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Thread: Motorsport or Design?

  1. #21
    My, my we're a hyper bunch! It's nice to see some calming, moderating voices.

    Here's the part of Pat's column I'd like to talk about:

    FS cars are generally unattractive, narrow focus vehicles that are not particularly exciting to watch on track. If you want to see exciting motorsport, try find a short dirt oval where they are running winged sprint cars, or possible the purest and most intense motorsport of all, speedway motorcycles. 4 laps, 4 riders, balls out and all over in about 60 seconds! Thatís exciting!
    I agree 100% on the winged sprint cars, and I want to see a speedway motorcycle race in person someday.

    In an attempt to hijack this thread ;-) I'd like to say that I really enjoy watching Formula SAE/Student cars. Where else can I see such a broad range of vehicle behaviors in one location? The best cars & drivers are a joy to watch. The crisp roll and yaw transients, braking on the verge of lockup (with correct brake balance) and the quickness of these cars in a slalom are all very impressive. Seeing a well-practiced driver learn the endurance course in the first 3-4 laps and then be a model of consistency for the remaining circuits is something special. The rest of the field exhibits all sorts of less-desireable characteristics, each of which is also interesting and fun to pick out: excessive roll gradients, poor damping of the vertical tire mode, K&C-induced stabilty issues, visible suspension compliance, etc. Of course, some drivers/cars are just plain slow and uninteresting--should have finished building the car sooner and done some testing and driver training!
    Dr. Edward M. Kasprzak
    President: EMK Vehicle Dynamics, LLC
    Associate: Milliken Research Associates, Inc.
    Co-Director: FSAE Tire Test Consortium
    Lecturer: SAE Industrial Lecture Program
    FSAE Design Judge

  2. #22
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    I was thinking about the top FSAE teams and was trying to figure out what their equivalent opposite would be.
    Their cars are well built, their teams well run, and overall are very professional.
    All good things.

    So I guess their opposite (in the USA) would a be a University '24 Hours of Lemons' team.
    Rusty heaps of junk, driven by armature weekend endurance drivers (and a few pro-teams having fun)!
    Full on racing with next to no design (for most of the cars I've seen at their races).
    Exactly the kind of thing that no sane Uni would sponsor but very rewarding in it's own way.

    -William

  3. #23
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    I think the responsibility for the subject in question lies in the hands of the respective advisers and/or team leaders for the university teams. What is more important? Winning the competition or the education/well being of the students?

    Also, FSAE is much more fun than professional motorsports. Sure you can get paid to work on racecars, but you have to answer to many bosses (many without an engineering clue), make compromises for the sponsor, and can't stretch your creative juices. In most pro motorsports, its the dollar over winning.
    "Man, I need to practice more!" - Kenny Wallace
    "Try not to have a good time... this is supposed to be educational." - Charles M Schulz
    -OptimumG 2005-2006
    -Turner Motorsports 2008-2009
    -Black Swan Racing 2010 & 2011 Team and Driver's Champions
    -HPD Race Engineer 2011-2014
    -Currently Freelance Data/Race Engineer

  4. #24
    Originally posted by Will M:

    Full on racing with next to no design (for most of the cars I've seen at their races).
    Quite the contrary. Le Mans cars are designed far ahead than the spec cars that you see on Formula One. The Audis pull higher G's than the F1's and that too with a diesel engine. There is a lot of design that goes into getting the smallest of components right, say injectors. They work at pressures exceeding 3500Bar and are designed to work the whole 24hrs.

    Le Mans has teams that are equally or more competitive than the F1 temas. It is all about the media publicity that you get. F1 is portrayed more like the WWF while Le Mans is depicted as a kick-boxing tournament. Again, that's just a personal opinion.

    Regards,
    Nikhil

    Hint: The real fight is in kick-boxing!

  5. #25
    Originally posted by Nicky:
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Will M:

    Full on racing with next to no design (for most of the cars I've seen at their races).
    Quite the contrary. Le Mans cars are designed far ahead than the spec cars that you see on Formula One. The Audis pull higher G's than the F1's and that too with a diesel engine. There is a lot of design that goes into getting the smallest of components right, say injectors. They work at pressures exceeding 3500Bar and are designed to work the whole 24hrs.

    Le Mans has teams that are equally or more competitive than the F1 temas. It is all about the media publicity that you get. F1 is portrayed more like the WWF while Le Mans is depicted as a kick-boxing tournament. Again, that's just a personal opinion.

    Regards,
    Nikhil

    Hint: The real fight is in kick-boxing! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


    Nicky,

    Will is referring to the 24 Hours of Lemons. This is very, very different from the 24 of Le Mans.

    Things like the diesel powered Audi, and interesting fueled Aston Martins (ran iso-butanol) exist and GT cars compete within seconds of their lives against each other at Le mans. What you speak of is high-dollar, high visibility racing.

    24 Hours of Lemons requires all entries to be costed under $500. This may seem like the cars will be boring to watch.
    However, a quick look into the Lemons culture reveal things that are shocking, confusing and sometimes - repulsive. Vehicles exist like the MRolla, which is a two engined MR2 rear half of the car and front half Carolla. The 3rd gen Camaro run by the infamous team of Pratt & Miller employees which had a NASCAR cup car motor making ~700hp put in it, bending the rules in half and back. Another worthy mention is the pop-up camper driven by a man known as 'speedycop'. My favorite so far is the Cessna plane that speedycop is about to enter into a race... "The Spirit of Lemons".

    Here's the plane/car/thing itself:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2VntYQDw90

    And

    a clip of one of the races:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRGdjOMxaRE


    As you can see, the only real design involved is the comical livery and accessories adorned by each team.
    Kettering University Vehicle Dynamics
    Formula SAE 2010 - 2015
    Clean Snowmobile Powertrain 2012 - 2015

    Boogityland 2015 - Present

  6. #26
    Oops!! Never knew something like that ever existed. It's hilarious though.

  7. #27
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    Oh I have nothing but the highest respect for 24H Le Mans.
    But there is something that appeals to me about 24H Lemons.

    I think we're off topic though.

    -William

  8. #28
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    Speaking of sprint cars....

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...PFz9DY&feature=share

    ...try explaining all that is going on with those cars jeez!!!

  9. #29
    Apologies for hijacking.

    I see more and more ex FSAE people in LeMons and Chumpcar every time I do one of these events. They are actually great venues to test your creativity and engineering relatively unchecked. The rules are very wide open, judge corruption is encouraged, rules cheating is expected (though the People's Curse always looms) and there is probably no better seat time per dollar value out there.

    Now, back to our customarily hubristic topics.

  10. #30
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    Although I think the OP wanted to talk about what the compitition should be I just noticed this article on the SAE web site.

    http://www.sae.org/servlets/pr...MULA&RELEASE_ID=2021

    It has this gem at the end.
    "The Formula SAE competitions are engineering design competitions and not motorsports events. Thinking otherwise is dangerous."

    -William

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