+ Reply to Thread
Page 27 of 60 FirstFirst ... 17 25 26 27 28 29 37 ... LastLast
Results 261 to 270 of 595

Thread: Teams from India

  1. #261
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Midwest USA (near Chicago)
    Posts
    44
    This thread started off with good intentions, and it just keeps getting better. Pat keeps poking at the slower posters (who, quite simply, ‘don’t get it’) in a concerted effort to speed up the back-markers. You go Pat! Eventually all the Indian FSAE competitors will be buzzing right along at FSAE speed. It is inevitable!

    Claude has contributed some real insight into the Indian problem. It took some large stones to put all of his hard accrued observations down on virtual paper. Inevitably a few posters mis-read his intentions, took offense, and as a result (normal human psychological response) went on the offensive themselves. There is no need for that. I can guarantee you that the rest of the world WANTS to see India succeed. It is through open discussion that the rest of us will see the problem for what it is, adapt, and then be able to offer the right kind of assistance to help bring Indian competitors up to speed.

    Congratulations Claude! It takes big stones to bare it all in the interest of clearing up the muddy waters and doing what it takes to jump start this India project into inevitable success! I am glad you are on the Indian side!

    Geoff (Big Bird) has a good grasp on FSAE, project management, and engineering in general. His post referred to on page 11 of this thread is a good read for all new Indian FSAE competitors. Start reading now.

    Kevin Hayward is another visionary engineer, who can be relied upon to give you straight, honest advice. Listen carefully to Kevin. He is not blowing smoke up your skirt!

    And now for the big news: Yes, FSAE/FS is really just a big project management competition. We often say that we use motorsports and fast cars to lure you into the biggest project management program of your young lives. Yes it is a cruel trick, but like moths drawn to a flame, the testosterone laden young males come willingly. However, when it is all over, you don’t get killed by the flame. Instead, you get the education of a lifetime, which puts you on the career fast track, like no other educational experience on earth!

    I read an interesting term in this thread: ‘Resume guys’. It is appropriate. If you are simply going along with FSAE so you can list it on your resume, you, quite simply, don’t get it. FSAE takes diligence, determination, passion, cunning, and sweat. Not every engineering student can cut it in FSAE. And you know what? I’m OK with that. If you expect to be able to land the best jobs in the automotive, aerospace, and motorsports industries, you had better be good. You had better be ‘FSAE Good’!

    I have been told over and over by the best FSAE/FS Faculty Advisors in the world, that the best FSAE students are not always the ones with the best GPA’s. They are the ones who are in the lab (shop) after midnight building & assembling. They are the ones who do not have girlfriends, or a social life, or spare time, or extra money. They are the ones who legitimately get to list FSAE on their resumes!

    Mustafa makes reference to Dick Golembiewski’s (pronounced Gome-be-yef-skee) paper: ‘Managing Student Vehicle Projects, the Non-Technical Side’. It is a great paper for students just starting down the road to FSAE. Dick revised the paper in 2008, just before he died. If you are new to FSAE: Read it!

    Side story… Dick was a GREAT mentor. He attended college at Milwaukee School of Engineering (MSOE). As a student, he built and entered a car in the first ever FSAE competition (known at the time as ‘Mini Indy’). After graduation Dick took a job in the engineering department of Harley-Davidson for a short period (until Harley ran into big financial troubles in the early ‘80s). Dick then went back to MSOE as a professor.

    As a professor at MSOE, Dick created their first ever vehicle dynamics curriculum. Dick was the faculty advisor for MSOE’s Mini Baja (what you now know as Baja SAE) and FSAE teams. There was a time (in the ‘80s) when MSOE teams OWNED the Baja SAE competitions, winning several years, sometimes, consecutive years in a row. This was in large part due to Dick’s exemplary teaching and mentoring skills. He had a knack for teaching you things... even stuff you thought you already knew.

    The advantage of having a skilled Faculty Advisor cannot be overstated. It is the teaching and mentoring skills, in a great Faculty Advisor, which takes an average FSAE team and pushes them over the top to being a great FSAE team!

    This thread got hijacked a little with stories of unsafe motoring in India. I challenge all Indian FSAE students right now to break the mold. Start wearing a seat belt. Start being the one to wear the helmet and eye protection on your motorcycle. Set the example for others to follow. Eventually they will follow, and you will then be looked upon as the Visionary leader(s) who changed a culture.

    Safety must carry over into FSAE. Safety is your number one concern in FSAE. NUMBER ONE! You want an example? Google up ‘1955 Le Mans crash’. Look at the video. A Mercedes racecar went into the stands at that race. It was travelling well in excess of 125 mph (200 kph). It killed around a hundred people (the official number varies from 80 to 120). At the time, the Le Mans track was the original track (built in the early 1900s) designed for car speeds of 40 mph (65 kph). In 1955 racecars were exceeding 190 mph (305 kph).

    A direct result of that crash was that Mercedes pulled out of all motorsports for the next 30 years. Jaguar also pulled out of any motorsports involvement for 30 years.

    Pat and I are constantly reminding students ‘Those who cannot recall the past are destined to repeat it’. It is true. What do you think will happen if a car goes airborne at a SUPRASAE ‘race’, and goes into the crowd? It will kill people. The images will be flashed around the world in an instant. The negative impact on FSAE/FS competitions around the world will be long and ‘event changing’. DO NOT be the country to have the first FSAE accident, which kills someone!

    FSAE is a college level, student engineering competition. The Endurance segment of a FSAE Event is a competition, NOT a race! There IS a big difference. You quite simply DO NOT put two FSAE cars on a track at the same time where they have even a remote possibility of rubbing wheels. It is UNSAFE!

    Set the example. Be the one to start wearing the helmet… a seat belt… a fire suit. Follow the FSAE rules of operation. They are in place for your safety.

    Where do I stand?
    SUPRASAE: Unsafe event. At the very least, it needs a thorough safety overhaul, from the ground up. Handing students a ‘spec powertrain’, which they cannot modify is not FSAE. No car operating at SUPRASAE is built well enough to compete at any other FSAE competition. SUPRASAE needs to operate under the official FSAE rules.

    SAE India: I have just recently started working with SAE INDIA. Great organization. They are listening and paying attention. Pat has alluded to changes ‘in the wind’. Watch SAE India. The change is coming! I guarantee it.

    HANS device: Yes I advocate safety. However, we also try to balance economy with safety whenever possible. At the speeds that FSAE cars are held to, and if the FSAE tracks are designed per the FSAE rules (in order to limit top end speeds) a HANS device does not need to be mandated. Mandating use of a HANS device is something for the FSAE Rules Committee to decide, which I know has been discussed recently.

    Class 1 cars: The only way to go, as far as I am concerned.

    Class 2 cars (second year cars): If you are a junior college and simply cannot manage to get a FSAE car built in one year, then maybe a Class 2 car has some merit. If you come to a FS competition with a Class 2 car, you had better understand it, and the changes you made to it over the past year.

    Virtual FSAE: A complete waste of time and effort. The purpose of FSAE is to build something. You are already getting an engineering education. You need to be able to apply that education. THAT is FSAE. Some students can’t cut it in FSAE. If you want to do virtual anything, go find another college competition to enter. There are plenty others out there…

    We Design Judges discuss India… a lot. We are continually looking for ways to get Indian teams to improve. One evening, over dinner in Germany a few years ago, Pat and I discussed how an Indian team would go about designing and building a FSAE car which is within the ability, materials resources, and budget of the average Indian team.

    The car we designed (literally on the back of a napkin) would:
    Be designed with clearly defined goals, aimed at maximizing points scored.
    Finish ALL segments of a FSAE Competition (Static and Dynamic).
    Potentially win Fuel Efficiency.
    Potentially win Cost.
    Place relatively high in the Design Event, because it would be superbly defended by the team which built it, BECAUSE it would be so simple, the team would have a clear and intimate understanding of ALL aspects of the vehicle design and manufacture.
    Be gasoline powered. (Tuned to run on the local benzene. When we put good gas in it at competition, even better.)
    Be submitted with an exemplary Design Report, Design Spec Sheet, Cost Report, etc.
    Be extremely lightweight. (We projected 350 pounds (160 kilos)) (Using NO exotic materials or exotic parts not commonly available ‘in-country’.)
    Be a ‘simple’ car, with NO extra bells and whistles.
    Have an extreme minimum electrical system.
    Be built with materials readily available ‘in-country’ (including engine, brakes, shocks, etc.).
    Be a rather interesting approach, Which neither Pat nor I have seen at a competition yet.
    Cost less than $2,000 USD to build (not counting the team’s labor).
    Would be clean enough to EAT off of!

    If you want to learn more about this car, go search out Pat’s posts over the past few years. He has discussed this in the past, just not all at once… If you read enough of his posts you will be able to piece together most of this design.

    Why don’t I just tell you what ‘the design’ is? There is an old saying: ‘Give a man a fish and you will feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you will feed him for a lifetime.’ I don’t want to see just one Indian team succeed. I want to change a culture, and see India succeed!

    Why do I tell you this? Because I have recently pledged my assistance to seeing the India FSAE ‘problem’ through to a logical conclusion. You will be learning more about this in the months to come, but a group of us are working together to ensure the success of FSAE India.

    Stay tuned…
    Steve Fox
    FSAE-MI Chief Design Judge
    Formula Bharat Chief Design Judge (Coming in 2017!)
    FS-India Chief Design Judge (NO further association)
    FSG Chief Design Judge (ret.)
    FSA Chief Design Judge (ret.)
    FSAE-VIR Design Event Captain (ret.)
    SAE Industrial Lecturer
    http://students.sae.org/chapters/lec.../lecturers.htm

  2. #262
    Originally posted by Claude Rouelle:
    I can give you very simple 101 car design and basic project management courses. Other judges or experienced person in FS / FSG like Big Bird or Pat Clark or Steve Fox could even do a better job than me.... But I can't help to ask
    - Don't you have ANY basic machine design course, not even applied to a Formula Student course. Whoever experienced FSAE / FS person you would bring in the country he could not spend many weeks teaching these courses and you would not be able to come to the same India place. And it could be you need several weeks
    - Same question for project management course... ?
    - Let's say that some of the design judge would come for these courses the first thing they will ask you is how well do you understand the environment; how well do you measure the challenges do you measure cost, effort, time to success and especially how well do you understand rules: I had to teach a specific course on FSAE in one of your university I would make it a prerequisite to succeed to a car exam.
    - Don't you have a racing federation or some kind of education organization of the Indian automotive industry who could generate and maybe sponsor such courses for you. The German organize seminar for their own students. SAE US is paying a few lecturers to go to some US universities to teach some if these basics. Nothing like that in India?

    Claude
    Hello Claude,

    1. Yes, we have Mechanical/Machine Design courses in our universities. But the problem is that they concentrate more on theory than practical applications. It is left to us to figure out how to apply the principles we learn to FSAE.

    2. No, we dont have any project management or systems engineering courses in any university. That's why I'm emphasizing so much on it.

    3. Yes, I agree with you. An FSAE rules exam must be conducted before any such course is started. If a person does not know the rules, he/she should not be allowed to take the course.

    4.Yes, we do have SAE India. But I am not sure whether they conduct any course. I haven't seen any advertisement related to that yet.

    I agree it would be difficult for everyone to come to the same place in India for the entire duration of the course. We have vacations in all universities in December and June. But since everyone is busy with their cars, it would be tough to attend. I think a paid webinar series would be a good idea at this time. I also believe that it would be very inspirational for everyone to interact with you/Pat Clarke/Steve Fox/Geoff through a webinar once a week.

    Please let me know your thoughts on this.
    I am the self proclaimed admin from India. My aim in life is to cause widespread fear among trolls.

  3. #263
    @ All Indian teams- Since we are approaching the start of the FSAE European season, I think its a good idea to make sure cars are able to pass scrutineering. Many times, Indian cars take a lot of time in scrutineering because of inadequate preparation, negligence or lack of knowledge of rules. Please read and re-read every single rule and ensure the car conforms to them. In case there is any doubt, you can ask here. You can post photos too and take opinions from experienced people on the forum. Of course they are not the final authority but they will be able to help you in most cases. You can also contact the rules committee.

    Some of you may think that if you post photos of your car, it would be embarrassing or people may make fun of it. But look at it this way- in case you dont get your designs verified now, you would be an embarrassment for the entire competition and most importantly you may not even pass tech. So just get your doubts cleared now.

    "If you ask a doubt, you run the risk of being stupid for 5 minutes. If you don't ask, you run the risk of being stupid for the rest of your life"- Claude Rouelle
    I am the self proclaimed admin from India. My aim in life is to cause widespread fear among trolls.

  4. #264
    Ans please guys refrain to do stupid things at the last minute ...

    In 2009 I was at the design part of FSAE India In Chennai. In order for their car to look good a team decided to paint their steering wheel.... just a few minutes before I judge their car. As I wanted to evaluate the steering stiffness, I grabbed the steering wheel and ... you know what happened.

    Nobody was a winner in this little incident; the team wasn't, I wasn't... any of the other competitor was...
    Embarrassing..

    Just use a bit of common sense guys...

    Claude
    Claude Rouelle
    OptimumG president
    Vehicle Dynamics & Race Car Engineering
    Training / Consulting / Simulation Software
    FS & FSAE design judge USA / Canada / UK / Germany / Spain / Italy / China / Brazil / Australia
    [url]www.optimumg.com[/u

  5. #265
    2. No, we dont have any project management or systems engineering courses in any university. That's why I'm emphasizing so much on it.
    I went on youtube and saw several hours of free of charge project management course (from IIT by the way). Seems a bit theoretical or rhetorical, at first glance, but there must be a few courses like those that would teach some good advice to build a FSAE, no?
    Claude Rouelle
    OptimumG president
    Vehicle Dynamics & Race Car Engineering
    Training / Consulting / Simulation Software
    FS & FSAE design judge USA / Canada / UK / Germany / Spain / Italy / China / Brazil / Australia
    [url]www.optimumg.com[/u

  6. #266
    4.Yes, we do have SAE India. But I am not sure whether they conduct any course. I haven't seen any advertisement related to that yet.
    What are you waiting to call them and ask?
    Claude Rouelle
    OptimumG president
    Vehicle Dynamics & Race Car Engineering
    Training / Consulting / Simulation Software
    FS & FSAE design judge USA / Canada / UK / Germany / Spain / Italy / China / Brazil / Australia
    [url]www.optimumg.com[/u

  7. #267
    Originally posted by Claude Rouelle:
    I went on youtube and saw several hours of free of charge project management course (from IIT by the way). Seems a bit theoretical or rhetorical, at first glance, but there must be a few courses like those that would teach some good advice to build a FSAE, no?
    There are loads...

    Just to give a hint, Massachusetts has quite a good university with lots of open courses.
    University of Glasgow BEng 2003-2007
    Oxford Brookes MSc 2007-2008
    University of Glasgow PhD 2009 - god knows when.....
    WORK ....
    --------------------------------------------
    Preliminary operational tests proved inconclusive.... It blew up when we flipped the switch

  8. #268
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    1,690
    Originally posted by Steve Fox:
    One evening, over dinner in Germany a few years ago, Pat and I discussed how an Indian team would go about designing and building a FSAE car which is within the ability, materials resources, and budget of the average Indian team.

    The car we designed (literally on the back of a napkin) would:
    ...
    Be extremely lightweight. (We projected 350 pounds (160 kilos)) (Using NO exotic materials or exotic parts not commonly available ‘in-country’.)
    ...
    Cost less than $2,000 USD to build (not counting the team’s labor).

    If you want to learn more about this car, go search out Pat’s posts over the past few years. He has discussed this in the past, just not all at once… If you read enough of his posts you will be able to piece together most of this design.
    Hmmmmm?????

    Given that for as long as I can remember Pat has advised students to build a spaceframe car, with 600cc 4-cylinder sportsbike engine, 13" wheels, pushrods and rockers, etc. and etc., what has changed?

    Pat?

    Anyone else got a clue what this 160kg, $2k car would look like?

    (Is it brown??? )

    Z

  9. #269
    Originally posted by ed_pratt:
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Claude Rouelle:
    I went on youtube and saw several hours of free of charge project management course (from IIT by the way). Seems a bit theoretical or rhetorical, at first glance, but there must be a few courses like those that would teach some good advice to build a FSAE, no?
    There are loads...

    Just to give a hint, Massachusetts has quite a good university with lots of open courses. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Yeah I know that there are many such courses online, but will FSAE members spend time watching them? When Claude's name is attached to any FSAE event, students will be automatically attracted like paparazzi to Angelina Jolie or like flies to..you know what. We saw that at the seminar in Pune when 131 people attended. SAE India does not conduct any such workshops.

    Since I am working in an automotive company and no longer directly connected to FSAE, the current teams should decide on this. I believe that it is very important for teams to get knowledge on Project Management too and this can be achieved either by Claude spending a couple of days on this topic during his next visit to India or by him or some other experienced person hosting a webinar session once a week.
    I know it would be difficult for everyone to come to the same place but if you can successfully conduct a seminar once, you can easily do it again.
    I am the self proclaimed admin from India. My aim in life is to cause widespread fear among trolls.

  10. #270
    SAE India does not conduct any such workshops.
    SAE India does not conduct any such workshops.

    Are you sure? Did you ask? Would you be able to have them or any Indian automotive industry teaching you? Did you or any Indian FSAE / FS team ever asked SAE India? If not why not? Come on guys the answer could be, at least in part, from within....

    Asking for help and support is not different than for a guy asking a girl for date: If you do not want to know, do not ask. But if you ask and the answer is not the one you hoped for, do not be pissed at yourself for asking.

    The very worse answer you can have is a NO. What else do you have to risk?

    Whether it is me me or any any experienced FS / FSAE coming ot Indian to share with you knowledge, skills, experience and perspectives there will be a need of demonstration of your desire to learn and improve.

    I can shop for you foo all the ingredients for dinner, can cook for you and even put it in your mouth put I cannot digest it for you...

    Something, , a first credible step has to be done by one of you...

    Time to show some guts and some leadership, guys... How will be the first Indian showing that he cares for his country and the whole Indian FSAE effort at least as much as he cares about himself and his own team? Who would that be?

    You can talk the talk, but can you walk the walk?

    Claude
    Claude Rouelle
    OptimumG president
    Vehicle Dynamics & Race Car Engineering
    Training / Consulting / Simulation Software
    FS & FSAE design judge USA / Canada / UK / Germany / Spain / Italy / China / Brazil / Australia
    [url]www.optimumg.com[/u

+ Reply to Thread
Page 27 of 60 FirstFirst ... 17 25 26 27 28 29 37 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts