Porsche Cayman S ABS failure or something else?

[dende890]

Hello,

I have Cayman S 2007. Just bought it in mid Feb. with 11,000 miles.
I modified the suspension, brakes, etc…, but it is not important.
I mostly use it for tracks from VIR to W.Glen. It happened at the Watkins Glen when I pit after a session and the car cooled off slightly. I seat in the car with ignition off and pressed the brake pedal. To my surprise the pedal easily traveled to the floor. I started pumping the pedal and it became firm again. It happened that Spencer Cox from Farmbacher Loles was at the track with a client and he as a generous man bled the whole systems, inner and outer. He also made a suggestion that it is an ABS failure and I have to change it to the Racing Unit which is very costly. Now I know that the unit cost $10,675 without installation. Back to the Glen.
The pedal was firm again as it suppose to be. I went to another session and everything was okay during the run. But after pit in I turned the ignition off, wait a few minutes, pressed the brake pedal and to my surprise it surrenders again. After pumping it became firm again. I decided not to do anything this time and went to the track for the next session in an hour. I drive hard as usual but with alert senses towards the brakes. Everything was working perfect, however after 10-12 minutes I stated feeling that after the long straight where I reached 130+ mph the brake pedal started feeling like going some more distance then usual. After some less speed on shorter straights but still hard braking I felt the same and quit driving. With Spencer we went to the Porsche dealership which was with their team of GTs on the track at the time, they immediately connected the computer, checked the system but there was no any troubles found. By the way, ABS or PSM lights were never on. I drove with PSM “on” since I never driven Porsches yet and as I said it was my 3rd day with this car on track.
After that Spencer bled whole system again and I just drove 100 yards, stopped the car switched the ignition off and the pedal traveled to the floor again.
It was possible to pump the pedal to the firm point again.
There was another man on the track who made the suggestion that it is the main, master, cylinder problem.
I had nothing to do but abort the track sessions and go 270 miles back to New York, where I lived. There was no problem with braking on the high way; I even tried some on speed of 90 mph.
The main or master cylinder was changed in a couple of days.
I went to 2 days even at Shenandoah. Everything was perfect. I get use to the car more and more and switched the PSM off.
I drive in advanced groups at all the tracks and drive hard on the car.
I’m not really very clean with the turn in points and usually start turning earlier and thus increase the throttle application earlier in the turn to keep the speed and “fight with the car” often overseeing and braking hard, and short, and some mechanics thought that because of that the overheating happened. I personally wasn’t agreeing with them feeling that there is some other issue.
After the Shenandoah I immediately drove to Thunderbolt and next morning was able to drive 2 sessions without problems with PSM on. There were only 2 run groups, so 30 min on track, 30 min off. Quite a stress to the machine. After the third session I was sitting in the cooling off car and pressed the brake pedal and it was traveling to the floor again. After pumping became hard and then surrendered to the floor under the foot pressure.
I started the 4th session caution and turn off the PSM, but quit very soon feeling that the braking pedal is started surrendering slightly again after hard braking.

Next the Titanium Shims were added to my calipers to deal with excessive heat, the brake lines were bled thoroughly again with Motul RBF 600.

I went to the Glen, last year I had 39 track days, and on the third sessions everything was back again.
I quit and went home angry to the Porsche f… engineers.

I spent couple of days reading diff. articles about such problems with Caymans and now I’m looking for people who already dealt with it and want to know the result.

There are a few suggestions I picked up from what I read.

1. Change to expensive Bosch ABS Racing System.
2. To find some other less expensive Racing aftermarket ABS System.
3. Find the way to cool down the fluid before it gets to the original ABS.
4. To trade the car in for BMW M3 2006 which I had before and loved it.

So anybody, who already went through such problem and solve it successfully in any of the first 3 solutions, please share the experience. Help me and others who is already desperate and those who are going to get in to the troubles sooner or later in the future.

Or is it something different and not ABS at all?

Thank you,
Lev.

[dende890]

Hello,

I have Cayman S 2007. Just bought it in mid Feb. with 11,000 miles.
I modified the suspension, brakes, etc…, but it is not important.
I mostly use it for tracks from VIR to W.Glen. It happened at the Watkins Glen when I pit after a session and the car cooled off slightly. I seat in the car with ignition off and pressed the brake pedal. To my surprise the pedal easily traveled to the floor. I started pumping the pedal and it became firm again. It happened that Spencer Cox from Farmbacher Loles was at the track with a client and he as a generous man bled the whole systems, inner and outer. He also made a suggestion that it is an ABS failure and I have to change it to the Racing Unit which is very costly. Now I know that the unit cost $10,675 without installation. Back to the Glen.
The pedal was firm again as it suppose to be. I went to another session and everything was okay during the run. But after pit in I turned the ignition off, wait a few minutes, pressed the brake pedal and to my surprise it surrenders again. After pumping it became firm again. I decided not to do anything this time and went to the track for the next session in an hour. I drive hard as usual but with alert senses towards the brakes. Everything was working perfect, however after 10-12 minutes I stated feeling that after the long straight where I reached 130+ mph the brake pedal started feeling like going some more distance then usual. After some less speed on shorter straights but still hard braking I felt the same and quit driving. With Spencer we went to the Porsche dealership which was with their team of GTs on the track at the time, they immediately connected the computer, checked the system but there was no any troubles found. By the way, ABS or PSM lights were never on. I drove with PSM “on” since I never driven Porsches yet and as I said it was my 3rd day with this car on track.
After that Spencer bled whole system again and I just drove 100 yards, stopped the car switched the ignition off and the pedal traveled to the floor again.
It was possible to pump the pedal to the firm point again.
There was another man on the track who made the suggestion that it is the main, master, cylinder problem.
I had nothing to do but abort the track sessions and go 270 miles back to New York, where I lived. There was no problem with braking on the high way; I even tried some on speed of 90 mph.
The main or master cylinder was changed in a couple of days.
I went to 2 days even at Shenandoah. Everything was perfect. I get use to the car more and more and switched the PSM off.
I drive in advanced groups at all the tracks and drive hard on the car.
I’m not really very clean with the turn in points and usually start turning earlier and thus increase the throttle application earlier in the turn to keep the speed and “fight with the car” often overseeing and braking hard, and short, and some mechanics thought that because of that the overheating happened. I personally wasn’t agreeing with them feeling that there is some other issue.
After the Shenandoah I immediately drove to Thunderbolt and next morning was able to drive 2 sessions without problems with PSM on. There were only 2 run groups, so 30 min on track, 30 min off. Quite a stress to the machine. After the third session I was sitting in the cooling off car and pressed the brake pedal and it was traveling to the floor again. After pumping became hard and then surrendered to the floor under the foot pressure.
I started the 4th session caution and turn off the PSM, but quit very soon feeling that the braking pedal is started surrendering slightly again after hard braking.

Next the Titanium Shims were added to my calipers to deal with excessive heat, the brake lines were bled thoroughly again with Motul RBF 600.

I went to the Glen, last year I had 39 track days, and on the third sessions everything was back again.
I quit and went home angry to the Porsche f… engineers.

I spent couple of days reading diff. articles about such problems with Caymans and now I’m looking for people who already dealt with it and want to know the result.

There are a few suggestions I picked up from what I read.

1. Change to expensive Bosch ABS Racing System.
2. To find some other less expensive Racing aftermarket ABS System.
3. Find the way to cool down the fluid before it gets to the original ABS.
4. To trade the car in for BMW M3 2006 which I had before and loved it.

So anybody, who already went through such problem and solve it successfully in any of the first 3 solutions, please share the experience. Help me and others who is already desperate and those who are going to get in to the troubles sooner or later in the future.

Or is it something different and not ABS at all?

Thank you,
Lev.

[jm1495]

Can this be moved to off topic?

[exFSAE]

Probably just from living in Crooklyn.

[J. Vinella]

Let this be a lesson to never purchase a car that the owner said was only raced a few times.

To give some constructive feedback. Sounds like you are boiling your brake fluid. You said that you finally put some quality brake fluid in the system "Motul RBF 600" and the system was good for 39 track days. Then it came back.

Brake fluid absorbs moisture and the boiling point drops. Racing brake fluids are great right out of the can but like any brake fluid they turn "wet" overtime, that is why on real racecars the fluid is changed often.

I might have totally misinterpreted this section so all above might be useless: "I went to the Glen, last year I had 39 track days, and on the third sessions everything was back again."

Second to move this to off topic.

[dende890]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by J. Vinella:
Let this be a lesson to never purchase a car that the owner said was only raced a few times.

To give some constructive feedback. Sounds like you are boiling your brake fluid. You said that you finally put some quality brake fluid in the system "Motul RBF 600" and the system was good for 39 track days. Then it came back.


Brake fluid absorbs moisture and the boiling point drops. Racing brake fluids are great right out of the can but like any brake fluid they turn "wet" overtime, that is why on real racecars the fluid is changed often.

I might have totally misinterpreted this section so all above might be useless: "I went to the Glen, last year I had 39 track days, and on the third sessions everything was back again."
You read the article without attention to the matter.
In the very first sentence I stated that:" I have Cayman S 2007. Just bought it in mid Feb. with 11,000 miles.
In 1/3 of the article it said:"it was my 3rd day with this car on track."
It was M3 2006 that went through 39 days of track:"BMW M3 2006 which I had before and loved it."
This sentence really not so good and bewildered you: "I went to the Glen, last year I had 39 track days, and on the third sessions everything was back again."
During these unfortunate days on track we changed at least 4 times barking fluid and always used the best ones, you think Spencer Cox from Farnbacher Loles knows less then you about fluids, or I who had 39 track days last year had no idea about the brakes maintenance.

And I was asking very clear the solution from people EXPERIENCED ALREADY IN SOLVING these 3
options:
"1. Change to expensive Bosch ABS Racing System.
2. To find some other less expensive Racing aftermarket ABS System.
3. Find the way to cool down the fluid before it gets to the original ABS."



Second to move this to off topic. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
To move this topic anywhere is difficult for me because tell you the truth, it is a very complicated site to navigate, for me at least.
Send me the link please where to move it.

I have my own business web site and it is extremely simple to navigate, concise in info and even a blind man will easily find the way there, but I was perfecting it for months and months.
Look for yourself, it is :
www.russian-antique.com

All the bast to the critics.
Lev
Russian, like you like to say in America:"F...n emigrant."

[dende890]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DART-CG:
Hmm, first of all you should be aware that the "f.." Porsche engineers didn't design the brake system for the Cayman and Boxter
At the moment I finish my internship and diploma thesis at Porsche's suspension and brake development in Weissach and we only make suggestions to Brembo and the real designer Valment in Finnland as Porsche concentrates primarily on the development of the brake system of the 911, Panamera, Cayenne, racing derivates and the LMP prototypes.

Concerning your problems with the brake system I suppose that you have (as already mentioned) problems with your brake fluid OR even more with the brake disc.
First of all I would try another racing fluid like Castrol SRF. The Motul stuffed isn't recommended very often.
My personal guess is that you have some serious problems with disc coning. The Cayman is originally designed for "lifestyle" purposes, not for the racetrack like a 911. This means that your discs aren't designed for racing intentions, too.
If you use the steel brakes instead of the ceramic PCCB-dics your discs will expand in a 3D manner which ends in disc coning. This is no major problem in performance as your pads will compensate this motion to a certain degree. But when you cool down your brakes during you turns the disc will move back to the original position a few milimeters away from the brake pads. Thats why you have to pump the pads back to the disc.
When racing on track you have huge gradii of temperature, for example from the start and finish corner to the end of Watkins Glens' back straight. I think this is why you even feel the "long pedal" during driving, too.
My suggestion: New (racing) brake discs or the PCCB ones.

Another suggestion on driving itself:
Why the hell do you perform an early apex when you have problems with the turn in point?? It is exactly the wrong way and puts you into some serious risks (which you already described)!
In your case aiming for a late apex would lead to a mucher safer track out and you could gradually shift your turn-in-point forward to get familiar with the limit and to aim for an optimal track out of the corner to carry way more speed.
And despite reducing lap time you would treat your tires and brakes much better than you do now </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In the very second sentence:" I modified the suspension, brakes, etc…, but it is not important."
Second, the car sold under the name "Porsche" and thus I don't care who were really designed the brakes.

I also was not not asking for SUGGESTIONS.

I was asking very clear for the solution from people EXPERIENCED ALREADY IN SOLVING these 3
options:
"1. Change to expensive Bosch ABS Racing System.
2. To find some other less expensive Racing aftermarket ABS System.
3. Find the way to cool down the fluid before it gets to the original ABS."

About the way I'm driving is not really the matter to you, I'll fix my style.

[Zac]

if you aren't looking for suggestions what are you doing here?

This is a forum for starving college students that build their own formula style race cars as a design project. I doubt you are going to find too many people here that have experience with upgrading the abs system on a $60,000 German sportscar.

I doubt that the soft pedal issues you are experiencing are related to PSM or ABS. Switching to an aftermarket system is probably overkill/a waste of money.

With regards to #3, adapting to a less hamfisted driving style will probably help quite a bit. So would keeping fresh racing fluid in the brake system.

[frenzy]

hey "DART-CG", during my time at the EZW I was told that informations on outsourced parts are somewhat "confidential"

[dende890]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DART-CG:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by dende890:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DART-CG:
Hmm, first of all you should be aware that the "f.." Porsche engineers didn't design the brake system for the Cayman and Boxter
At the moment I finish my internship and diploma thesis at Porsche's suspension and brake development in Weissach and we only make suggestions to Brembo and the real designer Valment in Finnland as Porsche concentrates primarily on the development of the brake system of the 911, Panamera, Cayenne, racing derivates and the LMP prototypes.

Concerning your problems with the brake system I suppose that you have (as already mentioned) problems with your brake fluid OR even more with the brake disc.
First of all I would try another racing fluid like Castrol SRF. The Motul stuffed isn't recommended very often.
My personal guess is that you have some serious problems with disc coning. The Cayman is originally designed for "lifestyle" purposes, not for the racetrack like a 911. This means that your discs aren't designed for racing intentions, too.
If you use the steel brakes instead of the ceramic PCCB-dics your discs will expand in a 3D manner which ends in disc coning. This is no major problem in performance as your pads will compensate this motion to a certain degree. But when you cool down your brakes during you turns the disc will move back to the original position a few milimeters away from the brake pads. Thats why you have to pump the pads back to the disc.
When racing on track you have huge gradii of temperature, for example from the start and finish corner to the end of Watkins Glens' back straight. I think this is why you even feel the "long pedal" during driving, too.
My suggestion: New (racing) brake discs or the PCCB ones.

Another suggestion on driving itself:
Why the hell do you perform an early apex when you have problems with the turn in point?? It is exactly the wrong way and puts you into some serious risks (which you already described)!
In your case aiming for a late apex would lead to a mucher safer track out and you could gradually shift your turn-in-point forward to get familiar with the limit and to aim for an optimal track out of the corner to carry way more speed.
And despite reducing lap time you would treat your tires and brakes much better than you do now </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In the very second sentence:" I modified the suspension, brakes, etc…, but it is not important."
Second, the car sold under the name "Porsche" and thus I don't care who were really designed the brakes.

I also was not not asking for SUGGESTIONS.

I was asking very clear for the solution from people EXPERIENCED ALREADY IN SOLVING these 3
options:
"1. Change to expensive Bosch ABS Racing System.
2. To find some other less expensive Racing aftermarket ABS System.
3. Find the way to cool down the fluid before it gets to the original ABS."

About the way I'm driving is not really the matter to you, I'll fix my style. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>



\annoyed mode on

Dear Mr. PuSsy Mode-on. Why did I just waste 15 minutes of my life to give you a hint at the real source of your brake-related problem to stop you from wasting money for a unreliable racing ABS many teams here went desperate with?
Is asking if your problem “ is something different and not ABS-related at all” not the same as asking for suggestions? Why did you log on to this forum? What did you expect from students and engineers like us?

If Mr Cox saw your switched on PSM button and then gave you the advice to buy some beautiful pink underwear to solve the brake pedal problem you certainly would have logged on www.pink-lady.com/forum only to grumble at all girls who try to give you a more expedient advice while bragging with your great skills and money.
I think there are enough forums which suit better to you. Enough time wasted.


\annoyed mode off </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

First of all I got to this forum by mistake.
I'm an immigrant from Russia, 58+ years old, not a computer wizard and I have difficulties with many web sites. They are done by young people and quite difficult to navigate there.

I saw that there is a discussion on this forum about the ABS system and by my Russian nature simply thought that those people are interested in difficult and rare problems with such systems.
I also thought that American young people similar to Russians and ready to help a man in troubles.
I was mistaken.

To call me the Mr. Pussy Mode did not make me angry, just made me laugh.
To call a man who emigrated from his country at age 37 with kids, wife and mother. The man who lived very prosperous life in Russia but was always under Government investigations and decided to forefight a 4 bedroom and 3 bedroom apartments in the best location in the city of 1,500,000 people,
2 cars, very successful garment business, hundreds of friends, relatives, the mistresses and a lot more and moved to USA having only $360 for the family of 4, no friends or relatives to help.
It was prohibited in the Soviet Union emigrate with more then $90 for a family member and all you possessed became the State property. In other words you lose, emigrating, everything, all that you have and lose FOREVER.
They take your citizenship and you never can come back to Russia again. It was before 1991 when emigration became not an act of your country treason and you were not counted an enemy of the State. You who grew up across 7-11 store know nothing about life.
You brained washed mind think that Russia was a piece of shit and people were wearing animal pelts.
Before I married at age 29 I fucked more then 200 girls, not prostitutes like many of you, no, girls and most of them were very nice looking girls, we had no prostitution then. I had friends from city biggest crooks and gangsters to very intelligent professors of Math. I lived always a very adventures life. Traveling on businesses all over Russia which was 4 times bigger then USA then.
I was in the Army for 2 years and it is not like American Army with comfort and visits to the cities. Not talking that I was in Soviet prison where you would not survive for more then 3 days. I finished 5.5 year college of construction engineering with PhD. I was 18 years old, boxing, won 15 fights and lost 2 out of 17, one I lost to the guy who was 27 years old and one fight lost because of injury. If I punched a guy about 200 pbs. during the numerous street fights, he almost had no chance to withstand it. I took a podium in 1975 in all Russia Auto Rally where out of 32 equipages in our class 1 was killed during the racing and only 8 could finish, so harsh was the 1600 miles in 2 days on the cars. I made almost a fortune in Russian measures out of different enterprises during the years I lived there and this is why the Government wants me to be in prison. And this is why I eventually decided to leave despite loosing everything.
I came to this country at 37 and couldn’t even ask what is the time now. No English what so ever.
Now I read Dostoevsky in English and writing everything myself.
I have my business web site which is perfect, you will never be lost there, it is so simple, go to www.russian-antique.com
I raised 3 sons; they all have finished colleges and having their own business drive BMW 335 xi 2008, Range Rover Sport 2007, Porsche Turbo 911 2008, and we just sold BMW M5 2007, not counting my Cayman S for which my 2 oldest sons (27, 26 years old) gave me $20,000 towards the purchase in respect and as a birthday present, and later bought me 2 Cobra racing seats.
I wish you have 3 sons and they will respect you so much.
Sure I’m a Pussy.
I don’t have time to list what I have done in my life; you will be listening with open mouth for days and days. I lived in Germany where I managed to revitalize a dying business which now is quite prosperous.

Sure, I’m a pussy, but in the size that can swallow a modern huge aircraft carrier.

Lev.