to your team's failure...

[rjwoods77]

I sold the warm fuzzy and told them their was no real value to them doing it but my point was when you are stretched thin and you do come through it is letting them down which ever way you put it. Superfluous yes. Point being unless you are really ready dont go dragging people through it if it isnt going to come through. My hindsight opinion. Our guys and myself had plenty of late nights and sacrificing but all but 2 others were new. I wasnt a leader. Just got money designed and built the car. Our organization has had the same problems it has had since the team went downhill in 97. Cant really fix them without serious people. That isnt enough to do the work necessary. I'll stop talking about this now because it is getting tedious.

[ScottW]

-"I hate Rob Woods" tee shirts are now for sale

I suppose you sell a lot of these...

[Sam Zimmerman]

Originally posted by Rob Woods:
I gave up more than anyone should for this competition that I love.

I am sure that you are the only person in FSAE who sacrificed other course work, family, other projects, time and money for FSAE. I am also sure that you are the only person who has ever been disappointed in this competition. Poor Rob, I feel sorry for you.

btw, you might want to remove the tag line, "I might be stupid..." You don't really have to tell us that, we all know.

[Big Bird]

Geez there has been a lot of anger on these boards of late. As far as being a forum where people can feel they can openly propose and discuss different ideas it is really falling off the twig. I don't get on here too much any more – but when I do it seems the board is just jammed with utterly lazy design requests ("send me the formula to design a chassis"�), or stupid grandstanding and name-calling. No wonder the better contributors are giving up on this forum.

I think Rob raised some perfectly good points. But it seems that whenever Rob opens his mouth, it is an open opportunity for everyone to jump in for a good old-fashioned witch hunt. And it seems opinions aren't worth anything if you have had a couple of hiccups on the way.

I am going to open myself to all sorts of criticism by saying this, but I like Rob Woods. Sometimes I agree with what he is saying, sometimes I don't - but I value that can think outside the mainstream and that he is not afraid to share his ideas. If those ideas are foreign to us, then it is our right to question and argue them - and I know Rob will argue them back. But I also know he is the sort of guy who will see the value in a good argument, and as long as you don't stoop to petty name calling he will respect you for your input.

But if the instant response is to bag someone who has different ideas to our own, then we have all sunk to the level of that knob-end a couple of threads across from here who equates defending his argument with calling his opponents stubborn and ignorant mentals.

A worthy skill in engineering is being able to think outside of the square, and when you do so being able to put forth a reasonable argument to justify yourself. If you look closely, that is what a large part of this competition is all about. Rob thinks outside the square, and makes a damn good attempt to justify himself – and he gets crucified. I would rather hear from someone who is willing to shake our tightly held beliefs, than for us all to populate these forums coo-cooing in each others ears and merrily agreeing with whatever anyone else says.

As far as the main thread of this topic goes, I have no problem with the SAE increasing the price of their event. So what, you pay $1000 to be a part of it. For that we get the opportunity to compete in a truly international competition, we get the time and resources of a whole team of tireless officials who give their everything to help us, we get the opportunity to promote ourselves in front of top-line engineering companies, and we get access to a whole host of motorsport experts like Claude Rouelle, Steve Fox, Dick Golembiewski, David Gould, Terry Satchell, Pat Clarke, Ross Brawn, etc etc etc. We are getting a damn good deal here. How many international motorsport events are there where $1000 will get a team of 10-20 people through the gate for four days of competition?

I know Rob raised the whole "real world vs. FSAE world"� argument, and it seems a few have taken offence. I have been confronted by the whole "real world"� argument many times before, in relation to all sorts of minor whinges like how the Cost Report Rules don't reflect the real world, or that in the real world you don't worry about fuel economy in a race car, or that you don't have to design race cars for 195cm drivers. If the real world is so attractive then by all means embrace it – and when you get there you will find that in the real world novice designers don't get access to all kinds of cutting edge software, manufacturing resources and sponsors money to indulge in their own racecar fantasies.

Anyway, enough from me. Just give the SAE a break, or we'll all just end up pigeon-holed as a bunch of spoilt little brats.

[Corey H]

Originally posted by TG:
Hmmmm, Phoenix International Raceway has said they'd be more than happy donating the facilities and other things to host an event... a deal like that would cut down on the costs of having an event.

Are you with ASU? That would be amazing if they would host an event 2 hours away instead of 33! We, at the U of A, would help push for that and do whatever is needed to get it there!

[drivetrainUW-Platt]

Competition cost isn't just $1000.
Hotel/food/gas/trailer/vehicle for us is another $1500 with less then 10 people going.

We have given a $600 "donation" in the past, its pretty hard to know if you will be ready in May by the middle of October when you register for competition.

I understand things go up in price and something has to be done to limit the number of teams, but you show me one team that didn't learn more in the 4 days of compeition then they did the whole time building the car, even if they didn't get to compete, and I will retract the statement that some limitation to numbers needs to happen.

My first year ('04) our car never drove under its own power(brakes sucked)...sucks but we learned a lot and saw what competition was all about. Next year we dropped our $600 and didnt bring a car...thats our fault.

I would have been content with a few hundred dollar increase, but $400 is a big jump.

Argue all you want but remember big brother SAE is reading this forum, thats why I posted, you guys are just fighting like school girls at this point.