Rule Changes to Mix Things Up

[Dr. Bob Woods]

What I would like to see is to have the event in Detroit, have the event in California, do not allow a team to register for both, and then have an event at SCCA Nationals in Topeka in September to determine bragging rights for the overall winner.

We could dispense with all of the static judging and just have a score composed of the Solo II time and a special event just for FSAE. We don't have a metric for slalom in FSAE, nor for braking. We use a combined skid-pad (150 ft and 50 ft in a figure 8) with a slalom on one leg and a chicane on the other.

I think it is too late for this year to restrict registration in both events, but that is what I would like to see this evolve to. You are right, SCCA Nationals is a great opportunity to be around the best drivers in the country. They love our cars and the involvement with FSAE. There is a lot of attention given to that event. I think ours would add to it.

If you agree with this, let your opinions be heard so I can work on SAE to make it happen.

-Dr. Bob Woods
UTA

[Big Bird]

I'll reserve full judgement until I've read all the posts on this thread,(I've only read your intitial post Denny). But to be honest, I don't think rule changes are really necessary. There is plenty of scope for different designs, and I don't believe we have converged on a single, must-do solution to succeed in this comp. I think the continued success of some teams is more to do with their project management more than any design decisions they make.

But I've got five pages of posts to read, so I might change my mind yet.....

Cheers all

[Kamil S]

I do feel Mike's pain though... would it be too hard to bump the competition into the second week of june or so for finals sake?

[Denny Trimble]

I think Dr. Woods is really on to something here! I'd love to see the big trophy be awarded at Nationals. That would really be something.

The courses are completely different from what's in the FSAE rulebook, but the event fits the "concept of the competition" perfectly: build a car for the weekend autocrosser. A weekend autocrosser who has $25k to spend on an autocross-only car will definitely take it to Nationals!

[Dave M]

Im with Dr. Bob on this one. Lets see how many cars start running aero if this happens. Nationals is usually considered very fast as far as autocrossing goes too.

[Kevin Hayward]

Speaking form an interantional competitors perspective I don't like the idea of the SCCA Nationals as a form of FSAE finals. Not being able to travel to an international design competition would be a big turn-off. We have learnt so much from the design event (and other statics) in the US in the last two years of travelling.

In addition I doubt we could gather as much sponsor support for travelling as we have if were were just travelling to a race.

This is a bit of a selfish post. The SCCA National event would probably be a really good final for the US teams. I dont think it is good for the international teams. I guess it depends on how the SAE want the event to go.

The more thought I put into the whole rules issue the more I see how they are really quite balanced. Hard-core garage junkies complain that the design event etc are too subjective. Future vehicle dynamicists complain that too many points are given for driver dependant events. However if results show anything in order to win an FSAE event you need to have a lot of areas covered. Every flavour of engineering has some sort of importance in the final score.

Kev

[D-Train]

I really don't like the idea of changing the rules in any way that limits their decisions, i.e with specific engines, tyres, etc. I think one of the best things about this competition is the freedom you really have in some areas. That said, i'd like more freedom with things like engine selection - diesels, rotaries, etc.

I like the idea of putting emphasis on design, but the enduro can act as some good validation of your designs. Maybe less emphasis on autocross, or the influence of driver skill on overall rankings.

I think for now the rules do justice for the competition, but it might be interesting to see things shaken ip a little.

[Eddie Martin]

There is always a lot of talk about "the weekend autocrosser" and how the tracks are too slow etc. but we all know what the rules (track specs) are and what to expect at a competition. I assume people design these vehicles for an fsae competition and not for the weekend SCCA autocrosser. If we were really designing them for someone to take to an SCCA style autocross every other weekend they would be completely different animals.

People also keep going on about "a real autocross", well the events at an fsae competition are real. The speeds may be a bit lower but they must be for safety. It would be no use designing a car to run on a super speedway when you know the race is on a 1/4 mile oval and then spending your time complaining it is not a "real oval".

Got to agree with Geoff's points. At the Claude Rouelle seminars he has a 10 point pyramid about the keys to a successful racing team. The top 3 most important things were management, individual skills and team spirit. If you aren't scoring 800 points or more at a competition it isn't the rules or the established teams that is the problem rather these 3 points, in my opinion.

Don't get me wrong I think going to extra events to run these cars is great but it should always be secondary to the main competition. As I said before the only things I think could be changed is a further streamlining of the cost event, a better structure to the design events outside the usa and maybe some tinkering with the autox scoring.

How about this for something controversial, a maximum weight of 550 lbs for non first year cars.

[JesseN]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Denny Trimble:
Several teams already make the trip to Nationals. There is an FSAE class, and it's a lot of fun! We'd go again if we had the funds. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

5 or 6 teams out of 140 is usually all that show up. And then UTA usually has 3 cars running. I think it would be really cool if we could increase the number of schools to 20-30.

[JesseN]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Eddie Martin:
There is always a lot of talk about "the weekend autocrosser" and how the tracks are too slow etc. but we all know what the rules (track specs) are and what to expect at a competition. I assume people design these vehicles for an fsae competition and not for the weekend SCCA autocrosser. If we were really designing them for someone to take to an SCCA style autocross every other weekend they would be completely different animals.

People also keep going on about "a real autocross", well the events at an fsae competition are real. The speeds may be a bit lower but they must be for safety. It would be no use designing a car to run on a super speedway when you know the race is on a 1/4 mile oval and then spending your time complaining it is not a "real oval".
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

According to the '05 rules, the Enduro limitations on speeds are awfully close to what you would see at SCCA Nationals, with speeds maybe moved up only 5 mph. The actual autocross portion of FSAE is slower, but the reasoning behind that isn't really clear, at least to me.

For example, my production car that's capable of ~1.2 lateral G steady state in race trim never hit more than ~54 mph on either course at the 2003 or 2004 SCCA Nationals. So with the enduro already allowing speeds of 65mph, I can't imagine FSAE going "much" faster than that at SCCA Nationals, even with aero and a huge power to weight advantage over my car. Maybe UTA or another team present at either year has some better data to compare what a real FSAE would be doing?

Also, I would think that instead of waiting till Saturday to run a "FSAE" day, see if there's the possibility to run on Monday, the day before the National Championship. The National staff is already there, since the ProSolo Finale is the weekend prior, and the coures are already setup Sunday night, so everything would be ready to go and the people in place.