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Thread: Wow...amazing how ignorant/blind some people are

  1. #51
    I have read this whole thread,

    And all i can say that the heading for the thread is no longer about the lady on the other end of the email conversation...it is now about the people in the thread, probably me included.

    I am from Australia...I feel safe, I don't carry a gun, never have, never will.

    I agree with Moke, it is kind of a gentlemans agreement, don't shoot us we wont shoot you.
    I have worked several retail postions...all at a cash register, the first thing about robberies we get told: Give them what they want. The reasoning behind it is: if they have their money why will they want to shoot you?

    I also agree with the fact there must be some form of social problem within the USA, I have never been I can't say what it is...remember I said must be, not there is...Here in oz we pride ourselves on being multi-cultural. So I am sorry VFR (as much as I do agree with your choice of bike...I ride a '95 model, red, it's sweet) I do not agree with your comparison with America to Europe in the fact that Europe are all the some people therefore they must have no tension. In Australia we are as diverse, or more than America is, we have immigration problems coming from every continent...except Antarctica. So I can not see how having different ethnic groups living next to each other is the sole cause of this violence.

    Actually I am not sure exactly what it is that is causing this violence. But I do feel that if guns were not so available in America I think that it would improve things a little...of coarse an overnight legislation change is not going to fix it. It will need to start with disarming those that do set out to do harm, remove the illigally gotten guns, then once the people feel safe offer to buy back their guns as they no longer need them. Just a suggestion. Might work, might not...

    Just another quick word...killing the crim, yeah he's a evil, but the 'I killed him so he didn't kill the other person' mentlity doesn't work 100%...hello, total death count is still going to be 1...I don't see an improvment. Now I hit him over the head with a chair, total death count: a couple of brain cells.

    Um I think thats all I wanted to say...hope I didn't sound like a jackarse, would be nice if this editing window was bigger...I feel like I have tunnel vision...

    Anyways, just voicing my opinion...in a country where we don't have guns but are still free and safe.

    Cheers,
    CASPAR

  2. #52
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    Originally posted by Caspar:
    I have read this whole thread,

    And all i can say that the heading for the thread is no longer about the lady on the other end of the email conversation...it is now about the people in the thread, probably me included.

    I am from Australia...I feel safe, I don't carry a gun, never have, never will.

    I agree with Moke, it is kind of a gentlemans agreement, don't shoot us we wont shoot you.
    I have worked several retail postions...all at a cash register, the first thing about robberies we get told: Give them what they want. The reasoning behind it is: if they have their money why will they want to shoot you?

    I also agree with the fact there must be some form of social problem within the USA, I have never been I can't say what it is...remember I said must be, not there is...Here in oz we pride ourselves on being multi-cultural. So I am sorry VFR (as much as I do agree with your choice of bike...I ride a '95 model, red, it's sweet) I do not agree with your comparison with America to Europe in the fact that Europe are all the some people therefore they must have no tension. In Australia we are as diverse, or more than America is, we have immigration problems coming from every continent...except Antarctica. So I can not see how having different ethnic groups living next to each other is the sole cause of this violence.

    Actually I am not sure exactly what it is that is causing this violence. But I do feel that if guns were not so available in America I think that it would improve things a little...of coarse an overnight legislation change is not going to fix it. It will need to start with disarming those that do set out to do harm, remove the illigally gotten guns, then once the people feel safe offer to buy back their guns as they no longer need them. Just a suggestion. Might work, might not...

    Just another quick word...killing the crim, yeah he's a evil, but the 'I killed him so he didn't kill the other person' mentlity doesn't work 100%...hello, total death count is still going to be 1...I don't see an improvment. Now I hit him over the head with a chair, total death count: a couple of brain cells.

    Um I think thats all I wanted to say...hope I didn't sound like a jackarse, would be nice if this editing window was bigger...I feel like I have tunnel vision...

    Anyways, just voicing my opinion...in a country where we don't have guns but are still free and safe.

    Cheers,
    CASPAR
    I think I've just realised why I've loved Australia both times I've been - it's like America without the guns

    Ben
    -

  3. #53
    Originally posted by Caspar:
    I have read this whole thread,

    And all i can say that the heading for the thread is no longer about the lady on the other end of the email conversation...it is now about the people in the thread, probably me included.

    I am from Australia...I feel safe, I don't carry a gun, never have, never will.

    I agree with Moke, it is kind of a gentlemans agreement, don't shoot us we wont shoot you.
    I have worked several retail postions...all at a cash register, the first thing about robberies we get told: Give them what they want. The reasoning behind it is: if they have their money why will they want to shoot you?

    I also agree with the fact there must be some form of social problem within the USA, I have never been I can't say what it is...remember I said must be, not there is...Here in oz we pride ourselves on being multi-cultural. So I am sorry VFR (as much as I do agree with your choice of bike...I ride a '95 model, red, it's sweet) I do not agree with your comparison with America to Europe in the fact that Europe are all the some people therefore they must have no tension. In Australia we are as diverse, or more than America is, we have immigration problems coming from every continent...except Antarctica. So I can not see how having different ethnic groups living next to each other is the sole cause of this violence.

    Actually I am not sure exactly what it is that is causing this violence. But I do feel that if guns were not so available in America I think that it would improve things a little...of coarse an overnight legislation change is not going to fix it. It will need to start with disarming those that do set out to do harm, remove the illigally gotten guns, then once the people feel safe offer to buy back their guns as they no longer need them. Just a suggestion. Might work, might not...

    Just another quick word...killing the crim, yeah he's a evil, but the 'I killed him so he didn't kill the other person' mentlity doesn't work 100%...hello, total death count is still going to be 1...I don't see an improvment. Now I hit him over the head with a chair, total death count: a couple of brain cells.

    Um I think thats all I wanted to say...hope I didn't sound like a jackarse, would be nice if this editing window was bigger...I feel like I have tunnel vision...

    Anyways, just voicing my opinion...in a country where we don't have guns but are still free and safe.

    Cheers,
    CASPAR
    I've done the whole clerk thing. Sold car parts for a living before I got my head on straight and went back to school. The corporates had the same theory of giving them what they want. Did we (the people that were risking having a loaded gun pointed at our face) agree with that? Hell no. We brought pistols, and occasionally a shotgun. I refuse to let my life dangle in what you call a gentleman's agreement.

    If they are such gentleman, then why are they robbing me or pointing a gun at me to start with? And I know that they won't kill me even after I co-operate how? I don't, nor will I tolerate the crime. Letting them have what they want only encourages the behavior. Consequences that are severe, and real, deter the behavior.

    The problem with that, is we're using logic to describe what an illogical person will do. People have been killed for $5, even after they gave over everything they had. Doesn't seem too logical to me.

    The cultures between America and Europe vary greatly, and at least here in America, it can vary completely in a matter of 10 city blocks. Feeling safe to you're screwed is an invisible line that's always moving, and last I checked those that wish to do harm to others have mobility and the means to act on the means of violence they wish to do.

    Caspar, put yourself in that same situation, some guy with a gun is ready to kill you or a loved one. Do you clock him upside the head with a chair, and piss him off, and still risk him doing his original intentions? Or, do you kill him, and know that you and your loved ones are safe, but the person that was out with evil intent is no longer walking around the population?

    From personal experiance, I know that drugs bring crime. Often times, violent crime. The drugs are illegal, and aren't even supposed to be in this country, but there they are, on street corners everywhere, and the dealers and druggies trying to wage a war on those that want to keep their neighborhood clean and their kids safe.

    I'm one of those that are active in doing anything I can to reduce crime where I live, and will probably become extremely active on the streets come summer time when school's out. Walking around as a volunteer in a shirt that says 'POLICE' on it unarmed (or armed with a close range contact weapon) where drugs are being delt, with people infiltrating your community that will do anything to get high is sheer stupidity.

    Do I feel safe in my neighborhood or in my car? Yes. Downtown? Not so much. On campus? Not so much. I'm not going to stop going about my life because I'm in fear of what some stranger will do, but I will take preperations to make sure that I go home to my family every night.

    Pepper spray does't garantee that.
    Campus policies left students shooting back with camera phones. Life's worth more than pictures.
    www.ConcealedCampus.com

  4. #54
    Marko, Violence and murder are, in my mind's eye, part of being humans.
    <snip>
    How is a social issue, as is the frequency, but why is a genetic issue that will never be solved.
    Selection tends to mitigate the effects of faulty genes? In times gone by those who had physical faults would have died early/not reproduce as prolifically. Those with mental faults* would soon find themselves sidelined, institutionalised, lynched, or hounded onto a boat headed west...

    *fault = trait that society deemed undesireable in general circulation, say: odd behaviour, genius/madness, violence, oddball cliques/religions for the scenarios above?

    What then, do you think it is about US society that gives people the desire to cause violence?
    Back to being semi-serious though, I think a few of the posts have touched on a couple of relevant things:

    Violence and the wealth gap

    The US is pretty violent. Brazil and South Africa are it's two main rivals in terms of competing for the dubious honour of absolute level and frequency of the violence associated with everyday living. The share some common features, of interest in this case, the gap between those who have and those who have not, or the distribution of wealth. Also, the fact that unless you have the means to pay you will essentially be left for dead. Europe and Aus have a decidedly smaller wealth gap and are a damn sight more humanistic in terms of healthcare. (relative value of reward)/(relative risk) - I reckon this begins to corellate with violence/crime, especially if you add a (1)/(prospects otherwise) as a multiplier?


    Geography, people and the land gap

    Europe has lots of small countries. Even in 'the middle of nowhere', you're still relatively close to each other. The US is enormous, and far more clustered in population terms than Europe. Europe has many languages, many cultures, many different groups of people. It has history. It's *far* less homogenous than the US, where even if you pick nationality, ethnicity, religion - or east coast/west-coast/nowhere - the people all share the same old came there to escape persecution or for the opportunity to make their $$$s and have the same bloody shops 'n' buildings 'n' no bloody history. (except for a few of the nicer bits - hmmm) Europeans have passports and use them, Americans don't. Europeans live in little houses, Americans love their isolation. Europeans are only too happy to tell you what they think but sure as hell won't give away anything personal - Americans are the opposite.

    ---All I've heard so far when I ask "why do you think this happens more in the US" I get "dunno"---
    ^^^A US phenomenon in my experience

    Ok - I'm using a fairly huge tar-brush here, but in my experience it is infinitely easier to hate somebody or a group of people if you've never met them or been exposed to them. Isolating one's self, never actually telling people what you think, never exposing yourselves to them. Helps de-humanise that person/group of people, which makes violence that bit easier?

    Anybody care to expand/knock back this line of thinking by extending it to Aussies, elsewhere?


    Also:


    The sheen and the American dream?

    It's all a load of cock for the majority of the population, isn't it? What is the American dream these days? Not just for the bay area web-dude. Not just for the higher-educated frat-boy. Not just for the smart migrant out to make their money. Everybody else. Disney is more reality-correct than the thin veneer that is the American dream sold in word, print and moving pictures worldwide, and I can imagine feeling cheated by that would hurt some. The UK certainly has some issues with (expectation)/(reality) too, but it isn't as connected to the national identity as it would apear to be in the US.

    What is the dream vs the reality and what else might affect how you feel with your lot in life?



    FWor what it's worth, personaly I'd buy this:

    Problem is, in Europe and New Zealand, etc, we have the same TV, the same movies, the same immigration and terrorism problems, so your cultural arguments fall a bit flat.

    The other argument I'm hearing is "guns don't kill people, people do" (I thought it was rappers BTW Wink ) but seriously how dumb is that?

    If someone wants to kill some people and you make a gun easily avaialble they can. If someone wants to kill lots of people and they can't get a gun it's physically impossible. They could try a knife, but that's easier to deal with.

    I understand the historic reasons for America's cultural need to carry weapons, but statistically it is resulting in more of your citizens dieing. If you're happy with the murder rate fine - I'll leave you to it and stick to Monterrey rather than downtown LA when I'm over for the Laguna GP - but if you're not you need to have a long hard think about what it is about your society that makes this happen so often compared to the rest of the world.
    --
    Marko

  5. #55
    Originally posted by markocosic:
    too damn much to read twice in a row
    "Those with mental faults* would soon find themselves sidelined, institutionalised, lynched, or hounded onto a boat headed west... "

    Haha, we still kicked your organized asses back east. Then again, before we had the saps we have now in our political machines, those that would normally not be with us drove themselves into the ground, and out of the way for the rest of us.

    In all seriousness, thanks for your insight, and essentially proving that guns don't have a damn thing to do with it
    Campus policies left students shooting back with camera phones. Life's worth more than pictures.
    www.ConcealedCampus.com

  6. #56
    Haha, we still kicked your organized asses back east
    Not with a name like mine...

    In all seriousness, thanks for your insight, and essentially proving that guns don't have a damn thing to do with it
    Nothing to do with the motivators/roots of it all I'll agree - that's in the hands of people. Nothing to do with people being shot is not the intended take on it though - they're very much down as everything to do with people being shot, and handguns in particular.
    --
    Marko

  7. #57
    Hey Mike, One question, I am very curious about.

    You have quite obviously expressed your desire to have a concealed weapon as a form of protection. There have been other posts on here mentioning ownership of a firearm for the purpose of sport (here in Aus I have mates with the same purpose, rifles for sport).

    But you seem only to boast the advantages of a handgun.

    My Question is this:

    If you lived in a place like Australia or New Zealand, where we have both expressed that we have never felt the need to carry a weapon, would you still feel the need to carry a weapon?

    I ask this because you mentioned you don't feel safe on campus. The fact amazed me and seriously threw me into the ignorant/blind pile. Even in light of recent events I could not fathom the need for the heavy protection anywhere especially on campus.

    Oh and markocosic, I agree if you don't know a person/group and their emmediate ideals don't agree with your own then it will take time, and it may turn out the ideals are the same just each person goes about it a different way.

  8. #58
    Caspar,

    If you were to just straight up transplant me, I absolutely would feel the need. After all, you guys already said that crime still happens, and peopel are still held up with weapons, and sometimes those weapons are guns.

    If you transplanted me over there from birth, who knows, but having seen and experianced what I have, I carry my pistol with me everywhere I can.

    I feel safe in my home. I carry my gun on my hip there. I feel safe in my friend's homes, and around their kids (who I may as well be Uncle Mike to). I still carry a gun on my hip, and they're well off the beaten path. I feel safe at the police station I go to every Thursday. I'm barred by law from carrying in there, but I still carry on the drive to, and when I'm inside there is at least one person who, like myself, has a gun and is trained to use it for defense.

    We have no clue who is out there in the world, what their intentions are, nor where they are. If I'm ever put in a situation where my life is in danger, I won't hesitate for a second to draw and shoot untill the threat is eliminated, then call 911(or, as I like to call it, the Government Sponsored dial-a-prayer), report the shooting in self defense, and wait for the police to get there and do their investigation.

    Why should I let my life be molded, and hang in the hands of somebody who's threatening to take it away from me?

    As far as the handgun vs. rifles/sporting, etc., I like shooting long guns more, however I'm extremely limited by caliber because of the available places to shoot and am restricted to .22's and plinking, I plan to try skeet/trap later this year.

    It's called a Concealed Handgun License, so I'm not allowed to carry a long gun that offers the same benefits, and is more accurate. The downside that is unless you're running a carbine using pistol ammo, you'd likely go right through the threat and into an innocent bystander.

    So for defense, unless home by yourself and using weakly loaded rounds, with your neighbors gone, I wouldn't advocate defense with a rifle if a pistol is available. Nor would I advocate a shotgun with anything heavier than #5 or #6 shot for the same purpose.
    Campus policies left students shooting back with camera phones. Life's worth more than pictures.
    www.ConcealedCampus.com

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