<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by theTTshark:
I normally wouldn't write a response this long but I find that your last paragraph is a bit condescending (maybe not in intent but certainly in writing over the internet), so I feel especially driven to write a full response. I have no problem with someone disagreeing with my opinions regarding Formula SAE course design (or anything for that matter because at the end of the day everything is just an opinion except for the basic rules of nature), but we're always going to have people complaining about this and that especially in a competitive event like racing. It is not our job as engineers to say to those complaining that they do not have the right to complain, but it is our job to investigate and discuss these outside options to potentially find solutions to problems we hadn't thought of ourselves. I find that in every complaint, there is at the bottom of it, a problem, even if it is microscopic. As I have discussed above, the courses are what they are not because of the rules, but because of poor course design and implementation. At it's core this is indeed complaining, but on another level this leads to a discussion about where the future of courses can lead even within current rule sets. Which could lead to courses that are arguably easier for everybody to drive. I think the point here is, yes we all can't have it our way, but we are all entitled to our opinions. That's why I'm so interested in why you believe that my opinion should be silenced.
BTW, I believe that at least on a dynamics level we have proven that we can win or come close to winning on these autocross tracks, as your team has as well. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm sorry that you felt my last paragraph was condescending, that was not my intent.
For many years the FSAE rules read differently:
"1.2 Vehicle Design Objectives
For the purposes of this competition, the students are to assume that a manufacturing firm has engaged them to design, fabricate and demonstrate a prototype car for evaluation as a production item. The intended sales market is the nonprofessional weekend autocross racer...."
Some people complained about the premise. Some, like you, felt the FSAE autocross course should be representative of an SCCA course. Others felt fuel economy/efficiency an unnecessary part of the competition, after all, weekend autocrossers don't care about fuel economy.
What did SAE do? They dropped the above wording, and replaced it, making the purpose of the competition explicit. You are designing cars for FSAE dynamic events.
Of course they kept the "weekend autocrosser" premise for the presentation, the market for selling cars to other FSAE teams is pretty small (actually, given the rules, precisely zero ).
To tell the truth, when I think of the cars that Kansas has brought to competition, I see cars that are designed to win FSAE competitions. They also happen to be good at SCCA autocross. Not the other way around.
Now, back to our regularly scheduled pot stirring.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Z:
So, all FSAE aero students;
1. Get that picture of the "high rear wing" out of your minds.
2. "Streamline" your car (good for Fuel Efficiency ). Try a central cigar shaped fuselage, and add four tear-drop shaped wheel-pods at the corners. (And as long as there is nothing specific against these wheel-pods in the rules, DO NOT accept any arbitrary "spirit of the rules" bulldust bans from the scrutineers.)
3. Generate ALL your downforce from an "aero undertray". This approach is relatively lightweight, it lowers CG, and it generates negligible drag for tyre popping downforce (the rotating wheels will give more drag).
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Easy to pontificate from the armchair, but in practice, very difficult to implement. Aero undertrays on FSAE cars are complicated by:
1) inability to use any kind of side skirt to seal the sides
2) typically rough FSAE autocross and endurance surfaces that cause a lot of variation in vertical distance to ground for sprung undertrays
3) nasty vehicle dynamics considerations for unsprung undertrays
4) high yaw rates means that when you need the downforce, the air is coming in at an off angle. This complicates simulation (you now need a full car model) and becomes nearly impossible to physically validate under controlled conditions.
Now back to the original question:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kevin Hayward:
I thought I would post this as some positive feedback. It appears that the recent changes to the rules have improved FSAE quite a lot. I am mainly referring to the aerodynamic changes allowing sharper trailing edges, more plan area, and moving wings. A couple of main design considerations have changed:
- After removing most of the advantages for 4 cylinder engines through more points to fuel economy, aero returns some of that advantage by allowing teams with more power to take advantage of more downforce (due to being able to carry more drag). The recent changes have made it possible for cars to have too much drag relative to the power, which is a good thing. This might have a side effect of more teams trying to do custom engines.
- Aero development simply can't be ignored now. While teams may not decide to make aero packages some of their competitors will. As a result teams almost by default have to consider whether or not to run aero, rather than dismissing the possibility all together. Aero should be more prominent in design discussions. This is good as a fundamental area of mechanical engineering is in the forefront of students minds.
- for cars that go aero weight is now even more important, given that your downforce divided by your car weight will be the grip modifier.
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In my opinion, the new aero rules go too far. I think there was already a substantial advantage to aero under the old rules. Most teams declined to do aero due to logistical considerations. Under the new rules, again IMHO, aero is going to be necessary (but not sufficient) to win a major competition. The better teams will adjust, the lesser teams will fall further behind. Anyone can run CFD, but there will be an even larger advantage to teams with wind tunnel access.
That said, we're of course working on bigger wings.