FSAE: The Sacrifices We Make

[CWA]

I write this to you, almost as unashamed procrastination from a looming deadline, the subject of which I am struggling to remain interested in.

Today, for the past four hours or so I have been scrolling through the forums reading up on all the latest FSAE discussions (I'm following the 'Suspension Design' thread in particular very closely). What I've just described is a perfect reflection of my life since September 2011, including all of last summer, and my uni life since the start of this academic year. It's fair to say, I've been hooked on Formula Student.

Last academic year, the work I did towards our University's Formula Student team at least counted for one of my module marks, a group "dissertation". This year, I am back at the University doing postgraduate study, and have decided to continue being involved with Formula Student (much like a heroin addict 'decides' to take their next hit). I'd be a complete liar if I didn't admit that a strong reason I returned to University (the same one, in particular) was to be involved in Formula Student again. This year, Formula Student counts for nothing towards my course. And I can see that this year, just as last year, the rest of my studies will suffer, perhaps greatly, due to this distraction.

I have never been great at moderation. I see my dedication to the team as a reflection of the kind of person I am. In most stages of my life, there has always been one main goal that I have been working towards at that particular time. In relation to that goal, everything else at that time has taken a back seat, nothing is as important. Usually these goals have in some way or another been associated with cars or other engineering projects! In the future when I look back at my time in University, I'm sure I will only remember Formula Student, and not a lot else.

Where I say Formula Student highlights the kind of person I am, I guess I also mean it highlights what motivates me. Doing personal project work, I may often lose drive, and question why it's relevant, and what I am really gaining from it. Knowing that what I do for Formula Student is (at least, what I hope is) valuable contribution to a team's common goal means so much more to me, and helps me complete that work with a much better attitude, with a higher level of commitment, and to a much better standard.

Anyway, I'll try and get to the point, as I know this is a bit of a gay post and not very engineering-ey. Firstly, I would like to know, not just how many people on these forums are in similar situations, where FS is completely extra-curricular, but how many of these people often question whether it is worth it. I'm imagining the story of Formula Student for many people is very similar to what is conveyed by Matt Brown's Racecar, as it is for me.

What I'd also like to know is, in everyone's personal opinion, do you think it is actually worth it? I know that fundamentally, time you enjoy wasting is not time wasted. If Formula Student is to be considered this way, then yes, it is worth it. But I'm also thinking of how a prospective employer will consider how a student's time has been spent on the project. As one example (not indicative of myself, just hypothetical) if a student, perhaps capable of graduating with distinction in their course, achieves less, but has dedicated much of their time to a project like Formula Student, how is this viewed in industry when that student is applying for a job? I imagine the answers from various industries may differ greatly, from OEM companies to race teams.

I often see posts from professionals on this forum. Some posters have names I recognise (ClaudeR, DougM, EdK, BillC, Ben, JTom et al), there are also some posters that you can tell have experience in some form of industry, usually just by descriptions of past experiences they have had. How valuable do you guys really see experience in Formula Student? Are there things you would like to see FS students have learnt throughout their time on the project which may serve as some compensation for the time it has cost them, time they could have spent on improving personal course-work and grades? Is there something that an FS student may have at the end of his/her experience that a 100% straight-A student may not?

To put this question into perspective, a lot of my postgraduate buddies question why I am again involved with the project this year, when it does not count towards my course. As you can tell, I have been asking myself the same thing! To put another spin on this question, might a student from a university that performs more successfully in FS events take more from the experience than a university that is often unsuccessful? How can a student doing FS ensure they get the most from the experience to help them in their future engineering career?

And to these same professionals, and others, how would the attributes I have described above be viewed by an engineering organisation looking to hire. Is admitting to being motivated more greatly by a team-based atmosphere regarded as important? Could my admission that I struggle to be motivated as much with personal research hinder me as a potential employee?

There is no way I can regret the time I have spent being involved with Formula Student. Even with the late nights, arguments, poor living conditions, and our poor performance at competition last year, I have loved it all. But until I move on to that next stage in my life, I will always be wondering if I made that magic 'right' decision!

I look forward to hearing some responses from you guys, keep up the good work

[UW-P Kevin]

I am at a University that has all of our SAE teams as purely extra-curricular actities with only undergraduates working on the vehicles (no graduate engineering here). We actually have FSAE, Baja, Snowmobile, and an Aero team at our school. Since almost all of our team members start as freshmen or sophomores in college, I don't think there is much questioning if it is worth it by the students that actually dedicate time to the project. Everyone gets to work on what they like to do.

Being a relatively small university, we don't have all the resources that some of the bigger schools have access to, so we have to inventively come up with solutions to our problems. Granted, we don't place as high in the standings, we get a ton of hands on experience out of this and learning above and beyond what we learn in the classroom. Our university is touted for the "hands-on" education that every student comes out of here with, but the extra in developing a vehicle and having designs fail that need to be fixed gives the extra leg up over most of the graduates.

It seems as though companies that hire our university's engineers like to hire students in SAE competitions because of the extra effort that they put toward a team project, even though the grades suffer somewhat. I know of a student on our team that got a Co-op based off of his experience even though he had one of the lowest GPA's among the candidates for the position. It helps.

[Matt S]

As a student of the University of Calgary (Alberta, Canada, for those not familiar), I can relate to your current situation with regards to the team. At the U of C, students receive no extra credit for participating in FSAE, and I'd be lying if I said that my time on Formula has not impacted my grades in a negative way. That being said, there are many academic benefits to be gained from the type of problem-solving encouraged in FSAE. As a senior member of the team, I spend a lot of my time educating younger members on vehicle dynamics, fluid mechanics, etc. and I've found that one of the best ways to reinforce one's own understanding of a subject is to teach it to others.

I am currently on a work term for a local engineering firm and I distinctly remember being told by my supervisors that seeing FSAE on my resume instantly made me a more viable candidate for the position. I may have been lucky that the engineers in charge of reading my resume were aware of the FSAE competition and the benefits that it provides to young engineers. However, if it had been an individual from a HR department that had read my resume, or an engineer not familiar with the competition, perhaps they would not understand the benefits offered by participating in FSAE.

I definitely understand your thoughts regarding the merit of participating in FSAE, and especially your doubts with continuing. Once crunch time hits in mid-may (we go to the Lincoln competition in late June), I've seriously contemplated leaving the team and enjoying the rest of my summer. I've also found myself at the beginning of September wondering where my summer has gone, only to realize that I spent half of it at the shop. Every time I start to have second thoughts, I think about what makes FSAE so important to me. Is it designing and building a race car? Yeah. Is it the valuable practical experience gained? Sure. Is it getting to meet and work with awesome people who share your interests? Absolutely. Is it getting to spend a few days surrounded by like minded people, with the smell of gasoline in the air and a sweet race car soundtrack? Definitely.

I guess it comes down to finding a reason behind why you choose to participate in FSAE. For me, I can't help but cite this video as best explaining my reasons.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJIWdLvUmcg

[Jon Burford]

I hear you,
I actually studied physics so FS was worth absolutely nothing to me from a grades perspective. I spent 3 years attending formula student most heavily in my second and third years. I managed to get a physics BSc project which was loosely based on FS, although it really had nothing to do with it.
I think you will find a lot of people did it and who are doing it for Love.
Matt, that's a good one,
this is my favourite

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGaYz5aLegc
Climb Dance

[Owen Thomas]

I think you are describing in yourself the typical FSAE addict. Obsessive personality, furiously motivated towards one thing in particular, and lacking passion elsewhere in life. As far as what you mention about team oriented goals being your biggest driver, I would echo that sentiment. I do not think it is the norm (or very common), but you are definitely not alone. Our program is also fully extra-curricular with no graduate students, and it is worth it (more below). I have learned and applied so much more about engineering during my time on the Formula team than in class that I am beginning to discredit a "regular" engineering degree. Obviously this is unwarranted, but the more I talk to other students and graduates not part of an SAE team the worse it seems to get.

Not being "in the industry", I can only provide my own opinions and experience, but I believe what you get out of Formula is entirely what you make of it. Having recently applied for and chosen an internship position, I can tell you that ~99% of employers around here haven't the faintest about FSAE. The way it was highlited on my resume was (sometimes) enough to get enough interest for an interview, but I did not do a good enough job of following that up. It certainly depends on the type of job and the industry it is in, but there were a number of occasions where I did not recieve a position in a design company because of "that C in ______", and it was fairly clear. One occasion in particular I can verify that a student with a higher GPA beat me out for a job, and I can definitely confirm that he is unable to think for himself, much less design rotating assemblies (I helped him with homework and briefly worked with him on our Formula team, it was painful). This does not irk me so much, since as an intern it is more likely that one will be performing pre-determined vibration analyses than actually designing anything, and also that it is my fault for not showcasing my experience, but it shows that GPA matters to some employers. Heck, some (larger) places have a policy to throw out applications below a certain GPA, and there simply ain't a thing you can do about it unless you know someone high enough in the company. In this case, where the potential employer is looking for good grades, it is your job to stuff your legitimate experience in thier face. Hopefully some of the people on this forum who have been in the opposite position can enlighten us all further.

TL;DR: I know that feel, bro. Also, GPA is important, but FSAE certainly can't hurt your chances.

[Cardriverx]

I will share my experiences. This is my 5th year on the team, and I am the president. I graduate in may. Our team is around 20 people, with a modest budget.

I will tell you that I have got my co-op thanks to FSAE. My experiences got me work at US Air and MoTeC, both great experiences (MoTeC being better as I am sure many of you can guess). I have met many people thanks to the team, and got to experience some awesome stuff.

If you can get past the initial screening, then yes I think it really helps. I can now say that I have had to manage a team of people with a fixed budget and completion date. How many new grads can say that?

We get no credit either, but if I did it all again I would be just as dedicated. Sure, my GPA suffered. Ill be honest, its a 2.5. But I have learned more doing this that I ever did in class, and ill make sure to explain that in interviews.

Overall, hell yeah its worth it. Heck, if you could graduate with a 3.5 and have been president of a team, you could probably get any job you want.

NOTE: I am applying in motorsports/car related jobs, so they know what FSAE is. Other industries, it may not help as much.

[Ben K]

Tbh I joined Formula cause I liked making things. Little did I know I'd end up liking race car engineering....

Ben

[Dash]

Storytime!

This is my 5th year on the team as well. Graduated in 4 years and now I'm back as a graduate student. The team is totally extra-curricular, although occasionally people do a DIS for 3 hours credit. The main reason I returned to do graduate school was to work on this project. I really couldn't care less about getting a masters degree - I just want to drive these cars! As others have said, I've thought about quitting a few times ( especially after we didn't finish building the car in time my junior year because the team fell apart), but I always remember how fun it is to drive the cars and the feelings you get at competition when you are doing good.

When I went for interviews back in the spring ( before I finally decided I would do graduate school ), I remember the interviews being strange. People didn't really know what the project was about and I probably sounded like an idiot blabbering on and on about the project. One interviewer asked me about the project and then asked me what I do in my spare time. I replied " FSAE is the only thing I do " and they looked at me like I was a psychopath. Needless to say they didn't call me back, but its probably for the best. On the other end of the spectrum, we have run into people at football tailgates that ask about the car and think its the best thing ever and give us business cards to call them.

I'm hoping that I end up getting a job that is similar to FSAE. Small company, lots of design work, hands on fab ( or at least get to watch and see results ). Its a stretch, but I'm sure there are jobs like that out there.

Anyway, I think FSAE is worth it just for the memories. I will never forget doing motor swaps at 2am the day before competition, figuring out someone designed the steering rack mounted in the wrong way, passing people in endurance, or doing burnouts in the parking lot at 1am during finals and just waiting for the campus cops to show up like they always do.

[Jay Lawrence]

FSAE has helped my career thus:
2008 - got scholarship for engineering work experience (part of our course) at a powerplant
2009 - got powerplant job out of work experience
2011 - got offered an engineering job at an automotive firm (didn't take it, they weren't offering the right things)
2011 - got a job at a consulting design firm, working with 3 other people (all ex-FSAE)

In all of the above cases, the companies were only interested in my grades in as much as I didn't fail too many subjects. Apart from that, all I talked about in the interviews was FSAE.

Just be wary though, unless you can find something that is just as awesome/involved/passionate, you will probably find yourself wanting to go back to FSAE...

[M. Nader]

Well, I am from Cairo University (Egypt). There was no FSAE here and no one even knew what it was, i did, and informed some colleges and started the team (with some help from a friend who liked the idea when i informed him).

It was a 2 year process from then as the first year we didn't really know what we were getting into and thus had to stop in the middle, regroup and come back for our first entry the year after.

As you would expect the education system here is not 5 star (not even close) and the facilities in the country are very much sub-par, there is absolutely no industry here except for very small things and so what we were getting into is much more difficult than most would face. There is absolutely no respect for students, machine workers mock you, professors are pretty much power hungry and with some if you as much dare as to ask to have a look at an exam mark you will lose coursework! and absolutely no one outside of your school would hear anything regarding FSAE and no industry owner will really care (as such skills are not of value in our country), i think most FSAE graduates are still unemployed or employed working in sales. And no student is allowed to do any machine/fabrication work, at school it is not allowed and outside of the school no one has the courage, time or the motive to teach. Actually for us to make FSAE work we were lucky enough to have (earn) the support of a few respected and in-authority professors in our school (the dean and his vices basically) and without those we would have been nowhere. so FSAE was 100% extra curricular for me. and the thing is in FSAE you wouldn't just be challenging the already existing mentality of elders but also students, nearly all of our team didn't agree that we should even try and do the actual machining of our parts and fought me long and hard and in the end i had to concede as i was outnumbered.

I spent my 2 years building and working on FSAE and i would say absolutely nothing else, i rarely studied and i used work from FSAE to present my final graduation project (and no one from the supervising board dared to ask me a single question as they didn't know what the hell i was talking about and didn't want to embarrass themselves), i rarely slept and was dedicated enough to lose nearly 30 pounds just to be in contention to driving our car in comp when it was running (it didn't run ). and i (or anyone in the team) have had 0 credit for doing so, not even a recommendation letter from our supervising professor who worked directly with me. and the team leader (who helped me start the whole thing) nearly had his degree canceled by our school and a lawsuit against him made for a delay from the shipping company we dealt with in bringing our car!

I would not substitute my last 2 years in school for anything else, yes i could have had a higher GPA among other luxuries i would have enjoyed, and yes i have had 0 recognition for the work but what i have learnt and improved upon personally is absolutely invaluable. FSAE was not a project, it was very much a lifestyle and a dedication. I gave up playing sports when entering the study engineering (i was in the national rowing champion team then), i gave up playing music somewhere during my studies, and for FSAE i gave up everything else .


I have now graduated (with a B- GPA) and will have to serve 1-3 years doing compulsory military service for my country in which i will not do a single engineering thing, and in a country with no engineering work this is hardly a problem for most. Lurking around here i would say the experience i have had is comparable to only what the Indian teams face when starting the project. and this forum is the only place i know to have a decent engineering discussion, and that is why i keep coming back.

I remember in another thread someone was asking what to do to enter FSAE, and one response was "if you really what to know how difficult FSAE is, go to an unknown school and start a team, you will learn a ton" and i couldn't agree more.



Sorry for the long post