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Thread: FSAE World Ranking: Who is Number 1 worldwide?

  1. #121
    Originally posted by Owen Thomas:
    Jakob,

    If you're really that desperate, find out yourself! All the SAE sanctioned competition results are available online (I think?), and you can use the previous years' rank table as a template.

    It may not apply directly, but the intent of the phrase "FBD that sh*t" comes to mind...

    Yes, I'm really that desperated
    ... or better: I'm really that curious how much my team improved this year.

    Of course, I did the calulations by myself, but I'n not sure if they are right.

    My many problems were the coefficients ("each of these aspects is being normalized" ?)

    http://www.fs-world.org/

  2. #122
    Finally the WRL has been updated. The main problem was/is that some competitions only use team names and not school names. Additionally some do not mark which team is IC and which is EV and some publish results which are not text-based tables, but embedded pictures. All these factors heavily affect how fast we are able to import the data.

    WRL Combustion

    WRL Electric
    Regards,

    Tobias

    Formula Student Germany
    FSE Rules & Organisation
    http://twitter.com/TobiasMic
    http://TobiasMic.Blogspot.com

    Not many people know the difference between resolution and accuracy.

  3. #123
    ranked 413 Internationally out of the 511 teams in our first competition year. Beat out the more experienced teams in Egypt (not much of an achievement but i will take it)
    Cairo University Racing Team Technical Director 2011-2012
    Tyres and Vehicle dynamics
    Suspension team head 2010

  4. #124
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    University of Pittsburgh
    Posts
    147
    170... Well I suppose ill take it. Guess that just means we have to kick ass at Michigan this year

  5. #125
    Tobias - The Team name issue will be adressed (= fixed) at FSA 2013.
    Also, if that would help you, we could send you a scoring spreadsheet that you can easily extract the data out of. Just let me know which format would be the most convenient for you.
    --
    Lukas Raschendorfer
    TU Graz Racing 2007-2009
    Electronics Division
    Formula Student Austria 2011-
    Rules & Cost
    "Where is my hammer?"

  6. #126
    Luke,
    thanks for the offer, we will get back to you 2013 as we already imported the data for 2012
    Regards,

    Tobias

    Formula Student Germany
    FSE Rules & Organisation
    http://twitter.com/TobiasMic
    http://TobiasMic.Blogspot.com

    Not many people know the difference between resolution and accuracy.

  7. #127
    Tobias,
    that was actually meant for 2013 ;-)
    I think I will just mail you after the event...
    --
    Lukas Raschendorfer
    TU Graz Racing 2007-2009
    Electronics Division
    Formula Student Austria 2011-
    Rules & Cost
    "Where is my hammer?"

  8. #128
    At the risk of starting a discussion on what the world ranking formula should or shouldn't include, I'd like to point out that this ranking scheme believes the old adage "you're only as good as your last race".

    A quick look through the rankings brings a few cases to light:
    + GFR won four of the five events it entered since July 2011, but failing to complete endurance at FSG 2012 (the most recent event) leaves them 30th in the combustion rankings.
    + Texas A&M has competed in one event since 2008, finishing 5th at Lincoln this year, and is 5th in the combustion rankings.
    + Top-ranked Stuttgart has an impressive list of finishes, but all it will take is one failure to finish endurance and they will fall out of the top 20 again. It happened to them in 2010 after winning 5 straight events.

    My opinion is that this system should be weighted less-heavily on the most recent event, but then again it's not my ranking system. Any debate on the ranking formula will come down to personal preferences. I would, however, like to encourage students to look a little more deeply than just their ranking position to see how they were ranked where they are.

    Note to Tobias: I can appreciate the work that goes into compiling all these results. It isn't easy, and there will never be consensus on the ranking formula--a thankless task! Still, a "world ranking" is a nice contribution to the global Formula community.
    Dr. Edward M. Kasprzak
    President: EMK Vehicle Dynamics, LLC
    Associate: Milliken Research Associates, Inc.
    Co-Director: FSAE Tire Test Consortium
    Lecturer: SAE Industrial Lecture Program
    FSAE Design Judge

  9. #129
    Edward,
    we are always happy to discuss our approach open-minded. As you said, getting the data is the most demanding task. Calculating the results is done by the server

    I see what you are talking about. The formulas we use are documented on our landing page and, as said above, I am happy to discuss, if another approach reflects the actual ranking better. It will however always stay a world ranking by definition which does or does not reflect the personal preferences of the person looking at it.

    For example right now we have to deal with a special artefact:
    Teams that have changed entirely to electric from IC and do not clock in any more results rise in the WRL, if their last results were good. This currently happens to Zwickau for example. I do not say that they don't deserve it. They had a strong combustion team! But they still rise, because their last results were strong. The same will happen with Delft. They will conquer the top ranking after FSUK2013. That is for sure!

    So how to deal with it? Any input is appreciated!
    Regards,

    Tobias

    Formula Student Germany
    FSE Rules & Organisation
    http://twitter.com/TobiasMic
    http://TobiasMic.Blogspot.com

    Not many people know the difference between resolution and accuracy.

  10. #130
    Tobias,

    I like the overall structure of the ranking formula. I think it does a lot of things "right". For example, limiting to three years or six events, whichever comes first, is very reasonable. Attempts to correct for the strength of competition are also reasonable.

    But, as noted earlier, I think it weights too heavily on the last event. I think the "season" weight is a great concept, but I think the "actuality" weight is too severe. It is currently based on powers of 0.6.

    Right now if a team does three events per season their ranking is weighted (normalized S*A) as follows, with the most recent event first:

    43.2%, 25.9%, 15.6%, 7.8%, 4.7%, 2.8%

    If you base the "A" on powers of 0.8 instead of 0.6 it becomes:

    28.7%, 23.0%, 18.4%, 12.3%, 9.8%, 7.8%

    And if you go to 0.9:

    23.0%, 20.7%, 18.6%, 13.9%, 12.6%, 11.3%

    Assuming I've understood the formula and done the calculations correctly I propose basing the acuality on 0.8 or 0.9 instead of 0.6. I think these are more representative weightings for the most active teams, and I don't see a downside for teams that do one competition a year. The "season" factor weights those.

    Speaking of which, a somewhat larger gap between seasons, such as (6,4,3) instead of the current (6,5,4), could be useful, but this isn't as large an issue for me.

    My last suggestion is to always count one event per year. Thus, an IC team that scored in '10 and '11 but went electric in '12 would be credited with "0" for one event in '12 in the combustion rankings. A new team in '12 would have "0" for the '10 and '11 years. It would take a few years to work up (or down) the rankings, but that's okay--the ranking metric should be relatively stable and catch longer term trends, not the most recent way the wind is blowing.

    Sure, counting one event a year still doesn't properly acknowledge a strong IC team that became a strong electric team, but it will eliminate the anomalies like you described with Delft or as I noted with Texas A&M. Nothing against the fine folks at A&M, but one 5th place finish in your only event of the last 5 years shouldn't put you in the top 10 of the world rankings.

    Thoughts?
    Dr. Edward M. Kasprzak
    President: EMK Vehicle Dynamics, LLC
    Associate: Milliken Research Associates, Inc.
    Co-Director: FSAE Tire Test Consortium
    Lecturer: SAE Industrial Lecture Program
    FSAE Design Judge

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