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Thread: Team recruitment and transition

  1. #1

    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Bacchus Marsh, Victoria, AUSTRALIA
    Posts
    12
    In the past at Deakin Uni, the car has been designed, built and raced by final year engineering students who leave the subsequent year taking all they learnt with them. It's usually a few keen 3rd years that take over the show and run with it the following year. This is less than ideal as the guys making the major decisions have only at the very most the experience of one competition and I feel this is why Deakin has had a lack of design "evolution" showing up with vastly different designs year in year out. Unfortunatly, this year will be no exception. We are working to change it but I'd like to know how other uni's do it.

    Do academic staff fully support the FSAE program and encourage 1st years to get involved or is it up to the team to recruit?
    Do you have subjects available devoted to FSAE as part of your course?
    Does the university supply most of your resources or are you left to your own devices to seek sponsorship?
    Does your Faculty Advisor guide the team towards a particular design? Is that why some teams have similar cars year after year?
    We (the students) like to think we make the decisions but do you have complete freedom or do you need to convince staff before you can head in a different design direction?
    What process is in place for the transition from one years team to the next?
    Are your teams made up of much more than just engineering students? ie jounalist, web designers, commerce, marketing, graphic artists, etc. Our team is all engineers with one exception.


    Cheers,

    Aaron Harnden
    Phantom Engineering
    Chief Design Engineer 2004

    I may not always be right, but i'm never wrong...

  2. #2

    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Bacchus Marsh, Victoria, AUSTRALIA
    Posts
    12
    In the past at Deakin Uni, the car has been designed, built and raced by final year engineering students who leave the subsequent year taking all they learnt with them. It's usually a few keen 3rd years that take over the show and run with it the following year. This is less than ideal as the guys making the major decisions have only at the very most the experience of one competition and I feel this is why Deakin has had a lack of design "evolution" showing up with vastly different designs year in year out. Unfortunatly, this year will be no exception. We are working to change it but I'd like to know how other uni's do it.

    Do academic staff fully support the FSAE program and encourage 1st years to get involved or is it up to the team to recruit?
    Do you have subjects available devoted to FSAE as part of your course?
    Does the university supply most of your resources or are you left to your own devices to seek sponsorship?
    Does your Faculty Advisor guide the team towards a particular design? Is that why some teams have similar cars year after year?
    We (the students) like to think we make the decisions but do you have complete freedom or do you need to convince staff before you can head in a different design direction?
    What process is in place for the transition from one years team to the next?
    Are your teams made up of much more than just engineering students? ie jounalist, web designers, commerce, marketing, graphic artists, etc. Our team is all engineers with one exception.


    Cheers,

    Aaron Harnden
    Phantom Engineering
    Chief Design Engineer 2004

    I may not always be right, but i'm never wrong...
    Aaron Harnden
    Phantom Engineering
    Chief Design Engineer 2004

    I may not always be right, but i'm never wrong...

  3. #3
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aaron Harnden:
    Do academic staff fully support the FSAE program and encourage 1st years to get involved or is it up to the team to recruit?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    Pretty much 100% up to the team
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Do you have subjects available devoted to FSAE as part of your course?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    No.
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
    Does the university supply most of your resources or are you left to your own devices to seek sponsorship?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    Depends on your definition of resources. Facilities and tools are definitely a huge resource. We've gotten university $$ the last 2 years, but to get the job done we raise quite a bit of money and supplies on our own.
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Does your Faculty Advisor guide the team towards a particular design? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>No, definitely not.
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Is that why some teams have similar cars year after year? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I don't think so, I think when a car is good there is resistance to change. But experienced teamers know there is always room for improvement.
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>We (the students) like to think we make the decisions but do you have complete freedom or do you need to convince staff before you can head in a different design direction?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Design is totally up to us, as it should be. This is not a faculty design competition and faculty should only offer advice. In some rare cases I think the faculty should intervene (a single student trying to dominate the design process for example).
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>What process is in place for the transition from one years team to the next?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Pretty much nothing. Though we try to document well, we haven't done a very good job.
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Are your teams made up of much more than just engineering students?

    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Right now, almost 100% MEs, though the occasional 'other' major comes along

    Experience matters. Get undergrads involved in the design process!!

    -Charlie Ping

    I just need enough to tide me over until I need more.
    -Charlie Ping

    Auburn FSAE Alum 00-04

  4. #4
    Yeah, Charlie's right about experience. Get some Sophomores and Juniors hooked, take them to competition, give them the big red key to the car during summer, and watch what happens next year. Good stuff!

    University of Washington Formula SAE ('98, '99, '03, '04)
    Alumni, University of Washington
    Structural / Mechanical Engineer, Blue Origin

  5. #5
    Charlie,

    From what you wrote in your reply it would seem that mainly postgrads do the design?

    In our case it is the undergrads that do a lot of the design and usually as part of a final yr project.....i'm interested to know if thats the norm with other unis as well?

    cheers

    ash

    The edge is not the limit it is mearly the beginning!

    Deakin University Phantom Engineering Team Captain
    The edge is not the limit it is mearly the beginning!

    Deakin University

  6. #6
    No sorry, what I meant by undergrads is non-seniors. We have never had any graduate students directly involved in our design work. Though we have a couple team alumni grad students now that can offer some advice, they are really too busy with thier grad work.

    -Charlie Ping

    I just need enough to tide me over until I need more.
    -Charlie Ping

    Auburn FSAE Alum 00-04

  7. #7
    First, Cornell does run very much like you do already - qualified seniors are team leaders and we have a number of excellent one-year professional master's students, especially on electrical systems. They all leave, and we're forced to start from scratch again.

    This is mitigated by the fact that we know this and plan for it in advance. So, at present, juniors (3rd year) are stepping up to take over various leadership responsibilities (e.g., crew chief while driving, competition preparation, assisting with design presentations, etc.) and ideally are ready to go by the beginning of their senior year.

    That said, the adjustment is sometimes smooth, sometimes bumpy, and really difficult to predict from the year before. The team didn't do a very good job priming future leaders last year and I expected some serious adjustments this year as a result. Turns out they didn't need it really - they're started off solid and got better still. Probably one of the more cohesive leadership groups I've seen here.

    On to questions asked:

    ***
    Do academic staff fully support the FSAE program and encourage 1st years to get involved or is it up to the team to recruit?
    ***

    We started a program this year that adopts freshmen (1st year) as volunteers, not full team members. This allows freshmen to commit to a lesser degree of involvement and adjust to the university and the team. We had problems burning people out in the past. A former team leader and I agreed that 2.5-3 years is about all you can expect - the rare 4-year folk tend to be burnt out by the end.

    ***
    Do you have subjects available devoted to FSAE as part of your course?
    ***

    FSAE is a course in its own right. Otherwise the curriculum tends to be more theoretical than applied, with a couple of exceptions that tend to be at advanced levels.

    ***
    Does the university supply most of your resources or are you left to your own devices to seek sponsorship?
    ***

    We receive (and have to fight for) space, which we share with others. Beyond that, our budget is all sponsorship. Our big-name sponsors are acquired in partnership with the alumni development people though, if for no other reason that if we didn't go this route, they'd be mighty pissed off - they're asking for considerably more than us, after all, and don't like the competition.

    ***
    Does your Faculty Advisor guide the team towards a particular design? Is that why some teams have similar cars year after year?
    ***

    Our faculty advisor, Al George, does precisely the opposite if anything. He structures a series of design reviews early in the year whereby iterations of research and design are presented and defended, and two reviews later in the year to cope with redesign, testing, and competition readiness. He does not guide design as much as ask tough questions about them. If you don't have the answers, well, you look like an idiot and he'll be fair but blunt in reminding you of that.

    To the extent that we don't reinvent the wheel every year and have many systems that are evolutionary in nature, it's because the above system is somewhat conservative and we are encouraged to back up designs from both external sources and from our own research reports (written as part of the course requirements...)

    We do of course have revolutionary or highly complex research going on, but we don't slam it on the car for the hell of it. Most such research is a multi-year process, and requires a number of different cohorts to pull off.

    ***
    We (the students) like to think we make the decisions but do you have complete freedom or do you need to convince staff before you can head in a different design direction?
    ***

    See above. Convincing your faculty advisor's not a bad idea. If you have no argument for your design, the design judges will know. Might as well see if your idea will survive friendly fire first.

    ***
    What process is in place for the transition from one years team to the next?
    ***

    See above. We recruit at the end of the spring semester to bring new team members to competition. They are not formally members of the team (legally here they cannot drive as a result) but help out, go to competition, get stoked, and start off the new year considerably more advanced than those recruited in the fall.

    ***
    Are your teams made up of much more than just engineering students? ie jounalist, web designers, commerce, marketing, graphic artists, etc. Our team is all engineers with one exception.
    ***

    Ph.D. student in Communication here, organizational communication and knowledge systems. We have had people from economics, industrial and labor relations, operations research, physics, business, even textiles and apparel. Most of the team of course are mechanical or electrical, as can be expected. But the others learn. Our chassis leader and designer of our shocks last year was an econ/physics major.

    ---
    Michael Jones
    Coordinator, Student Project Teams, College of Engineering

    Cornell Racing
    http://fsae.mae.cornell.edu
    ---
    Michael Jones
    Cornell Racing 2001-2005
    PhD Candidate, University of Toronto, Faculty of Information
    http://www.yafle.ca/fsae

  8. #8
    Up until this year, our program worked exactly like yours, Aaron. However, alot of changes allow me to now say 'ditto' to much of Michael's remarks.

    On this 2004 cycle, FSAE became an official undergrad capstone option with half a dozen returning members for the First time (we're all 5th year seniors, heh). Our cycle is also expanded from 2 semesters to 3 plus the summer, where the curriculum starts in the Spring semester. Meaning that right now, the 2005 team is starting up and is mandatorily helping and learning from the 2004 team. We also visit 1st, 2nd, and 3rd year design classes to invite new volunteers and team members.

    These changes have allowed us to raise twice the funding of 2003 and invest into badly needed tools and equipment.

    We hope this will result in a siginificantly better showing this year.

    David Yao
    Univ. of New Mexico (USA)
    LOBOMotorsports '03 '04
    -David Y

    LOBOMotorsports '03-'05
    Stanford Formula for 2007

  9. #9
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
    Do academic staff fully support the FSAE program and encourage 1st years to get involved or is it up to the team to recruit?
    Do you have subjects available devoted to FSAE as part of your course?
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    At Adelaide Uni the FSAE team is run as one of the final year projects within the uni, so far only final yr students have been involved.
    We are the first team to actually start our design process half way through 3rd year.
    So we started Mid 03 for the 04 FSAE-A comp.
    So far the teams were formed in late Jan/early Feb to compete in the Dec comp that year.

    Its support by a limited amount of faculty members quite a few especially from other engineering dep arent supportive at all
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
    Does the university supply most of your resources or are you left to your own devices to seek sponsorship?
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    We get a garage, small amount of financial support, pretty were left to our own devices to gather the rest of the money we need to complete, the coordinator of the projetc tries to get more uni support but its not a very liked project within the Engineering dep

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
    Does your Faculty Advisor guide the team towards a particular design? Is that why some teams have similar cars year after year?
    We (the students) like to think we make the decisions but do you have complete freedom or do you need to convince staff before you can head in a different design direction?
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    He sometimes gives us ideas and what he wouldnt mind seeing on the car, but in the end we have to end say. He just checks the final design that its reasonable ie is gonna work.

    If we want to do something very drastic ie run a CVT hence leading to cutting off the transmission of the current engine, then he'll have a say of and most likely stuff like that wont be done unless were the designed has been tested and it works

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
    What process is in place for the transition from one years team to the next?
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    At the moment NONE
    Were the first team that is going to try to get younger year levels involved in some way, so at least they learn the basics and get a feel for what its about.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
    Are your teams made up of much more than just engineering students? ie jounalist, web designers, commerce, marketing, graphic artists, etc. Our team is all engineers with one exception.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    Mechanical/ Mechatronic Engineers only
    were not even allowed to have engineers from other departments let alone from totally different faculties


    Hopefully the way our team is restructuring how the program is run will lead to better designs for our future teams

    "Pain is an illusion"
    TOOL
    04 Adelaide Uni FSAE Team

    "Pain is an illusion"
    TOOL

  10. #10
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RaID:
    Mechanical/ Mechatronic Engineers only
    were not even allowed to have engineers from other departments let alone from totally different faculties<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    Just hurt a EE's feelings! oh and Mechatronic is a cool word.

    Our team is alittle less structured as far as administration, we take anyone from any year, and if after a year they're still showing up and have demonstrated skill and dependability, they'll be up for a team leader position.

    I love the idea of recruiting quasi-members with the purpose of taking them to competition asap, because you would expose the newbies to the most exciting parts of the project right off the bat, instead of doing what we do and recruiting people in September and having 75% of them leave long before the interesting parts start. But the problem is we really don't have time to be doing anything but working on the car in the few months before competition.

    "...with powershifts and tiresmoke for all"
    Code:
    "...with powershifts and tiresmoke for all"

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