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Thread: Why do we need tyre data

  1. #1
    hey everyone,
    Ok i know that my question is noobish but i really need help. I keep hearing that to start the design we need the tyre data to be able to decide on the suspension system and other things. The thing is that i dont know why do i need the tyre data in 1st place, like how will it help me and most importantly how to utilize it.

    Thanks for your time and help in advance.

  2. #2
    Mar,

    The tires are the single most important piece of equipment on a race car. All of your lateral and longitudinal forces are reacted through the tires. Without proper tires, or proper knowledge of the tires' behaviour, you car will not reach its full potential, no matter how awesome the rest of it may be.

    That being said, your understanding of tire dynamics and tire data treatment is hugely important when designing a suspension system. Your tire data will tell you things like load sensitivity, coefficient of friction against slip angle, camber thrust, etc. It's up to you to decide how to best use the data.

    You'll find that in many aspects, suspension design is a compromise. There is no one single "best" suspension geometry, it's about finding what works best for your application.

    If you're interested in learning more about tires (and you should, they're awesome), check out chapter 2 of "Race Car Vehicle Dynamics" by Milliken & Milliken
    Matt Schroeder
    University of Calgary FSAE, Schulich Racing

    "Racing is life. Everything else is just waiting"

  3. #3
    You don't need it.

  4. #4
    Originally posted by exFSAE:
    You don't need it.
    Then why was it created?
    Carlos Vargas
    Florida Tech FSAE

  5. #5
    I guess everything is a choice, but tyre data would seem to rank as a big potential gain.

    Then again, I have to tack potential onto that.

    Makes me wonder though, if Goodyear has changed their tyre compounding and construction this year, what are the teams using them going off of without a TTC run?

    Mar-1: The Tyres chapter of Carroll Smith's Tune to win is a good place to start for introductory Tyre information, moving on to RCVD and other more in depth resources afterwards.
    University of Waterloo Formula Motorsports Alumni
    http://www.uwfsae.ca/

  6. #6
    Originally posted by cvargas:
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by exFSAE:
    You don't need it.
    Then why was it created? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I'm going to take a stab and guess that he meant "if you have to ask, then you don't need it."

    Just like all the teams that "need" pneumatic shifters, turbos, etc.
    Dr. Adam Witthauer
    Iowa State University 2002-2013 alum

    Mad Scientist, Gonzo Racewerks Unincorporated, Intl.

  7. #7
    Kinda.

    "Need" is a strong word. You need 4 wheels and an engine. You need an impact attenuator.

    Ultimately the goal of all this prep work leading up to a competition is to have a car that's fast / balanced / driveable / reliable / etc etc. Tire data and vehicle simulations can help you learn some things which hopefully lead to this end. However, it isn't necessary. Could get your car sorted by extensive track testing if you like.

    I'll also say that this kinda stuff can hurt you as much as help if you take everything at face value and/or rely on your simulations to just "optimize" some lap time or give you the end-all-be-all answer.

  8. #8
    You do not "need" the TTC tire data.

    Since this is an engineering competition, though, you need to understanding something (many things!) about your tires. There are other ways to gain this knowledge, but the TTC data fills a pretty large hole. Data on all other significant parts of the car can be obtained more easily. For example, you can dyno your engine or dampers at much less cost than force & moment testing your tires.

    Remember, a major goal of your vehicle design is to make best use of all four of your tires. They put the "F" in F=ma, so tires are very important.

    Here's another reason why the TTC exists: It has prevented a tire testing "arms race". When we founded the TTC in late-2004 there were several teams looking for ways to obtain data on their tires. By creating the TTC we have gone a long way toward eliminating "rich teams" having tire data while others do not. In short, tire F&M data was going to happen in the Formula competitions one way or another. We've tried to make a broader and more level playing field than would have happened without us.

    As exFSAE likes to remind everyone, the TTC data (like all tire force & moment data) has its quirks. There are as many pitfalls and ways to go wrong as there are positive applications of the data.

    The TTC data is one of the tools available to you. It can be very informative. It can give you a basis for many engineering calculations. It can add to an organized design --> build --> test --> evaluate cycle, but it cannot replace it. You certainly don't "need" it, and if you have it then you need to decide how to make good use of it. There are many possible ways to use the data.
    Dr. Edward M. Kasprzak
    President: EMK Vehicle Dynamics, LLC
    Associate: Milliken Research Associates, Inc.
    Co-Director: FSAE Tire Test Consortium
    Lecturer: SAE Industrial Lecture Program
    FSAE Design Judge

  9. #9
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Birmingham, England
    Posts
    765
    Do you need tyre data to build a competitive FSAE car that can win dynamic events - no.

    If you have the tyre data and understand it, can it help you make your car quicker - yes

    Will proper analysis of tyre data as part of the design event score you points - yes

    Will understanding the tyre data and how to process it help you justify why you should be employed in a vehicle dynamics role post FSAE - yes

    Ben
    -

  10. #10
    They put the "F" in F=ma, so tires are very important.
    Stealing a line from Claude here. "Tyres are 'F' important".

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