Build Thread Forum Interest?

[Adam J.]

Hello All,

I'm Adam Pate, a Longhorn Racing alumnus.

I did some searching and noticed that there are a very small number of build threads on the site, which is something usually very common to typical gearhead forums. Since the spirit of FSAE is supposed to be about learning, my opinion is that build threads would help encourage information sharing and peer review. I'm curious if the moderators have any interest in starting a build section on the forum? I suppose you could place a build thread on the 'FSAE Pictures' section, but just seems like you might get a participation boost with a dedicated section. Thoughts?

[Adman]

UTAS has had 2 build threads. We're now in our third year of operation and had build threads for our first two years. It was a fantastic opportunity for us to get feedback as we went, correct things before it was too late, and get advice on things we were unsure of. It's far more useful than a number of likes that your team's facebook page gets, which I think is what more teams are concerned with.

That said... sometimes both of our build threads got incredibly heated to the point where it was no longer constructive criticism (with 'feedback' coming from some very long term users of this forum). I feel this deters a vast number of teams from sharing their own troubles and concerns as they are frequently shot down, and this happens to numerous first-time posters as they as questions on this forum (admittedly, sometimes asking to be baby fed).

I fully agree with you Adam, I think build threads should be a much bigger part of this forum, especially for new teams. Having a dedicated section for them would hopefully boost their popularity. But I don't think the reception most teams would get is enticing to anyone starting out.

[Dunk Mckay]

Another part of the problem is that while many gearhead forums are people tinkering as a hobby, without any deadlines or schedules, FS teams are up against it. So taking the time to stop, take photos every step of the way, post them online, and then have a discussion about what they are doing, is not a top priority.

Don't get me wrong though. In a number of cases I've seen, there have been massive losses of time due to inexperience that might have been avoided had a more experienced eye seen a photo of it early on. But try explaining that to most inexperienced team members.

Lots of teams struggle just to keep their stakeholders updated through social media as regularly as they should. My old team's website hasn't been updated for nearly 2 years. Ironically, the last post talks about how they are going to post updates far more regularly, have a new and improved website, and that their car was going to be the "most ambitious for a decade!" Needless to say, they ran over time, failed to make it to FSUK (having registered), didn't test the car, and didn't pass scrutineering at FSG. Essentially the worst year the team has ever had.
Knowing the management team I avoided getting involved so as to not be associated with that year, allowing me to hopefully get involved mentoring/coaching the new management team this coming year. Part of which may involve regular visits during build to offer help and advice, but also (bringing this full circle) taking some pics to document online, such as in a build thread (thanks for the idea).

[Adam J.]

I hear you both. I know that this forum has a well-deserved reputation for overly critical feedback and that many, if not most teams, fail to get their priorities straight and manage their time poorly; part of the learning experience of FSAE in my opinion. Maintaining a build thread could indeed open teams up to criticism and is one more thing to do in an already-busy project.

However, I still think that the opportunity to have one on a dedicated section within this website could be of some benefit to teams willing to participate, able to handle criticism, and able to manage time well. My experience with updating build threads on some of my other project vehicles has been that I take few pictures, put 'em on photobucket, embed them in my thread with a few comments and call it good. I've never really seen it as a big time-consumer. As for the feedback teams may get, I've always found that there is a way to take over-the-top criticism in stride.

Anyways, just a thought. Ultimately it's out of hands.

[cajunboy]

I think if a category is made for it on the site someone will get around to starting one. I know when I did one for a motorcycle I built on another forum it was a huge help as was reading the build threads of others, and I learned things a lot faster than I would have otherwise.

My one suggestion for anyone who does begin one is that you should upload your photos to the forum instead of using an outside hosting service. There are so many good posts in the archives filled with broken links to photos that have disappeared which ruins the value of the thread in a lot of instances.

[mtheo]

As a recently new member of the FSAE community, I support this.

When I started last year on the U of M - Dearborn team all I really had to go off of as a freshman were old racing books and bugging every member of my team with questions that only gave me small pieces to the puzzle.

In my second year I'm defiantly catching on. But, being able to read a build thread with a similar set up to the car we were building would've boosted my knowledge base ten fold.

[Dunk Mckay]

As a recently new member of the FSAE community, I support this.

When I started last year on the U of M - Dearborn team all I really had to go off of as a freshman were old racing books and bugging every member of my team with questions that only gave me small pieces to the puzzle.

In my second year I'm defiantly catching on. But, being able to read a build thread with a similar set up to the car we were building would've boosted my knowledge base ten fold.

That's a really goo point. And has motivated me further to try to get something set up this year within my old team. One of the easiest ways I've found to get them to do things is to give them a template document and a clearly outlined process to follow, with a schedule. In this case that would probably mean a word document template into which they could post pictures and summary text. Along with that a poster to stick on the workshop wall with some guiding principals as to what should trigger them to take photos and scribble something down to typre up later. They could then print to PDF/screenshot, and post it on here.

Won't know until probably Feb/March next year if it starts working, but if it does, and people are interested, I'll make the templates & guides available to anybody that wants them.

[BillCobb]

Let's take a look at this proposal from the standpoint of the Law of Unintended Consequences. Recall that Scientists try to get one thing right, they publish a tecnical paper and go on to pursue a PhD. Engineers try to determine things that can possibly go wrong so that they can protect themselves, their employer and of course the purchasers/receivers of their technical wizardry. The LUC strings are not too hard to pull together.

1. Build thread leads to common car template(s). Common powerplant(s) common wheels and tires, common aero package and common chassis.

2. Pursuit by Globalist mainstreaming to accelerate growth and education in countries with rising expectations leads to the rise in levels of government supported theft of intellectual property, processes and claims.

3. With 'common' cars, you no longer need judges with experience and knowledge. They only need to know about manufacturing standards. So, you go from engineering savvy to kit car assembly (Soap Box Derby comes to mind).

4. Competition consists of the tactics of driving, not strategic planning (unless of course you would be able to clone a Mario Andretti with your gene printer.

5. All entrants would now be getting the same trophy to eliminate the stigma of coming in second or LAST. You know, just like Little League baseball or soccer in the U.S. Some extra cost for trophies here, but maybe all you need to give then is a CNC file for making them on a 3D printer.

6. Why would any team publish or advertize its superior technology? Could a team publish false or misleading tactics and misleading info (I'd hope so !!) as a means to the end ?

7. Teams will drop out as their members pursue other endeavors with higher levels of reward and long term employment possibilities.

BTW: I've noticed that on another venue (The Formula Student H-Bomb Forum) the North Korean team has been asking for a build thread to be formed. This would sure save them a lot of time and embarassment (and maybe even their own lives in case anti-aircraft guns or RPGs are authorized by Great Leader). What do you think? Need I mention that before I got into Vehicle Dynamics, I was a Relativistic Physics major at R.P.I. ? Maybe I should give that thread a head start by posting the plans and instructions of my own teams technology ( a tad old, but certainly not outdated). Und Ich habe Herr Dr. Edward Teller as a visitink guest lecturer back in the day. Dr. Strangelove had one of these, too, if you would kindly recall (A Nuclear Bomb Effects Computer calculator sitting right here on my console --- er, desk).

[Adman]

Not sure I would fully agree with you BillCobb. It is definitely a circumstance you want to avoid, whereby teams learn "how to build an FSAE car" by copying one team or another. But how would a build thread lend itself to that any more than browsing a team's Facebook page? Some teams are very open with what they post, and in our team's first year I was definitely scouring them for ideas and questioning why they had chosen 'method X'. By browsing nearly any team's social media you can usually work out whether they are single or 4cyl, what their suspension layout is, their tyre and wheel sizes... the only additional info a reader could get from a forum is information the team decides to reveal!
The difference with a forum build thread would simply be the addition of more engineering discussion as a focus, rather than the number of likes you can get with it.

[Dunk Mckay]

Bill, I hope your playing devil's advocate.

To borrow one of Big Bird's analogies, each team has to decide what recipe they can make best. Be it roast beef, chocolate pudding, or something else. Each team has a different level of expertise, different budgets, different support staff, different facilities, different requirements from their schools. Different, different, different! Straight copying of the best teams does not work.

Even the most thorough of build threads will, at most, show half of the 'what', and half of the 'how'. But almost none of the 'why'. Any team trying to copy another will struggle to create a decent design without understanding the 'why', and will do even worse in the design event for it. Not to mention having no clue how to set up their car.


The biggest shortcomings that I have seen and experienced in engineering education, are in design for manufacture and project/time management. Build threads would demonstrate manufacturing techniques and ideas that most teams weren't even aware of (and should be), as well as giving a good idea of the sort of timescale that different teams work to some extent how they manage their build schedule. Perhaps showing teams that come up with half a design in CAD and then spend 6 months putting a car together with "bodges" galore, that a fully designed car can be built and assembled stress free in just a few weeks.

If you want to FMEA the whole thing, though; you've identified failure modes, and I'd suggest I've shown that the severity would be very low. Now, considering the educational benefits, should we not be looking to Failure Mode Avoidance, so as to reap the benefits? Such as some guidelines for a potential Build Thread?

- Avoid discussing specific design dimensions, specifications or parameters.
- Do no disclose why you made specific design decisions. However educating others on your teams's process for decision making (the 'how') is encouraged.