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Thread: Life, the Universe, and our curious obsession with engines

  1. #1
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    Over the past couple of years I've probably confused the hell out of a lot of people on these forums, more often than not with my own personal philosophies on vehicle design. I've probably seemed a little abrasive towards some members, which certainly has not been my intention (Daniniowa and Garlic are first to mind sorry gents!). I just think sometimes by challenging the established axioms we can all further our own knowledge a little.

    So anyway, rather than keep hijacking other people's threads, I thought I'd open my own whereby you can all have a dig back at me. It's a bit of a thesis so you'll all have plenty of ammo

    My personal philosophy is similar to Z's, in that we tend to overcomplicate our designs, and don't pay enough attention to the stuff that really matters. Where I might stray from Z's philosophy a little is that I think our obsession with engine performance is a little unfounded.

    Does more power always make us faster?
    I started thinking about this in response to a comment made on another thread, when someone wrote that you can never have too much power. I replied that I disagreed, mainly because in principle I think that such outright statements don't really address the issues of balance we face when we design a car. EVERY benefit comes at some cost whether it be track speed at another part of the course, risk of failure, development time, financial cost, etc etc. It is our task as engineers to find the right balance, and to be aware of the compromises that relate to our designs.

    In relation to the power argument, my assertion is that engine performance comes at the expense of weight. The more power/torque we have, the greater the loads we are placing on our drivetrain and cooling systems, and therefore the more material (read weight) we require to construct them (for a given safety factor). If we accept the premise of tyre load sensitivity, (i.e. that a tyre's coefficient of friction decreases with increasing vertical load), then this increase in weight has reduced our lateral acceleration capability our cornering speed. (There is a graph in the first chapter of Milliken to visualize the concept of tyre load sensitivity, page 29 or else if you have ever stiffened up the front / softened the rear to cure oversteer then you are aware of the effect). Effectively more power equals less cornering speed.

    So a hypothetical argument. Imagine one team builds a car with a gun CBR motor, puts out 90hp. Everything built as light as it can to suit the power, the thing is a rocketship in a straight line and a damn nice little car. Another team detunes their CBR to 45hp and builds a car of the same geometry. Of course, they can downsize cooling system, driveshafts, CV's, chain and sprockets, diff and diff mounts, maybe rear tyre widths, even braking system to an extent. Weight savings? Maybe 5-10kgs? The thing will be a plug in a straight line, but if tuned properly the lesser weight should make it quicker around corners, (not necessarily much!). And somewhere in the middle there is a combination of straights and corners whereby the two cars will be equivalently as fast as each other. One problem, two solutions.....

    Of course the above is a trivial example, but it's a philosophical argument to show that even with the same engine we can have less power and sometimes go faster because of it. (Remember I'm challenging the assertion that more power/torque is always better). A more significant effect would be seen when the second team takes the argument further and replaces their 45hp CBR with an engine that was designed for that power. And suddenly we have saved 30-40kg, and we get the situation where the "slow" car is starting to hold its own on tracks with longer straights.

    I'm acting a bit as the devil's advocate here. But sometimes these mental exercises open up trains of thought that can end up working for you.

    Our curious obsession with engine performance
    So how much does our engine performance really help us? I get the impression that some engine junkies think that if their engine is 20% more powerful they'll be 20% quicker around the track. A more educated guess might be that if the track is 20% straights, then you will be 20% x 20% = 4% quicker around the track. When you work out the figures, it is not even that.

    For the sake of simplicity, we'll consider that the car has constant acceleration. (If you have a reasonably flat torque curve within your operating rev range, it's not a bad assumption). The car's equation of motion down a straight can be calculated through the formula:
    x = u.t + 1/2a.t^2
    where "x" is the distance, "u" is initial speed (corner exit speed), "a" is the acceleration and "t" is the time taken. From the above we can see that for a given distance:
    " There is a term (u.t) that is completely independent of acceleration
    " The term containing acceleration is attached to a time squared function meaning any time saving will be related to the square root of the acceleration.

    When we first started doing some research on the first RMIT single car in 2001/2002, we estimated the typical 600/4 might be around 20% better off on power-weight ratio, (given our conservative weight target for the first car). So imagining worst case enduro/autocross scenario for an underpowered car whereby you are leaving a low speed corner (say, 36kmh = 10m/s) and accelerating down a long straight (75 metres max according to FSAE rules, which we'll reduce to 60 metres given braking distance and corner entry and exit transients). We'll estimate slow car's acceleration at 10m/s^2 (just over 1g), and therefore the 20% more powerful car at 12m/s^2.

    The equations for the two cars become:
    60 = 10t + 5t^2, which solves as t = 2.605sec (slow car)
    60 = 10t + 6t^2, which solves as t = 2.437sec (fast car)

    The car with 20% more power/weight has in the order of a 6.5% advantage along the straights. For an Oz or FStudent track with only around 15% full throttle time, the effect is in the order of 1% time based over the whole track. If Rotor's throttle pot figures are correct, then maybe for the US track the time advantage stretches out to around 2-2.5%.

    Remember the above is worst case, assuming all the straights are long with a stop corner before them, and not taking into account that a lighter car should be able to get out of a corner quicker, thereby diminishing the effect of the 1/2a.t^2 term even further.

    Effectively with the first RMIT single we only had to be around 0.2% quicker around the rest of the track for our single to be competitive, and we "bought" ourselves a 40kg weight saving to do it with.

    The guts of it all? The contribution of 20% better engine performance may be as little as 1-2% towards lap times and that is before it is balanced against the negative effect on lap times due to the extra weight. And if your engine development team is only delivering a couple of horsepower here and there, you have to wonder whether it is all worthwhile.

    As a real-life validity check of the estimates, in 2003 the best 600/4's had around 20% power to weight advantage over the first RMIT single. In the Acceleration event, the "u.t" term in the equation above disappears, so the time taken should be directly related to the square root of the acceleration, i.e around 10% quicker for a car of around 20% better power to weight. UQ were doing around 4.0/4.1 seconds, whereas RMIT was doing around 4.5 seconds. So the estimates seem pretty valid.

    The question your team honestly has to ask itself is, are we really close enough to the Cornells, UoW's and UWA's of this world to be concerned about one percenters? Especially when we pay for it with trade-offs elsewhere on the track? Maybe, if your team is consistently finishing the whole event, and you are continually scoring over 800 points, then that last little bit of straight line speed might be worth it, might not. But if you are scoring less than 800 points each comp then I think you have much more pressing concerns than outright engine performance. Get the thing running smoothly and make sure your hot start works and direct the bulk of your resources to more important things.

    What should we be concentrating on? I'm going to agree with Kevin Heyward here, in that I think the true key to track speed in FSAE is in the handling dampers and tyres. If you can build up your corner speed, it helps you everywhere on the track, even the straights (see u.t term in the straight line equation above).

    If engine performance is so unimportant, why do pro race teams spend so much time and money on it?
    I'm pre-empting the above question. FSAE is a completely different game to actual wheel-to-wheel racing, and that is due to the fact that we don't have to pass our opponents outright on the track rather if one car is lapping faster than another, the slower is flagged out of the way. This is a big difference. Under standard track racing conditions, most passing is done under brakes and into corners, which means that to be competitive you need to keep up with the opposition down the straights. Higher corner speed at the expense of straight line speed doesn't work too well in a wheel to wheel situation your competitive advantage under cornering is lost when you get baulked by the cars that blew by you down the straight.

    If anyone is interested I can relay the story of Aprilia's 500GP entry of a few years back as an example but this post is dragging on enough already!

    In FSAE, we are a lot more open to experimentation with where we can chase track speed - and can more easily trade straight line speed for cornering.

    Intent of the competition
    The good people who designed the rules for this event were well aware that this competition needs to be cheap and safe for it to survive the test of time. Everyone in professional motorsport knows that power is expensive, and to design a competition whereby power is the deciding factor would be disastrous at a student level. The regulations are, quite cleverly in my opinion, framed to make us think further than outright engine performance. Think about the 20mm restrictor, short straights, slaloms and lots of corners, extra points for fuel economy, speeds not high enough for significant wind drag, lack of wheel to wheel racing as mentioned above. Everything is there for us to be a bit more adventurous in our designs and yet most still cling tight to the premise that the first thing to consider is to have a greater engine performance to weight ratio than the opposition. I think it is a wasted opportunity to be a little innovative, that's all.

    Now I've made a right nong of myself fire away ladies and gents
    Geoff Pearson

    RMIT FSAE 02-04
    Monash FSAE 05
    RMIT FSAE 06-07

    Design it. Build it. Break it.

  2. #2
    I liked your post. I think it was well thought.
    Not neccessarily that I disagree with the current rules, but I would love to see less restrictions on the engine and its systems. I understand that the FSAE committee might be wishing to see students with a limited power range design the best chassis/suspension out of a vehicle (so to speak), but it is really wasting the innovation of what the more thermal/fluids influenced people need to do.

    Throttle body design, intake air cooling, and flow paths are the first topics that come to my head when it comes to engine systems innovation. We deserve a chance to show off too!

    Anyways, I may have steered a little off subject here, but to go back to your point, yes; more power does not neccessarily mean faster cars. However, if the rules change, it would definitely mean better usage of that power.
    ASU Motorsports -- Starting 2006

  3. #3
    Geoff,
    I think I see one of your marbles back in the corner...

    Just kidding, great post, and I agree for the most part. However, I'd argue that drivetrain stresses come primarily from tire loading. Even a 45HP single can be geared down to produce the same torque at launch as a 75HP 4-cylinder, therefore requiring the same drivetrain strength/mass. Smaller tire diameters help reduce the weight of these parts, however. Anybody seen those 16" LeCont's on any cars other than Delft?
    Alumni, University of Washington
    Structural / Mechanical Engineer, Blue Origin

  4. #4
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    Geoff,

    Excellent post ... again. (Although you mis-spelt Hayward)

    Engine power, at least for us, is not the main issue with our powertrain development. A big part of why we stay with the CBR is the knowledge we have accumulated on working with the engine. Reliability of a FSAE car has to be number one priority. To go out and out break on the finish line attitude is paramount to wasting your sponsors and Uni's money and resources. At least from our perspective.

    I do want to pose a question to you Geoff. Mainly because I know that whatever your answer is it will be well thought out. Why is it that the skidpan event rankings are not just the list of entered cars from the lightest to the heaviest? (At least for the cars with the same tyres)

    Given equivalent abilities to setup cars (which I assume exist amongst the top group of teams) the event should come down to the mass of the driver and vehicle as well as the COG height.

    Cheers,

    Kev

  5. #5
    it is really wasting the innovation of what the more thermal/fluids influenced people need to do.

    Throttle body design, intake air cooling, and flow paths are the first topics that come to my head when it comes to engine systems innovation. We deserve a chance to show off too!
    Not very much true..... in fact when you have a big restriction like we all do (20mm), innovation in fluid dynamics, flow paths, etc can help you a lot. Then again, a couple more HP won't necessarily win you the competition as Geoff said, but you can certainly "show off"

  6. #6
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    Denny, good point. I wasn't thinking about take-off, my head was spinning around an endurance track as I wrote that. Those extra 860 posts or so have certainly sharpened your eye for such anomalies

    Kev, hugest apologies. Never mind, when you become a household name (as predicted in that Racetech article all those months back), we'll all be spelling Haywood right.

    You've raised a damn good point, obviously with reference to a discussion here about 12 months back. The skidpan event has characteristics all of it's own as compared to cornering on the autocross/endurance track. I can think of three reasons off the top of my head why RMIT at least has traditionally failed to set the world on fire with skidpan:
    1) The driver was, for two events at least, an aging, under-weight, over-rated hack with abysmal driving skills, questionable personal hygiene, and yellow feathers
    2) Tyre temperatures
    3) Vehicle track width
    I'll expand on the second and third points. Firstly, we designed the 2003 car with a narrow track, trading some weight transfer and therefore cornering grip so that the car would be more maneuvreable through slaloms and changes of direction. Going back to the Tailem Bend comp, from memory the beanie boys from Chalmers won both skid pad and acceleration (or at least did really well in both). Wow, you'd think, fastest car in both a straight line and in corners - it will cane everyone on the main track. But it didn't. It had a very wide track, great for grip and the skid pad, but it did look rather awkward through the twisty stuff. (Sorry gents, not trying to bag your car - I loved that thing, and you beat us after all! Just using it as an example of relative trade-offs.)
    The narrow track was a design decision we made early given we place most emphasis on endurance/autocross. Wider track means you are laterally shifting your CofG more through a given change of direction. If you design purely for grip, you may find the increase in available grip is overwhelmed by the force you need to generate to overcome the extra "amplitude". Being aware of costs and benefits....
    Also, a light car doesn't heat up it's tyres as quickly as something heavier. I now get the feeling this effect is quite significant in skid pad. Before Tailem Bend we were consistently doing 5.1's and some 5.0's around a dusty carpark at uni, on old brick compound Dunlops. We figured we'd be right at the pointy end on new tyres in a stinking hot SA desert. Nope. Ended up at 5.5, midfield, scratching our heads. Even changing to stickier Goodyears for FStudent, which helped in the open track stuff, still had us at 5.5 in skidpad. Tyres not even warm. Once again, a design decision that pays off in one event, with trade-offs in another.

    Hope that helps Kev. And give Alma a big hug for me. Will we see her at Werribee this year?

    And just a quick clarification that I didn't include in my post above. My primary argument isn't meant to be a singles versus fours (versus twins versus V8's or anything else for that matter). I would rather put the position that whatever you have, just get it running reliably and leave it alone. Our obsession with engine performance figures just isn't justified.

    Cheers all, my fingers are tired.
    Geoff Pearson

    RMIT FSAE 02-04
    Monash FSAE 05
    RMIT FSAE 06-07

    Design it. Build it. Break it.

  7. #7
    Geoff,
    Just a couple of things with your assumptions -
    A 600/4 won't pull >1g all the way out of a slow corner down a straight, it might average ~0.6G. A single is unlikely to better that given similar gearing.

    The 100% throttle generalisations aren't so accurate for a formula car. I can only speak for a 600/4, but I imagine it's the same for a single. The engine might be making all the torque it can at 50% throttle at mid-revs, because airflow is limited by the engine's VE rather than the restriction of the throttle. MAP logging will show this pretty clearly. In short, there's a large portion of the rev range that maximum power for that RPM comes at something less than 100% throttle. If drivers were perfect, they'd be at 100% throttle everywhere they could use more power, but from what we've seen, they can be power limited and still not ask for more. This tends to be more pronounced with frequent corners.

    What all this means is that time at 100% throttle doesn't mean as much on these tracks as it might for real race cars, because you can be power limited at throttle positions below 100%.

    Other than that, from our perspective the challenge is in fuel economy. There's more points in lap speed than fuel economy when comparing 600/4's, but a single really screws it up for everyone. We have to be significantly faster than you guys to account for the hit we take in fuel economy, and the acceleration event alone might not be enough.

    Cheers,
    Nick

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    Geoff,

    Ahh you have picked an immediate hole in my rushed post. I can't believe I left such a gaping one as track dimension. By the way in the tailem bend comp Georgia Tech won skidpan. Also I think there was an error in the scoring because the average skidpan time for Chalmers was quicker than any of their individual times. I'm guessing on the error ... but it wouldn't be the first spreadsheet mistake from that comp.

    The mention of temperature is one of the things that we have been very interested in ... and have tested a lot about. The interesting thing is that given the tyre temperature is a significant problem on skidpan why are the teams running the skinnier Hoosiers not winning? The 7.5" Hoosiers (actually a tread width of 8.25") we run at the rear of our car should be abysmal for skidpan if tyre temperature is the dominant effect.

    The driver issue that you mentioned (although being too harsh on yourself) is quite a valid one ... even on skidpan. We have seen that driver error can be quite significant in terms of throttle control and steering corrections around the "theoretical" skidpan. Unfortunately the driver issue is probably the biggest gap in performance of any of the top running cars. Some of the driver pairings in Autocross show this very clearly. Seeing gaps of above 5 seconds between number one and two drivers account for much more of a performance difference than I have ever seen in any of our tuning attempts. I mention this as a fact not a complaint. You use the advantages you have. If that includes a talented and/or experienced driver then good luck to you.

    Once again I think we face an incredible balance between different vehicle effects. However we have had a lot of clues in testing that tyre load sensitivity is probably not the main contributor to vehicle performance. This has been pretty much empirical evidence and I don't want to share too much of our results for obvious reasons. However the biggest gains (apart from driver training) we have made in our testing involve analysing tyre temps (dynamically), damper work (not just Kinetics either) and suspension geometry. Before anybody drills me on the damper work having an affect on the dynamic loading of the tyres and hence its effect is somewhat due to tyre load sensitivity I'll concede the point and counter that the dampers also affect the dynamic position of the tyres and the amount of disturbance one corner will transmit to the others.

    I do not mean to shoot down the lightweight, low COG car at all. At least on paper it is the superior vehicle. However I would argue that suspension component stiffness, chassis stiffness, kinematics and damper properties have a bigger impact on performance than we tend to give credit for. Some of these issues result in added vehicle weight. I will also put in that the engine/drivetrain package has a much bigger effect on cornering performance than we (at UWA) had previously acknowledged.

    I pretty much asked the question because I think that simple analysis between basic vehicle properties is almost fruitless at best and misleading at worst. Which I think is along the lines of how you masters of RMIT approach the design problem. Taking the simple approach of power, weight and COG height misses out a lot of other issues that affect vehicle performance. Pretty much all of those arguments should be prefaced with the line "With all other things being equal". That being said I have been nothing but impressed with the RMIT take on the FSAE vehicle design. The vehicle is so much more than a single taking advantage of its inherrent lightweight. It makes me wonder where we would have been if we had started out on our first car with a single instead of a Honda 4.

    Anyway I hope this thread keeps going. Philosophy of design is so much more interesting than the stupid detail work you have to do to actually make the car happen.

    Cheers,

    Kev

    p.s. Geoff if you mis-spell Hayward again I may have to add you to my list of future victims as I sit in the corner of my padded in room in the asylum they set aside for FSAE students who spend too long reading Forum posts.

  9. #9
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    Sorry in my last post when I put the words "theoretcial" skidpan it was supposed to read "theoretical steady-state" skidpan.

    I do not propose that the skidpan is only "theoretical". In fact I have seen a few of them set up in real life.

    Kev

  10. #10
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    Great posts from Geoff and Kevin. I broadly agree with the points made.

    Adding to the point about driver ability. I agree completely with Geoff's argument about autocross/endurance provided that we're assuming a driver with the ability to exploit the theoretical performance of the car. This is emphatically true for RMIT but I wouldn't mind betting a relatively weaker driver would be quicker around the lap in a 600/4 with a lot of power than a nimble 450/1 simply because he'll straighten the thing up early and gain on the straights

    Geoff Interesting that you should almost bring up MotoGP. Since the 4-stroke formula has come in the emphasis has moved from carrying corner speed to being able to pick the bike up and get on the throttle early due to the increase in power relative to the grip. This is why you hear people talking about riders with 250cc riding styles (i.e. carrying lots of entry speed) struggling in the MotoGP class. Digressing further, Dany Pedrosa picks the bike up very early even in 250 and this is one of the many reasons why he should make the transition fairly well next year.

    Digressing further still, maybe we should called MRA and convince them to give us all copies of LTS and have a virtual-FSAE competition in the style of the Matlab programming contests? We issue everyone with a track map and see who can get the fastest lap. Maybe that would settle the debate...

    Ben
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