So the Burning Question?????????

[Ben C-M]

itmstgofast - you're acting as if the american teams are the only ones that have this difficulty. I'm pretty sure every team is in the exact same boat, and i'm sure that the most wealthy teams are the ones that spend the most time searching for sponsorship. None of the richest teams had their sponsorships simply fall into their laps and i'll bet they all spend alot of time maintaining and searching for new sponsors. Given that the event is essentially a buisness, searching for sponsorships should be one of the primary goals for a team and most teams allocate next to nothing (in terms of resources and people) to getting money.

The teams that compete in an overseas competition make alot of sacrifices to scrape together the money to fund it. For example, I'm pretty sure RMIT would have had an even better car if they'd decided to spend the tens of thousands of dollars needed to compete in the US on their car. I dont' want to speak for them but I'd be surprised if any of the RMIT team members felt they made a bad decision. The same goes for any team that competes overseas, which is why they keep coming back and competing in a number of competitions year after year.

I think it's sad that the top american teams don't compete outside the US, but only because i think it's unfortunate that they are missing out on the biggest rewards that the FSAE program has to offer. Every one of us has spent countless hours slaving over designs, fabrication and testing of our cars and the biggest reward is seeing your car compete against other teams, learning from other schools designs and hopefully getting people looking at what you've done and taking something good away from your ideas and implementations. The more opportunities you have to do that the better, personally and for the team.

I think that very soon we'll see that the only teams considered "top teams" are the ones that have competed in multiple competitions - purely because those teams are the ones that are going to be ahead of the curve and will have proven themselves against more then just their own backyard.

[RacingManiac]

I'll throw in the same 2 Canadian cents as the previous UofT poster, about my experiences with the 2 events that we go to.

After participating in 4 FSAE(east) and 2 FS, I can see the sentiments for the US teams about "others come to play in our backyard, so why should we go". But as Geoff said that is not going to be the case forever, and much like the money situation that might be impeding some US teams to make the trek, the same may eventually hit those who are currently doing multiple comp. Heck every year we are stretching our budget to meet the need to spend for the UK comp(winning the free entry helps, as that takes a huge chuck out). All of our members paid for their trip(lucky that most of us were working on industry internship this 2005-2006 season, while maintaining the role on the team to build the car). But as a learning experience, or a life experience, to compete in other competiton on other continents is definitely worthwhile. While the "best" tend to travel, being in different comp do let you see the very different design philosophy of the different competitors. I think though to some US schools that this is not the "goal" for their FSAE program, rather they are there to compete and win, and as such the big field and tight competition of the original FSAE is the only one that fits the bill to justify that goal.

As our friend from Waterloo said though, "The teams that really work hard on the car owe it to themselves to run at least 2 events". I think letting 2 different set of judges(US and UK is probably completely different) can get you broader feedback to think about, and running one of your 2 competition on international stage might make the season more interesting.

My personal comparison between the 2 comp:

Design event in US is more indepth, and probably more abstract at times. The fact that you don't get to talk much about what you did but what questions they bombarded you with in the first round is kinda irritating. UK is more about your car, which I like, and I find to be a lot less pressured, and the much longer presentation time(probably due to the fact that they dont need to do 140 cars in UK) gives you better chance to present your points.

Dynamic event is I think the strongest suit of the East event now. The MPG tarmac is amazing, and if it weren't for the weather I think we had a good chance to be faster. The track at MPG is also faster, which makes for a more interesting specticle(more on that later). UK's go kart track/taxi way/concrete provided interesting setup challenge compare to the smooth US surface, while UK's track organizer's excessive slowing of the course is the biggest downfall of the track. Though from a photographer's perspective being on a track with real backdrop makes for better pictures....

Weather is much the same in UK and May in Michigan. Unpredictable and rain is always looming.

Pit Facilities is another strong suit of UK comp. Barring the tent collapse incident in 2004, the fact that they provided enclosed tent marquees makes it a lot better than the current first-come, first-serve tarmac/gravel/grass with your own tent situation at MPG. Both grounds has curfew limit but the UK one is more flexible than MPG(not that we needed either). Though I like the idea of having various static events in the massive buildings at MPG...

Spectator and how they are presented with a show I think is another strong suit for UK. "Grand stands" are relatively close to the track and there are a lot of spots people can see the car running(other than the fact that they are running too slowly for my liking), and for me taking pics I don't need to be in the dynamic area to get a good shot(though I still did bag a "media pass" to do it during enduro). In US comp if it weren't for the organizers allowing me to go in to the dynamic area during our team's enduro run I would've seen nothing. With the longest lens(I use a 300mm x 1.5 crop = 450mm) I can still only get a tiny car in my frame when I am not in the dynamic area. I can only imagine what the people sitting outside feel about the view. And UK comp has an interesting commentator interviewing drivers and crew, making the event feels more like a specticle.

Organization is the best part about the US comp, though with the moving to MPG for first time somewhat affected that. The schedules are maintained for the most time, and locations for the events are clearly labeled and no confusion(all of those that were at FS2006 will know what I mean), this part, with due respect to UK organizers, is really lacking in UK.

The competitors, US comp has much more to see because, there are much more cars. But FS has always been more interesting in some particular cars. The crazy electronic systems of school like Lulea, the high standard of the composite work of a lot of the European schools, and crazy light Delft, and the phenomenal entries by both TU Graz and TU Munich this year definitely alters my perception of what FSAE car can potentially be like. This is not to say US cars aren't good, but Europeans are taking this game to a very different level....and this is on top of the very competitive teams from Europe like UK's own Oxford Brooke and Finland's Helsinki(best looker on track from my point of view with a camera )

The experiences from both competition were vastly different as well, Detroit being our first comp every year means there are very little time to enjoy being there, its always rushing and working and presenting. In UK is a lot more relaxed. Just this aspect alone makes it a different competition for us, and probably why some oversea teams always goes back(I am sure Dartmouth guys will agree).

As you can see though, after that long and useless post, that you can't really pick a preference. Of course winning FSAE still has its prestige, but just the competition experience in general there are very little to pick and choose. So why not go to both....

I am very thankful for our business team who work their collective asses off to find the money for us to do this year in and year out. Its nothing short of amazing.

[Kyle Walther]

Ben C-M
I didn't say that every american school has it hard? Answerforsomeguy said he wanted an explanation so i gave him ours.. not everyones ours. i'm sure that every school has certain difficulties they have to overcome. Thats why this program is so rewarding.

[Greg H]

As a member of the team who didn't go to Australia in 2004, but had to work on the 2005 car, I can just say it takes a lot more planning than we had time for given the short notice of out entry. Should you decide to travel overseas, you will probably have to dedicate a second experienced team to modify the old car while the first experienced team designs and begins building the next car. It would have been nice to have some modifications planned ahead of time rather than just making quick fixes. That also leads to a lack of good testing since it's winter just before the Austrailian competition.

Another thing to think about is that all of that money used in travel could be used for something to make the car go faster like better telemetry, testing, and dyno equipment.

The team is going overseas again soon, but I promise the experience gained from our last trip will help them avoid the same mistakes as last time, and make continued trips more frequent. This may mean restructuring of the design and build process, which can be seen as a major obstacle.

And no, these problems do not just apply to American teams, but it seems teams that have always had to come over here already have this figured out since that is what they've always done just to compete.

I think the best way to promote teams going overseas would be to get them more informed of the benefits and help them overcome the common obstacles that every team has in traveling.

[GSpeedR]

Originally posted by Answerforsomeguy:
bornlazy: Obviously I made a point because some people did understand it.

"Most teams are not in the situation of Helsinki, RMIT and UWA"�. So what you are trying to say is that America's top teams are either too lazy or incompetent to make an effort to compete worldwide. Because grouping the above three teams in with Oxford Brookes and Toronto tells me that a country's top teams can go out get the necessary funding, make the required sacrifices and showcase their car to the world

Or do you mean that the top American teams that have existed for nearly a decade longer then all these other internationals and have yet to develop the resource base necessary to do what these other teams do are somehow not in the same situation. I would agree. The Americans teams are in a situation 10 times better.

And to say that you can't get money because of the number of teams is another poor argument. Unfortunately I don't have the time to show ratio of GDP versus # of FSAE teams per country

In terms of $Million
1 United States 12,485,725
2 Japan 4,571,314
3 Germany 2,797,343
4 People's Republic of China 2,224,811
5 United Kingdom 2,201,473
6 France 2,105,864
7 Italy 1,766,160
8 Canada 1,130,208
15 Australia 707,992
32 Finland 193,491

But I leave you with the following numbers to crunch. Other then the UK you would need to have 10 times the number of teams in any other country. The only one where you probably do have 10 times the number of teams is Finland.

You should read the Business section of your newspaper a little more often bornlazy but as your name implies I guess that's not unexpected.

Can anyone come up with a half-decent excuse for the American teams as to why they don't travel.
What has been used already
1) Money
2) Competitiveness of the other comps
3) The need of summer jobs (Because obviously students in Australia, Canada, Finland and the UK don't need jobs)
4) Everyone else already comes to the US

And each one of these arguments have been countered.
Is there one good argument that can't be easily countered by a little economic knowledge or statistics or common sense. Why are the most thoughtful arguments coming from non-Americans and are then countered with "Because"� or "ALL CAPS"� or "We're better"� as if those are well laid out counter-points. I know the majority of people on this forum are engineers but stating "MONEY IS AN ISSUE"� as the main point to our argument is kind of immature and shows lack of thought.

Scheduling. I don't think an American team will ever go to FAustralasia (which is IMO the the competition I would most like to go to), because the competition occurs during the designing/building stage of our cars. FStudent and FJapan are possibilities and you will see more American teams attending them (Hint hint). Only one at a time each year, tough; going to 3 competitions takes more money then a couple of teams budgets put together and you can't be shipping your car back and forth by boat all year or you'll miss all your testing...I suppose you can go to many competitions and suck at all of them. I'm sorry but I don't care how many pots you scrub or how much pot you sell, unless you box yourself up with the car you can't afford to go to 3 or more competitions either financially or time-wise. If you go to 3 or more then I'm going to hide my car in your crate...along with a few lackeys to do suspension setup.

-Respondstosomeguy

[Beatle]

Originally posted by DohertyWins!:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Answerforsomeguy:
bornlazy: Obviously I made a point because some people did understand it.

"Most teams are not in the situation of Helsinki, RMIT and UWA"�. So what you are trying to say is that America's top teams are either too lazy or incompetent to make an effort to compete worldwide. Because grouping the above three teams in with Oxford Brookes and Toronto tells me that a country's top teams can go out get the necessary funding, make the required sacrifices and showcase their car to the world

Or do you mean that the top American teams that have existed for nearly a decade longer then all these other internationals and have yet to develop the resource base necessary to do what these other teams do are somehow not in the same situation. I would agree. The Americans teams are in a situation 10 times better.

And to say that you can't get money because of the number of teams is another poor argument. Unfortunately I don't have the time to show ratio of GDP versus # of FSAE teams per country

In terms of $Million
1 United States 12,485,725
2 Japan 4,571,314
3 Germany 2,797,343
4 People's Republic of China 2,224,811
5 United Kingdom 2,201,473
6 France 2,105,864
7 Italy 1,766,160
8 Canada 1,130,208
15 Australia 707,992
32 Finland 193,491

But I leave you with the following numbers to crunch. Other then the UK you would need to have 10 times the number of teams in any other country. The only one where you probably do have 10 times the number of teams is Finland.

You should read the Business section of your newspaper a little more often bornlazy but as your name implies I guess that's not unexpected.

Can anyone come up with a half-decent excuse for the American teams as to why they don't travel.
What has been used already
1) Money
2) Competitiveness of the other comps
3) The need of summer jobs (Because obviously students in Australia, Canada, Finland and the UK don't need jobs)
4) Everyone else already comes to the US

And each one of these arguments have been countered.
Is there one good argument that can't be easily countered by a little economic knowledge or statistics or common sense. Why are the most thoughtful arguments coming from non-Americans and are then countered with "Because"� or "ALL CAPS"� or "We're better"� as if those are well laid out counter-points. I know the majority of people on this forum are engineers but stating "MONEY IS AN ISSUE"� as the main point to our argument is kind of immature and shows lack of thought.

Scheduling. I don't think an American team will ever go to FAustralasia (which is IMO the the competition I would most like to go to), because the competition occurs during the designing/building stage of our cars. FStudent and FJapan are possibilities and you will see more American teams attending them (Hint hint). Only one at a time each year, tough; going to 3 competitions takes more money then a couple of teams budgets put together and you can't be shipping your car back and forth by boat all year or you'll miss all your testing...I suppose you can go to many competitions and suck at all of them. I'm sorry but I don't care how many pots you scrub or how much pot you sell, unless you box yourself up with the car you can't afford to go to 3 or more competitions either financially or time-wise. If you go to 3 or more then I'm going to hide my car in your crate...along with a few lackeys to do suspension setup.

-Respondstosomeguy </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Answerforsomeguy, did some american wrong you as a child? why dont you get a little more upset about this, that seems like a good idea huh? oh and while your at it make sure you include more excellent arguements such as GDP versus # of FSAE teams, you really made a solid point with that one. If that fails just keep telling us we are lazy and incompetent, people tend to respond well to that.

As a member of an american team who is traveling internationally for the first time this year I can tell you exactly what the obstacles American teams face are (and they are almost certainly that same exact obstacles as everyone else)
1) Money, it cost us just about 25K to ship our car, thats 25k we normally dont have. At the end of FSAE East we are usually about 3-4k in debt. This year we got some new sponsorships and some very large donations so we can afford it at a minimal cost to ourselves.
2) Classes and building/design. We do not have an excessively large team (again probably due to the laziness and/or incompetence) and therefore we cannot ship half our team (there wouldnt be enough people to unload the car), while the other half works on the next car. Obviously classes are a problem because your typically suppose to be on campus, much less the same continent while they are going on.

As for the competivness of other comps. Germany seems to of had a large turnout of excellent teams this year and it seems to be the competition which is evolving at the fastest rate. Does that mean I am not going to go because Im worried about getting beaten... nope. I am confident that my team could be competitive in any event, and even if we didnt, I still went to Germany and raced a car for a few days... there are worse fates.

Big Bird, my comment was not directed at you, merely at a general attitude forming in this thread. I guess since I failed to "take it like a man" its my fault for jumping to conclusions. I have met you in person and I am pleased to say that you represent RMIT well and seem to embrace to idea of FSAE better than most. I hope you didnt take my comment to heart, it wasnt meant to insult anyone.

[Big Bird]

Beatle, no offence taken mate. The value of these forums is in the "contest of ideas", and that is why I keep involved in them. Occasionally I might come across a little confrontational, but sometimes we have to be a bit that way to get to the bottom of someone else's opinion.

From what I know of the FSAE community, most are mature and interested enough to know that we can all learn from each others ideas - even when they don't necessarily agree with our own. (In fact, we often learn more from ideas that are foreign to our own. There was a thread on here about 4WD in FSAE that made me justify in my own mind exactly why I didn't like it, and in the process gave me much deeper knowledge of driver control and what is going on in the front tyre contact patch).

This contest attracts the sharpest minds of each engineering school that competes in it. I'd think it really lame if all we aimed to do was be agreeable on everything. Some peoples' idea of Utopia might be where we all smiled sweetly at each other, held hands and skipped off merrily into the distance. Personally I couldn't think of a duller existence.

I do think it a shame when people won't sign their names to their posts. I do like to know who I am corresponding with - but I'll respect the decision if someone doesn't wish to be known.

So by all means, if anyone thinks I am off target or out of line I have no problem being told so. Go nuts. If we have the chance to meet in future I'll gladly show my appreciation by shaking hands and sharing a beer.

Cheers all,

[Big Bird]

p.s. Michael Royce, thanks for your input, and your ongoing support of the event. And Frank, yes I would dearly love to do the German event (while I am still eligible to do so?!) Eventually though I am going to have to confront the issue of running out of courses to do at uni, and think about getting a real job. Urgh!

[GSpeedR]

I do think it a shame when people won't sign their names to their posts. I do like to know who I am corresponding with - but I'll respect the decision if someone doesn't wish to be known.

Beatle's name is Brian and he's a bigger asshole in person than he is on the forums. I've tried working with the guy on numerous occaisions but he has offended me on every intellectual (and physical) level and I simply won't stand for it any longer.

-Chri$

[Beatle]

Originally posted by DohertyWins!:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I do think it a shame when people won't sign their names to their posts. I do like to know who I am corresponding with - but I'll respect the decision if someone doesn't wish to be known.

Beatle's name is Brian and he's a bigger asshole in person than he is on the forums.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Its true, except its Bryan, not Brian... moron