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Thread: Design Judging

  1. #31

    The chicken and the egg...

    I set off some controversy with the remark about the regulars here being design judges.

    There were two ways this could've gone:

    1) The way it did, which was to assume that the chicken came first and that we have scared off everyone else. This was followed by some remarks on the poor flying abilities of chickens and of their cowardice.

    2) The other way, where FSAE graduates have gone off into industry, kept involved in the competition by posting on FSAE.com threads and talking to their successors at school, and finding themselves with the ability to take the time away to judge or scrutineer. I know that fsae.com helped convince me that I had something useful to teach as a design judge. I suspect sidkash and thettshark think the same way. SAE is often looking for judges, so if you're qualified and want to, look up the CDJ for the event. Do you know anyone who'd make a good design judge?

    I did not mean to slight Owen, so let me apologize and point out that a design judge can ASK students if they want to improve something on their car next year, while a scrutineer can TELL students to fix something on their car as fast as they possibly can so that they can compete.

    Oviparous animals were around for millions of years before birds, let alone chickens!
    Charles Kaneb
    Magna International
    FSAE Lincoln Design Judge - Frame/Body/Link judging area. Not a professional vehicle dynamicist.

  2. #32
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    So I shared my survey here on FSAE.com, on the FSAE Facebook group, and on the FSAE Sub Reddit.
    No doubt I missed some platforms but I got 245 responses.
    There are thousands of FSAE'ers but this is at least a snapshot of the community.
    Respondents could choose multiple answers and submit comments as well.
    Over the past few days I notice several recurring comments so I added them to the answer list.
    In the results below I converted those comments into standard answers and scaled them up based on when I added them to the list.

    For me the most disappointing response was "Not aware of it".
    I remember being introduced to this forum and delving into its 8000+ threads and then later excitedly showing new students as they joined.
    It is truly saddening to see how the new generation of students have been turned away.

    % of respondents that selected this answer
    59% "because this place is toxic with posters being called out and shamed by people like Claude and Z too regularly"
    36% There are better platform options
    25% The info I want from here has already been discussed. Just read old threads and no need to post
    13% Low activity level so I don't post (catch 22)
    8% Excess of "Give me the answer plz thx" posts
    4% I graduated
    3% I post regularly at www.fsae.com/forums/
    2% Not aware of it

    245 Total Responses

    -William

  3. #33
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    William,

    Well done. You have a bright future in marketing, politics, or any sort of "post truth" career. You have just given an excellent example of how a "market survey" can deliver ANY result you want, provided that you prepare it correctly.

    By giving the explicit option of "Because this place is toxic with posters being called out and shamed by people like Claude and Z too regularly" near the top of your list, you have given it the benefit of the "donkey vote". This is where the respondents who move their lips as they read, and so have trouble with such long lists, just go with something near the top.

    How do you think the survey would have gone if, instead of the above option, you put in something like "I couldn't be bothered, because I know I will get good "FSAE credit" even with minimal knowledge/understanding of how these cars work."? Or would that be expecting too much honesty?

    Anyway, the argument that "Claude and Z [scared us away]" is clearly nonsense, given that both Claude and I have been here for well over a decade, and some of the Forum's highest-traffic moments have been while we were both doing what we do, as we have always done.

    The real reason for the slow-down in posts is that the current generation of students are spineless Snowflakes, who are totally lacking in the strength of character needed to engage in honest, truthful, dialogue.

    As they have made abundantly clear (read this thread), they:
    1. Have no need for any genuine learning (because they will always get their Gold Stars).
    2. Are too lazy/frightened to engage in the rational dialogue that is necessary to find "the truth".
    3. So, they instead go to the so-called "better platforms" where, for example, they are handed on a silver plate, with a generous dose of sugar, the idea that a Damping Ratio of 4:1 is one of the "multiple right solutions". (<- Good luck with that!)

    Ahh, yes, the descent into decrepitude accelerates!

    Z

  4. #34
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    Example of a crappy platform. I had a response complete but got logged out and lost it so you get a rough version.
    ***

    I created the survey seeking truthful and accurate data.
    Claiming that I manipulated it is untrue and uncalled for.

    Counter points

    1)
    46% of respondents selected multiple answers or left a comment.
    If I remove everyone that only selected "because this place is toxic..." then the response rate for that answer drops to 39%.

    If I only consider single selection responses the rate goes down to 47% (they spent less effort on the survey)
    If I only consider multiple selection responses the rate goes up to 80% (they spent more effort on the survey)

    So the more effort a person spent on the survey the more likely they are to cite the negative environment as the reason they stopped posting.

    2)
    Rank - 3 Rate - 59% "because this place is toxic…
    Rank - 4 Rate - 36% There are better platform options
    Rank - 5 Rate - 25% The info I want from here has already been discussed….
    Rank - 6 Rate - 13% Low activity level so I don't post (catch 22)
    Rank - 2 Rate - 8% Excess of "Give me the answer plz thx" posts
    Rank - 7 Rate - 4% I graduated
    Rank - 1 Rate - 3% I post regularly at www.fsae.com/forums/
    Rank - 8 Rate - 2% Not aware of it

    The top 4 responses are the middle 4 on the list.
    The second answer is ranked 7th.
    This does not indicate a strong order bias.
    But I turned on the shuffle feature for future respondents.

    3)
    In the comments from the survey people often cited the negativity.
    Some named names.
    One said you were normally correct but were too abrasive.
    On the other platforms where I shared a link many people also cited the negativity.

    4)
    I don't have access to forum statistics but I have also been here for 10 years.
    I would prefer data over rhetoric but would wager that the activity peak because in part of your involvement.
    For years and years I have seen for you beat down rather than lift up many new comers to the forum.
    One by one they were driven off.

    Summery)
    Nothing I have seen indicates that the survey data is grossly incorrect.
    The negativity is the top cause for people not using the forum.

    Those students still need experience people's guidance.
    But if the cost is being berated they will get it elsewhere.
    Other platforms or your own old posts.

    I recommend you consider writing a book.
    You have written much here to give you starting material.
    That way you have share a guide without having to fight college students.

    It is late. Night

    -William

  5. #35
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    William,

    Thank you for creating the survey. It is an example of someone who has gone out and done some research and presented the data. As Claude would say "Is it perfect? No, is it useful?..."

    Let's imagine a moment where for example we have two competing engine manufacturers... For arguments sake lets call one "Rhonda" and the other one "Sherry", and they compete in a completely fictional racing series called "Mindy-car". Both manufacturers have had success in the past and offer similar products and levels of performance.

    Err, scratch that... that's a little too close to home.

    Let's say that there are two competing hockey stick manufacturers, one named "Weston" and one named "MMC". Both are used by professionals and amateurs alike. However both companies started to receive emails and calls from the amateur market that their latest carbon composite sticks were breaking.
    Both companies studied the problem and discovered that the way the amateur market was transporting the sticks to and from the games reduced their structural integrity. MMC designed a new stick with slightly different materials to make a more robust stick, while Weston blamed the customers for mis-handling the product.

    Which company went on to become more successful?

    I'm not agreeing or disagreeing that current students expect a gold star or don't want to put in the work, but what I'm saying is that if you're offering a product and the feedback is not positive, either you have to change your product or someone else will capitalize on the opportunity and customers will go elsewhere.
    "Man, I need to practice more!" - Kenny Wallace
    "Try not to have a good time... this is supposed to be educational." - Charles M Schulz
    -OptimumG 2005-2006
    -Turner Motorsports 2008-2009
    -Black Swan Racing 2010 & 2011 Team and Driver's Champions
    -HPD Race Engineer 2011-2014
    -Currently Freelance Data/Race Engineer

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Will M View Post
    I created the survey seeking truthful and accurate data.
    Claiming that I manipulated it is untrue and uncalled for...
    William,

    You miss the point.

    Your original survey was biased because it gave the respondents a very easy option to support the "...let's blame Claude and Z for all our problems" side of the argument, but no similarly easy option to support the other side of the argument, such as "...couldn't be bothered, because not necessary for good marks...". It is too late to change this bias now, because too many students have already "piled on" to the "...blame Caude and Z" riot , and the echo-chamber will keep ringing for quite a while yet.

    It doesn't matter whether your bias was deliberate, or sub-conscious, the fact is the survey was biased. And that, of course, is most common in the real world. Any survey that offers pre-written responses is biased. Even the way the questions are asked can introduce bias. And any survey that gives updates of its results as it runs will eventually become biased, because of "mob-mentality".

    Imagine if you put as an option "I was too spineless/lazy/stupid to cope with Claude's requests for social politeness, or Z' s demands for intellectual rigour, so I ran away." This is quite likely the reason for a significant percentage of students leaving the Forum. But would any respondents tick that box? Of course not! Because it reflects badly on them. So they tick the other boxes, and the survey ends up biased.
    ~~~~~o0o~~~~~

    Anyway, I am without doubt the most attacked and abused person here. But did I run away? No, because, firstly, I have a backbone, and secondly, as I have stated several times in the past, I am here conducting a social experiment. Namely, is it possible to slow a small part of society's slide into Idiocracy?

    Well, with this experiment now running for well over a decade, the results are quite clear. This "Descent into Decripitude" (<- trademark applied for ) is unstoppable.

    And in case some of you are wondering why I didn't try harder, perhaps by using more "niceness" in my posts, well, that would be like trying to cure a diabetic by feeding them pure sugar! The root problem, you fools, is too much sugar, and not enough fibre, or "roughage", in your intellectual diet!!!

    Experiment over. Hypothesis confirmed.

    Enjoy you fairy-floss futures!

    Z

  7. #37
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    Z,

    I hope this doesn't mean that we'll no longer benefit from your contributions here; that would be a shame. I'd like to thank you for the effort that you put into your posts (the explanation of yaw radius of gyration is without a doubt, the greatest post ever. Period).
    I continue to refer to your information, and I'm grateful for your efforts here.
    I know for a fact that there are people that have posted here in the past, that no longer do so, because of the lack of rigor present on the forum. They work in the highest level of motorsport, and this is no coincidence.

  8. #38
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    The Signal Is Clear

    @js10coastr
    Thank you for the support
    I am not a survey making expert but I would always rather have data than rhetoric.

    @Z
    "Any survey that offers pre-written responses is biased. Even the way the questions are asked can introduce bias."
    Naturally every survey has some bias.
    I would bet the when and where I shared the link had a large effect.
    Also I only got a few hundred responses out of 10,000+ FSAEers.
    But the real question to ask: is the data useful?
    That is a resounding yes.
    This forum has a huge problem with a reputation for negtivity and frankly bullying.

    The challenge with freeform surveys is a lower response rate and that they rarely produce useful data without significant analysis.
    And that analysis introduces its own bias.
    This is not a deeply scientific survey but demanding totally unbiased data is like saying "it is useless to measure electrons because you cannot know the exact momentum and speed".
    Measurement always introduces bias, but it is possible to get useful data from it.
    Which is what I have done.

    ""I was too spineless ... so I ran away." This is quite likely the reason for a significant percentage of students leaving the Forum"
    This is the other side of the same coin.
    Those students came for guidance and got yelled at.
    They did not want to pick a fight on the internet so they left.

    The point is that you cannot change their behavior.
    But you can change yours.

    -William

  9. #39
    Z,

    I tried to learn, but all my teachers were from your generation. They convinced me that I'm only supposed to work until I get a gold star.

  10. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Z View Post
    The real reason for the slow-down in posts is that the current generation of students are spineless Snowflakes, who are totally lacking in the strength of character needed to engage in honest, truthful, dialogue.

    Z
    See attachment.
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    University of Florida - Gator Motorsports
    Project Manager (2012 - 2013)
    Electrical System Leader (2010 - 2015)
    Powertrain/Engine Tuner (2011 - 2015)

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