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Thread: Design Judging

  1. #11
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    I've stopped/slowed down as work has taken up more and more of my time. Also, I feel that I can contribute less to some of the discussions... that and there have been less that have piqued my interest.

    I'd say a lot of the more recent threads are further into the theoretical/mathematical than I'm comfortable and/or experienced with.


    On the global-internet side, I feel that there is a general move away from forums. It's hard to read a ~100 page long post to get to the current state of discussion, and yes facebook is easy and addicting to get updates on.

    I would say that I'm now using the forums more as a reference book or "encyclopedia" if you will, and facebook for updates, short discussions and photos from teams.
    "Man, I need to practice more!" - Kenny Wallace
    "Try not to have a good time... this is supposed to be educational." - Charles M Schulz
    -OptimumG 2005-2006
    -Turner Motorsports 2008-2009
    -Black Swan Racing 2010 & 2011 Team and Driver's Champions
    -HPD Race Engineer 2011-2014
    -Currently Freelance Data/Race Engineer

  2. #12
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    ...because this place is toxic with posters being called out and shamed by people like Claude and Z too regularly.
    Ahh, the "Snowflake Generation"! The precious little darlings have been brought up to think that regardless of how stupid or wrong they are, their mistakes must NEVER be mentioned, and they are always entitled to a Gold Star every day.

    Teacher - "So you're not even going to try the "...dog ate my homework..." excuse?
    You're just telling me straight-up that you couldn't be bothered doing it?
    Well, ... nevermind, here's your Gold Star.
    And today we're also handing out these magical rainbows and unicorns to everyone!"


    Fact is, here in Oz at least, the FSAE-A "reward system" is 100% in the above direction. It does not matter, in any way, how utterly incompetent a Team's effort is, they will still receive some sort of trophy or award.

    The clear message being given by the SAE-A is:

    1. No need to work hard.

    2. No need to learn anything.

    3. No need to do any sort of "homework", such as reading stuff on Forums, let alone contributing to the discussions.

    Instead of the above, oh-so old-fashioned approach, the Teams are encouraged to:

    1. Make whatever "choices" they wish, with these choices requiring no supporting "Reasoning" whatsoever, because they can NEVER BE DESCRIBED AS WRONG.

    2. Spend the whole year doing cool stuff, like playing with expensive toys and burning through as much tax-payers' money as is humanly possible.

    3. And if any student ever feels the least bit "anxious", perhaps because they did something really stupid and this was subsequently pointed out to them, then they should blame the old people who did the pointing out. And perhaps start a global movement to have ALL the older generations hung, drawn, and quartered. (Yey! A bigger slice of cake for the Snowflakes.)
    ~o0o~

    Of course, the above sorry state of affairs is only possible because of, and is thus the end result of, the many small successes of previous generations, going back many hundreds of years.

    That is, the successes of people who were living in very hard times, and would feel extreme pain whenever they got anything the least bit wrong. How they must have loved having only a few harsh words thrown in their direction when they got things wrong, rather than the prospects of starvation or death.

    Anyway, cycles being cycles, the current generation of Snowflakes will do their bit in returning society to that earlier state. It will take another few hundred years (~300 years +/-200, by my reckoning), but is as inevitable as night following day.

    Meanwhile, enjoy your rainbows and unicorns!

    Z
    Last edited by Z; 03-16-2018 at 08:47 PM.

  3. #13

    The Millennial Question

    I never have liked Z style.

    Somebody told me one day that things in other people attitude that irritate me the most do show me the things I need to work on the most on myself if I want to "improve". That is maybe why I dislike Z style... Things I still need to work on. I guess it will be a never ending work...

    But that being said, I have to mostly agree with him.

    I could not help to put in parallel Z comments with this video.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEsUudZvntE

    Food for thoughts

    Claude
    Last edited by Claude Rouelle; 03-16-2018 at 09:21 PM.

  4. #14
    Why would anyone bother to use the forums when a good proportion of threads degenerate into bashing of Indian, Australian, American (non-FSG/Austria) teams?
    The above discussion is a perfect example of why people consider the forums toxic. Constructive criticism is almost always welcomed. What *isn't* welcomed is ad-hominem and off-topic ranting.

  5. #15
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    Tim,

    Why would anyone bother to use the forums...
    Constructive criticism is almost always welcomed...
    You have given two excellent examples that support my case.

    1. WHY BOTHER? - It used to be that students who either wanted to do well in these competitions, or else just wanted to learn "racecar-tech", would come to this Forum and spend ages reading through every single thread that covered their subject of interest. Then they would start asking questions, and work through that long to-and-fro process of engaging in a DIALOGUE, which is a necessary part of learning.

    But Snowflakes don't have to "bother" with that, do they? Nope, plenty of trophies and awards on offer, no matter how incompetent or uneducated they are.

    2. CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM - This is a Snowflake euphemism for:
    "I couldn't be bothered trying to solve this problem myself. Too much thinking, and work, and effort involved.
    So JUST GIVE ME THE ANSWER!!!
    Yeah, and I want it served up on a silver plate. With lots of nice words about how clever I am. And maybe another Gold Star or award of some sort...
    Yep, that's my ENTITLEMENT!"

    ~o0o~

    What *isn't* welcomed is ad-hominem and off-topic ranting.
    For the record, in Rhetoric ad-hominem is used as a means of avoiding the core argument, by instead attacking the person delivering the argument (ie. literally "to the man").

    This thread is, in general, about "Design Judging", and since this DJ-ing necessarily involves the character of the students being judged, then discussions about the students' Snowflake-ishness are quite central to the topic.

    Z
    Last edited by Z; 03-18-2018 at 08:53 PM.

  6. #16
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    Perhaps there are less discussions going on because current students have scoured the forums and found the answer they were looking for and didn't need to bring up the topic again.
    "Man, I need to practice more!" - Kenny Wallace
    "Try not to have a good time... this is supposed to be educational." - Charles M Schulz
    -OptimumG 2005-2006
    -Turner Motorsports 2008-2009
    -Black Swan Racing 2010 & 2011 Team and Driver's Champions
    -HPD Race Engineer 2011-2014
    -Currently Freelance Data/Race Engineer

  7. #17

    Wasting all our time

    This doesn't really add anything of value so I hesitate to post, but let me paint you a picture regarding declining forum participation:

    You are new in your chosen field and find yourself at a trade show or conference, undoubtedly so that you can walk away having learned something useful. You decide to approach a person and ask a question. Maybe it's technical and related to their booth, maybe you just want to know where the bathroom is - doesn't matter, but we'll go with the latter for the sake of this analogy. This person first asks what your name is and what company you work for, then immediately proceeds to stand on a pedestal and announce to everyone within earshot (which includes your peers and several well respected industry professionals) "*your name* IS AN IDIOT!". They step off the pedestal and smile at you, with one of two further outcomes:

    1) They tell you to find it yourself, and exclaim to others nearby that *name & company* can't do anything and must not have been brought up right.
    2) They grab your arm and forcibly drag you to the nearest toilet making sure to point out that the path they're taking is the best and most correct way from point A to B. Oh, and mention that you must not have been brought up right.

    From any sane persons perspective, neither of these outcomes is desirable. None of us are obligated to post on these forums and we do so pro-bono, but regardless we are providing a service. If there was an extremely qualified mechanic in your neighborhood that worked on your vehicles for free but mercilessly berated you in front of the community while doing it, would you take your car down there often? More than once? Not likely - and you'll tell your friends about how it's not worth it too. Personally I'd watch some youtube videos and learn to do it myself instead, much less risk involved. Many of the posts on this forum either immediately turn to one of the two above situations or eventually turn to an incredibly in depth discussion where the OP has no hope whatsoever of understanding or contributing to (this part's not all bad though).

    What I'm trying to say is that sometimes people just want to be pointed in the right direction, and that's all. Simple questions should beget simple answers, and that's where the other platforms shine.

    Perhaps there are less discussions going on because current students have scoured the forums and found the answer they were looking for and didn't need to bring up the topic again.
    One can only hope the archives survive. I for one very much appreciate this forum as a knowledge bank, but am finding that searches for old threads sometimes turn up empty.
    Last edited by Owen Thomas; 03-19-2018 at 07:49 PM.
    Owen Thomas
    University of Calgary FSAE, Schulich Racing

  8. #18
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    Owen,

    The Snowflakishness is strong in you.

    You have difficulty finding the toilets at a trade show? Seriously? And would you expect help with the clean-up afterwards, too?

    As for the grumpy mechanic, if "extremely qualified" = "he knows his stuff, and is good at it", then I would be visiting him as much as possible. Even just to help him fix other peoples' cars. And I would bring coffee and chocolates, or, if he was a Citroen-guru, perhaps some good, cheap, red-wine and cheese, and those French bread-sticks. And when he "mercilessly berated" me I would smile, and nod my head, and smile again.

    I would do all those things because I know that good knowledge is a very valuable thing, and IT DOES NOT COME FOR FREE.

    You are seriously deluded if you believe you can learn anything of value without putting in at least some effort.

    Z

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z View Post
    As for the grumpy mechanic, ...
    Z -- thanks for bringing back some wonderful memories, from 40 years ago.

    I was very fortunate to meet a grumpy craftsman as an undergrad. He had a terribly frightening personality, yelled frequently when he saw incompetence, thick gruff accent (Basque)--and most of my classmates did their best to avoid him. Later I learned that many of his relatives back in Bilbao, Basque (Spain) were ETA (look it up). But, as scary as this guy was, I could see that he was a real master craftsman, in many different materials -- tool maker, model maker, even made specialized machine tools when none was available. Once he decided to make something that hadn't been done before, he hung on like a bull dog and didn't let go until he had mastered all the problems. The amazing thing was, after taking his wrath for some time, I didn't notice it any more. Meanwhile I was learning at a rapid rate in his classes and machine/wood shop.

  10. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by DougMilliken View Post
    Anyone? Why did you stop posting on FSAE.com? Anything to do with access to these pages over a phone (instead of larger screen)?
    The demographic of users here is not representative of the Formula SAE community. Combine that with changing attitudes and technology, you have users flocking to other platforms with discussion more relevant to their concerns. Perhaps it is signalling of a disconnect between student and 'teacher'.

    Snowflake or not, we aren't going to change the culture of an entire generation. @theTTshark, I applaud you for recognising the culture shift and contributing to the FSAE community as a design judge.

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