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Thread: FSAE + Innovation = Dead?

  1. #1
    Why is it that when a team of students build a car that is against the so called "norms" and is slightly outside the box, why is it that they are criticized by not only the scrutineers, the judges but also advisors. They receive praise from other students but get put down by the senior officials. Is FSAE a competition for engineering students designed to develop and foster ingenuity or merely a competition to win?

    What I am referring to is the reception a team received at the recent Australasian Formula SAE event in Melbourne. As soon as their car was rolled off the trailer and taken to scrutineering it, and the team were lectured by senior officials that the car they had built was "not what the competition was about and that it was too technical, complicated and pointless in its design". There was nothing overly complicated about the car nor its design. Certainly nothing in comparison to the events thoroughly deserved and stunning winning car from Western Australia. It was purely designed with a different approach to the "standard" FSAE car. The officials came across as narrow minded and stuck in their views. Instead of looking at the car for its many different and creative ideas, it was heavily criticized and scrutinized.

    The car itself in my opinion was stunning and unfortunately did not compete in the dynamic events due to a clutch issue (One of the only parts on the car carried over from the previous first year car). The officials commented to the team that they had "bitten off more than they could chew" and implied that the team had somehow failed. All this without even knowing anything about the team or the weeks building up to the competition. The fact that the car was nearly ready to compete less the noise test and brake test was a credit to the extremely dedicated team considering the events which unfolded leading up to the comp.

    They were told they should copy other successful teams designs (isn't that a form of plagiarism). Not only do I consider the comments made by certain officials irresponsible and inappropriate but I think they are the ones who clearly do not know what the competition is about. I'm of the opinion that the car they built is what the competition is about and FSAE and motorsport will move forward if more teams thought outside of the box and took a gamble on an idea. What sort of an engineer came up with the fan car, active suspension, the twin chassis Lotus, zero-shift or front torque transfer? The one who follows others or the one who takes a different approach. They took on an ambitious project and I hope that they can find sufficient funding to get to Formula Student UK or other European or USA events because I look forward to seeing it on the track. Nothing Ventured Nothing Gained. Now that I've put you all to sleep, your thoughts on the subject would be appreciated.

  2. #2
    Why is it that when a team of students build a car that is against the so called "norms" and is slightly outside the box, why is it that they are criticized by not only the scrutineers, the judges but also advisors. They receive praise from other students but get put down by the senior officials. Is FSAE a competition for engineering students designed to develop and foster ingenuity or merely a competition to win?

    What I am referring to is the reception a team received at the recent Australasian Formula SAE event in Melbourne. As soon as their car was rolled off the trailer and taken to scrutineering it, and the team were lectured by senior officials that the car they had built was "not what the competition was about and that it was too technical, complicated and pointless in its design". There was nothing overly complicated about the car nor its design. Certainly nothing in comparison to the events thoroughly deserved and stunning winning car from Western Australia. It was purely designed with a different approach to the "standard" FSAE car. The officials came across as narrow minded and stuck in their views. Instead of looking at the car for its many different and creative ideas, it was heavily criticized and scrutinized.

    The car itself in my opinion was stunning and unfortunately did not compete in the dynamic events due to a clutch issue (One of the only parts on the car carried over from the previous first year car). The officials commented to the team that they had "bitten off more than they could chew" and implied that the team had somehow failed. All this without even knowing anything about the team or the weeks building up to the competition. The fact that the car was nearly ready to compete less the noise test and brake test was a credit to the extremely dedicated team considering the events which unfolded leading up to the comp.

    They were told they should copy other successful teams designs (isn't that a form of plagiarism). Not only do I consider the comments made by certain officials irresponsible and inappropriate but I think they are the ones who clearly do not know what the competition is about. I'm of the opinion that the car they built is what the competition is about and FSAE and motorsport will move forward if more teams thought outside of the box and took a gamble on an idea. What sort of an engineer came up with the fan car, active suspension, the twin chassis Lotus, zero-shift or front torque transfer? The one who follows others or the one who takes a different approach. They took on an ambitious project and I hope that they can find sufficient funding to get to Formula Student UK or other European or USA events because I look forward to seeing it on the track. Nothing Ventured Nothing Gained. Now that I've put you all to sleep, your thoughts on the subject would be appreciated.

  3. #3
    Dave,

    I noticed you said "young team". I think what immediately sets off design judges and other advisors is when teams try to start off with lots of innovation without truly and completely understanding the fundamentals of what lies behind the performance of the cars we build. Only after teams understand the fundamentals can they optimize the "traditional" design. After that innovation seems to be well applauded in my mind. It's innovation that's not thoroughly thought through or has no history backing up the design process that pisses off design judges. That's my $.02.


    Scott Israel
    Carnegie Mellon University

  4. #4
    Senior Member
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    having not seen the competiton,the car in question, nor the team members who built said car, I would say that a car that didn't run well enough to participate or finish the dynamic events also doesn't meet the intent of the rules for fsae. Innovation in fsae is obviously a hot topic right now but comments made to the effect of "everybody hates us be cause we innovated too much" seem a bit out of line. performance speaks for itself. as a side note "bling" has no effect on competition results.
    '01-'06 Cal Poly Pomona

  5. #5
    what exactly does the car have and what ticks the scruitineer off on the car to make them make such comment? I think we all saw the picture of the car posted in the FSAE-AUS thread, and it is a stunning looking car, but nothing I'd expect to be that far off the norm. At least without a closer inspection. Can at least someone give us a run over of the car?
    Finished @ UofT Racing
    2003-2007
    www.fsae.utoronto.ca

  6. #6
    When i say young team i was referring to years in the competition and not knowledge. A sixth overall in 2004 for a first year attempt in a highly competitive series such as FSAE Australia shows that knowledge was not an issue in my opinion. I am not trying to start a debate in relation to a particular car as there are many other examples but more of a debate over the merits a team gets for innovation and creativity in this competition.

  7. #7
    I've heard a few times about how the judges and scruiteneers supposedly blasted this car, but I still don't know what for.

    I thought it looked like a very well done car.

    Please give us some specifics. What was said by who, what was wrong? Etc...
    Michigan Technological University Formula SAE Alumni

  8. #8
    Point noted Dave. I was not aware of the previous performance of Auckland nor do I assume that anyone on this forum or any team lacks knowledge. Infact I feel that 90% of people involved in FSAE know more than I do. I'm just here doing what I love.

    This discussion is interesting to say the least, infact it started this summer when a lot of people spoke up about wanting more points for design and less emphasis to be placed on performance. It's obvious that the organizers of FSAE are more concerned with performance than design and innovation. When the FSAE rules come out with point weightings equally distributed between design and dynamic events, then I agree, no one should be sticking their nose up at too much innovation.

    In the mean time, everyone should take the condescending view on innovation with a grain of salt. Everyone is going to have their own opinions. If a design judge doesn't like something, there are proably good reasons behind it. But at the same time, they are human and have their own biases about everything.


    Scott Israel
    Carnegie Mellon University

  9. #9
    Have any of you even checked out their web site? It looks to me like they had a pretty good idea of what they were getting themselves into. There are some cad drawings and manufacturing photos on there to give you a more detailed view of the car.
    I have always wanted to stray away from the 'standard' car, but there's got to be a perceived advantage for trying something new. I can understand the judges if they thought it was innovation for the sake of innovation, but maybe the team's motive wasn't fully explained.
    Greg Hartman
    Cessna Aircraft
    Mizzou Racing 2003-2006

  10. #10
    Great points Dave, although I do feel there is much more risk for a new team to create an "outlandish" in their first effort. Yet when do we ever see veteran teams coming out with radically new concepts and innovations? Cornell is great at what they do because they seem to improve on previous designs each year and have generated a tried and true FSAE model that impresses judges. But is their car really innovative and new, or an excellent representation of optimization?

    I believe if a team can make a completely innovative example that does well dynamically, and is explained through detailed testing and analysis, no one should fault them. Bravo Auckland (but bring some new clutches!)
    Team President, Driver
    WUracing
    WU Formula Racing

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