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Thread: Auto X and Endurance Track release

  1. #1

    Auto X and Endurance Track release

    With the way the tracks are released early as of now it seems to really give heavily funded/well grounded teams a major advantage of driver training on a track that will be identical at competition. Many teams do not have access to facilities that allow for a full scale enduro/autocross. After watching a video of a team test a full day at a private Bosch event for the enduro course it really seems to give an unfair advantage to a select set of teams. Especially given the driver levels which make the driver arguably the largest variable of a reliable car. So why not actually in the spirit of real autocross racing not release track maps until the start of competition to flatten the playing field?

  2. #2
    I doubt these teams are paying Bosch daily rates to use the facilities. Why not reach out to local suppliers with test track access to see if they're willing to sponsor? Or companies with large parking lots, schools, etc. Or get a license to Assetto Corsa and simulate the track.
    Adam
    Any views or opinions expressed by me may in no way reflect those of Kettering University, it's students and administrators, or our sponsors.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by acedeuce802 View Post
    I doubt these teams are paying Bosch daily rates to use the facilities. Why not reach out to local suppliers with test track access to see if they're willing to sponsor? Or companies with large parking lots, schools, etc. Or get a license to Assetto Corsa and simulate the track.
    You are correct they are not paying Bosch it is a sponsored event for a select few teams (many top 10 teams). You will find as I have already that insurance is king when it comes to testing. That's a whole rabbits hole in itself of politics with the school not to mention cost. School parking lots etc do not offer near a large enough area to do even 1/4 of the MIS back stretch. Simulation on a video game does not offer the realism nor does it allow for real setup of the car/execution needed at competition.

    A driver that knows the track could easily knock off multiple seconds. You can have the fastest car but honestly I'd rather know the track. Play your favorite game/simulator pick a track you dont know and tell me which would make a larger difference in the first two laps, a faster car or better memorization of braking points and turn ins?

    What is the pros of offering the track early to teams? (In the mindset of benefiting all teams)

  4. #4
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    Access to testing area doesn't necessarily have much to do with being "heavily funded". As it has already been noted, the example you gave wasn't paying Bosch for access, they got it for free. Not everyone has access to something as good as the Bosch testing ground but I think most teams could find something adequate within an hour of them and get permission to test there (big campus parking lot, regional airstrip, local kart track, etc). If you really can't set up the course and test it, publishing the map at least still gives you the opportunity to simulate the course in rFactor or Asseto Corsa, or in your own lap sim program.

    So taking the funding out of the equation, what it comes down to is you're saying teams that are well organized, experienced, prepared for comp early, and ready to test have a big advantage? That's **always** going to be the case, and why shouldn't it be?

    If you didn't publish the course maps, it will still give just as big of an advantage to talented drivers because being able to improvise and figure out a new course in just 1 lap is an extremely difficult skill.
    Last edited by JT A.; 05-18-2018 at 10:57 AM.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by JT A. View Post
    Access to testing area doesn't necessarily have much to do with being "heavily funded". As it has already been noted, the example you gave wasn't paying Bosch for access, they got it for free. Not everyone has access to something as good as the Bosch testing ground but I think most teams could find something adequate within an hour of them and get permission to test there (big campus parking lot, regional airstrip, local kart track, etc). If you really can't set up the course and test it, publishing the map at least still gives you the opportunity to simulate the course in rFactor or Asseto Corsa, or in your own lap sim program.

    So taking the funding out of the equation, what it comes down to is you're saying teams that are well organized, experienced, prepared for comp early, and ready to test have a big advantage? That's **always** going to be the case, and why shouldn't it be?

    If you didn't publish the course maps, it will still give just as big of an advantage to talented drivers because being able to improvise and figure out a new course in just 1 lap is an extremely difficult skill.
    Almost every team disagrees with you about finding a testing facility. It is definitely a major problem for the majority of teams. In a perfect world everyone would test on the identical track and that would reduce the talent gap. The preparation from an identical course is an unfair bias and I have never heard of an auto x give away the track location ahead of time. Many racing series are actively reducing the number of resources needed to be competitive why not do the same here in SAE?

    Again simulation is a huge leap away from physical testing.

    I can be prepared for a test without practicing on an identical test in school cant I?
    Last edited by Hoyt H; 05-18-2018 at 11:40 AM.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Hoyt H View Post
    Almost every team disagrees with you about finding a testing facility. It is definitely a major problem for the majority of teams. In a perfect world everyone would test on the identical track and that would reduce the talent gap. The preparation from an identical course is an unfair bias and I have never heard of an auto x give away the track location ahead of time. Many racing series are actively reducing the number of resources needed to be competitive why not do the same here in SAE?

    Again simulation is a huge leap away from physical testing.

    I can be prepared for a test without practicing on an identical test in school cant I?


    Sorry man I completely disagree with you. Yes teams all have trouble finding parking lots to test in but that's all location and rarely funding related . Besides that Bosch sponsored test day (which are you positive they setup the exact track ahead of time? If so impressive) most can't find a place big enough to build an entire comp sized track. Be resourceful and pick out the tricky sections of the track and set them up in your local parking lot. This isn't an instance where teams with more funding get some.massive advantage. Also many SCCA/PCA regions release their tracks ahead of time. We've done just fine in the past with simulation. These teams aren't winning just because they had a full scale test track.
    Noah
    Student

  7. #7
    This thread is being hijacked in a wrong direction. Well funded teams have an option to pay for a facility. Regardless funding is a minute point.

    A team that test at an identical track will place better probably significantly better than one that didn't. In no series does simulation replace practice. Neither does a similar track replace testing at the actual track of interest. You dont see Nascar teams practicing at Daytona in preparation for Talladega even though the tracks are similar.

    What is the pros to publishing it early? You're lap sims etc can all be ran the two days before dynamic events none the less.

    Clarify TLDR Poor/Rich, Organized/Disbanded, simulation/no simulation. Doesnt matter a team that test on an identical track will perform significantly better testing on the track of interest in it's full.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoyt H View Post
    You dont see Nascar teams practicing at Daytona in preparation for Talladega even though the tracks are similar.
    I don't have time to respond to your other misguided opinions yet, but I can tell you for a fact that this is just straight up not true.
    Trent Strunk
    University of Kansas
    Jayhawk Motorsports
    2010-2014

    Now in NASCAR land. Boogity.
    Opinions Are My Own

  9. #9
    I can be prepared for a test without practicing on an identical test in school cant I?
    Yep.
    pick out the tricky sections of the track and set them up in your local parking lot.
    Connect the dots.
    Doesnt matter a team that test on an identical track will perform significantly better testing on the track of interest in it's full.
    100% correct. Is there anything you can do to stop other teams from being as prepared as possible? Is it "fair"? Nah, so try not to get too worked up about it and prepare yourself the best you can. It's all you can do.

    If I recall, the organizers started posting the track maps early to try and level the playing field and reduce the impact that an ace driver has. We can argue all day about whether or not it was effective, but I'll put some trust in the course designers who have been running SCCA events for decades. This isn't a bad discussion to have, I just feel there's probably bigger fish regarding performance inequality.
    Owen Thomas
    University of Calgary FSAE, Schulich Racing

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by theTTshark View Post
    I don't have time to respond to your other misguided opinions yet, but I can tell you for a fact that this is just straight up not true.
    Lol sorry to waste your time. Bless me with your words of wisdom oh holy one.

    Oh wait we should be probably be a little more professional...

    Let's just keep on the topic, you can disagree without trying to throw an insult.

    Thanks in advance
    Last edited by Hoyt H; 05-19-2018 at 10:09 AM.

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