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Thread: Formula SAE West 2009 Competition: - Updates, Pictures, Stories, and More

  1. #121
    Mike, I think that's a great idea. In the US, the finals used to be the morning after endurance, which allowed the judges to look at tire wear, etc. This should be instituted elsewhere.
    "Gute Fahrer haben die Fliegenreste auf den Seitenscheiben."
    --Walter Röhrl

  2. #122
    Results are up:
    http://www.sae.org/students/fsaew2009results.pdf

    I always thought that it would be cool if they didn't rush to do semi's Thursday night, and just waited until Friday night - after everyone has done the skidpad, accel and autox...
    Sooner Racing Team
    University of Oklahoma
    Chief Engineer 08-09
    Team Captain 06-08

    sae.ou.edu

  3. #123
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MH:
    At FS Germany 2008 we won Overall Dynamics (winning Enduro and Fuel Economy, finishing in the top of the rest of the dynamics) and winning the overall event (total of 919 points). But we were not among the 14 design finalists and only got 105 points for design.
    Im my opinion, you can have the fanciest car, but e.g. if your car fails on suspension 3 times in 3 days, then you should not be a design finalist.

    Perhaps design judging should take place after the dynamics? Just a thought...

    cheers,
    Miki Hegedus
    Delft University of Technology </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    This was also true of us at Maryland during FSAE West 2008, where we took the overall dynamic lead (and 1st overall), but received only 100pts for design, and didn't make semi's. We were told that the only reason we didn't make finals was that we were over 500 lbs (we were at 509), but given that we won acceleration, the number itself shouldn't really mean anything compared to our performance.
    Terps Racing
    2007 - Present

  4. #124

  5. #125
    [QUOTE]Originally posted by rkellz007:
    Josh,

    Given the picture at the beginning of this page of posts I am not sure that the 'other' Oregon has an engineering program either ;-)

    ryan

    Those damn green and yellow hippies couldn't engineer their way out of a wet paper bag. Oregon State on the other hand built their entire monocoque out of a wet paper bag, and then promptly engineered their way out.

  6. #126
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RacingManiac:
    We had no one to talk to us about suspension in 2007 in our design group period. We actually have a chassis/suspension judge, we've shove our presentation in his face and he walks away. We've talked to Doug Milliken and Claude after and both said we would've made semi if we were in their line. And we typically produce a heavily suspension centric report. Not to mention 2007 was the first time we have had a in-house developed simulation program and that was a bulk of the focus on our design report. It was a really wierd design event for us that year, and me and the other suspension guy felt pretty bad about it. In 2006 we score the highest point in our line for suspension as well, and in 2008 they made semi, this year again from talking to the current suspension leader they've had no suspension judge during their design event again.

    It seems like a luck of the draw, but it really shouldn't be like that.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    That's a shame. The same thing happened to us in England in 2007. Oh well, that's why we go to FSG now.
    "Gute Fahrer haben die Fliegenreste auf den Seitenscheiben."
    --Walter Röhrl

  7. #127
    Senior Member
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pennyman:
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The lack of suspension chassis judge doesn't help, which was the case in 2007 and apparently in 2009 as well for the Toronto team in Michigan. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Ok, I just have to mention this...

    As the suspension guy on the team, I found it very annoying that the guy judging brake systems just had to ask our brake dude about our anti roll bar, just because it happened to be in his line of sight.

    This occurred in other areas of the car as well, when the chassis judge asked our chassis guy about brakes! Of course his response was "um, I know a little about that but let me have (insert name here) speak to you about it".

    I simply don't appreciate it when judges ask members of my team about components they aren't supposed to be judging in the first place.

    Anyone else run into this problem? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    From the reports... it sounds like the suspension failure on OSU was caused by the chassis area not understanding the braking loads.

    On my formula hybrid team, I discovered that the EE's needed some guidance on packaging/building wiring harnesses as they usually don't have much/any experience with vibrations or stresses on a harness.

    So while the suspension guy doesn't need to know about the stiffness of the brake pad material, he should have a general idea of what is going on.
    "Man, I need to practice more!" - Kenny Wallace
    "Try not to have a good time... this is supposed to be educational." - Charles M Schulz
    -OptimumG 2005-2006
    -Turner Motorsports 2008-2009
    -Black Swan Racing 2010 & 2011 Team and Driver's Champions
    -HPD Race Engineer 2011-2014
    -Currently Freelance Data/Race Engineer

  8. #128
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> I have had Nascar suspension judges for 3 years in Michigan and made semifinals or better twice. They are not stupid, far from it. Turning one direction is just as complicated as turning in both, if not more so.

    And you must have one hell of an ego to spew this crap on the forum. But don't worry, they're too busy to read this, and way too busy to offer you a job. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Hey, I never called a judge stupid, that was all on you. If you re-read my post you will find that the chief problem was a communication barrier...we designed our report and boards for a left-right turning audience. I found that I had to explain some design methods that Claude taught us in Optimum G.

    And I will agree, in many aspects only turning left is more complicated...at least our suspensions are symmetric left to right. But the problem is that the two types of suspensions are so different, design goals are different, strategies are different, hell even the lingo is different. We had to spend so much time talking about stuff I considered more along the lines of background material than the real meat and potatoes.

    But then again, if everyone in that queue is in the same boat, perhaps there are points to be awarded on who can bridge the gap better. Just one more thing to be prepared for I suppose.
    Dr. Adam Witthauer
    Iowa State University 2002-2013 alum

    Mad Scientist, Gonzo Racewerks Unincorporated, Intl.

  9. #129
    Hmm... about design judges/judging...

    Design finals DID take place after endurance (for whoever posted that they should).

    I only got to sit in for design finals this year so I did not see any of the other cars but let me relay what I took from it. Not here to argue about this at all, I just want everyone to *hopefully* benefit.

    The judges in general thought that the usual "lower" teams have improved greatly but the usual "top" teams seemed to be missing something this year. I even got this opinion from one of my bosses who has been a judge for only 2 years. I didn't see everyone's presentation so I can't say what was missing, but I would suggest practicing your presentation as often as you can and keep it in mind the whole year (why AM I picking this material/roll center/rigidity?). Practice in front of your alumni and have them grill you. It's easy to "wow" people that have never been to a competition but get people involved that know what's up, what you'll be asked, and hopefully they can even come up with new questions to throw you off.

    For those of you that felt short-changed because a car that had a major failure made it to design finals...Don't hate me for this but...there is a *reason* why that car beat out the other 40 some odd cars. The judges are very passionate during their discussions and DO care about all the work you've put in to your car the entire year. They're not just throwing darts at a board for your scores. If that car made it to design finals, then the judges thought it deserved to be there. Now, that means a combination of a) it was a superb car and their presentation was immaculate and/or b) the other cars were not to its level. Still feel short-changed because YOU KNOW your car was better? Well, what can I say other than, make a better case to the judges during your presentation. I know it can be easy to fall into the "it's not fair" attitude but please, step back and look at it again even if you think you already did your best. You are an engineer, *you can always do better*. "Bad" judges aside, the good cars make it year after year and the bad cars don't. Just because you had one "bad" design judge (I know, it happens, see below for my plea to ease up on the judges) doesn't mean that all the other judges on your panel had the same opinion of your car. Also, just because Claude told you your car would be his top choice if you were in his line doesn't mean the other judges on his panel would agree! I am not even trying to make a case for above said car. I did not even get a good look at all the cars this year. Are you the only one that thinks it's odd that a car that broke its front suspension in the brake test made it to design finals? No, you are not. But do you know what that means? Try harder next year, because the car that broke during that brake test just beat you in design.

    (That sounded a little mean but bottom line is do your damn best presentation ever and no, the judges are not idiots that overlooked some wishbones trying to leave a chassis.)

    They DID want people from specific departments to have knowledge about other departments. They really wanted to emphasize system integration. For example, the chassis guy knowing where the suspension loads come from. And I don't just mean "from the wishbones!" I don't know how far they were going to take this... like, does the ECU guy need to know the weight distribution during braking? I can't really say. But I did witness a judge asking a suspension question to the chassis guy and after he did what we've all been trained to do (I'm sorry, please let me direct you to our suspension chief), the judge told him HE should know the answer. Kinda scary huh? I don't know if this is going to be a common theme for years to come but a way to prepare is to have everyone practice their design presentations in front of everyone else, and don't let everyone fall asleep during it! I think most teams have all their members memorize each department's goals but I guess the judges want more depth than that.

    That's it for what I picked up from listening to the other judges. About some judges being "nuts"...well, I've never been involved with judge selection but the panel choice is made well in advance (at least for West it is). That's the whole reason design reports are turned in ahead of time. Judges are mailed a CD of all reports regardless if they're judging that specific car. Now, if they have time to read everyone's reports is a different story. Should judges on the same panel discuss things amongst themselves before hand? Maybe. Try to remember that every judge, tech, and cone worker (bless their-sometimes-blind hearts) are volunteering for your benefit. This includes the person given the tremendous task of deciding which judge goes with which school. It is very hard for the deciding person to know all judges personally and know their expertise. We also get new judges every year and it takes a few years for them to get settled in and be able to be that "top" judge everyone sadistically craves.

    /ramble

    And now for my favorite picture from comp, of course...
    &lt;img src="http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/7wFkFPWupKJNtNRnaksOfw?feat=directlink"&gt;&lt;/img&gt;

  10. #130
    Argg, the huge post I just made has to be approved before it will show up!

    Everyone, please wait in suspense.

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