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Thread: Monash 2003 is rolling

  1. #21
    tis all good big daddy..

    i'm just having a joke about it all (not ruffled nor trying to pick on you or charlie)

    (the wings debate has been fast and furious up to now)

    i think charlie was basically trying to point out that ... adding mass ANYWHERE on the car is bad .. especially where it adds dramatically to MMOI.. extra especially above the CG.. and extra extra especially when unsprung mass..

    so yeah i guess the tradeoff is

    downforce (plus perhaps aesthetics) ((downforce being vastly different to unsprung mass.. inertial effects))

    VS

    the above mentioned (plus cost and complexity)

    regards

    Frank

    ps... or i could be drunk on gumleaves again

    [This message was edited by Frank on September 10, 2003 at 04:30 PM.]

  2. #22
    What I am saying is, in the exception of unorthodox tire characteristics, extra mass ALWAYS reduces performance, in cornering too! You never want extra mass on the car, especially (like Frank said) unsprung or high-centered.

    If you didn't realize this you need to pick up a good vehicle dynamics book soon.

    I wasn't trying to pick on your statement, I was just curious whether you had a different reason for wanting more mass (something I wasn't aware of, especially as it pertains to tires).

    -Charlie Ping
    Auburn University FSAE
    5th Overall Detroit 2003
    ? Overall Aussie 2003.
    -Charlie Ping

    Auburn FSAE Alum 00-04

  3. #23
    I agree with you charlie but not having enough mass on your tires be it where ever could have adverse handling charicteristics. I have dealt plenty with vehicle dynamics just not pertaining to formula style. Most of my experience comes with 12 inches of ground clearance and jumping them a few feet off the ground. The transition is being able to think in two dimensions (formula) from my usual 3 dimension offroad experience. PS wings offroad are just there to get ripped off.
    "A woman is a lot like a beer, they look good, smell good, and you would run over your own mother to get one." Homer Simpson


  4. #24
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Daddy:
    I agree with you charlie but not having enough mass on your tires be it where ever could have adverse handling charicteristics. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I disagree As long as that mass would be applying a lateral force you are better off getting rid of it! Now aero's benefits are that you can have the tires see more 'mass' without the lateral loading. Your statement disagrees with vehicle dynamic fundamentals.

    -Charlie Ping
    Auburn University FSAE
    5th Overall Detroit 2003
    ? Overall Aussie 2003.
    -Charlie Ping

    Auburn FSAE Alum 00-04

  5. #25
    geeze, i make one grumpy post late at night and look what happens! have you found these two threads yet big daddy? got wings (ignore page one, its just flames)
    wings topic, and a quote from this one: "So we expect a grand total of around 90kg (200lbs) at 40km/h, or about half the weight of your car." 40kph = average speed of a fsae car...
    thats got a ton of data.


    and for some debate on tire characteristics, and the fact that toronto run their fattest drivers is skidpan see delft car thread. this thread sort of proves the importance of having tire data, cause no-one really knows whats better in skidpan, more or less weight! actually, i read an interesting article in july '03 racecar engineering. it basically said that a tire's CoF decreases with increasing load because the tire overheats. you guys think this happens in fsae?

    actually, this forum is already hard enough to find any data in. ill post that up under the delft thread, and if you have any comments, post them on the delft thread.

    - if it isnt coming, you need a bigger tool.
    - ARC '04 member (now retired ) - Bling Bling Competition winners FSAE-A '04 (and design winners)

  6. #26
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
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    372
    I need to fix up a few of those posts in the wings thread, a couple of our team misread our wind tunnel data last year and posted overly high numbers for our downforce, as seen above in Gugs quote.

    The actual result was more like 40-50kg at 40km/h, with the hard part being acurately quantifying the contribution of the front wing in ground effect and the underbody diffusers. We have plans to measure them using different methods this year given some specialised testing equipment and a good venue.

    The new aero package should develop about the same amount of downforce, as the wings are bigger but we have dropped the diffusers.

    Regards,

    Scott Wordley

    http://www-personal.monash.edu.au/~fsae
    Regards,

    Scott Wordley


    Scoring in every event for the last 12 comps running!
    http://www.monashmotorsport.com/

  7. #27
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    372


    More pictures of the car in a more complete state taken the other day while on display for the SAE Aero Conference.

    Same Link:
    http://www-personal.monash.edu.au/~fsae/03build.htm

    Can never have enough carbon I say.

    Regards,

    Scott Wordley

    http://www-personal.monash.edu.au/~fsae
    Regards,

    Scott Wordley


    Scoring in every event for the last 12 comps running!
    http://www.monashmotorsport.com/

  8. #28
    Scott,

    I was wondering if you could give us a square footage of those wings?
    "A woman is a lot like a beer, they look good, smell good, and you would run over your own mother to get one." Homer Simpson


  9. #29
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    372
    They're about 1400mm span and 400mm / 700mm chords respectively.

    So about 17 square feet I think.
    Lots.

    Regards,

    Scott Wordley

    http://www-personal.monash.edu.au/~fsae
    Regards,

    Scott Wordley


    Scoring in every event for the last 12 comps running!
    http://www.monashmotorsport.com/

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