KTM 500 Stock Maps and engine problems

[harshitr2]

Hello guys,

I am from IITK Motorsports Formula Student team, India. I am doing the electronics for the car. We are running a KTM 500 EXC motor this year and we've imported it from UK.
We have been facing some strange issues with running the engine with the stock EFI system. If all the sensors are connected, the FI warning light is all right, but there is no pulse to the injector on cranking. There is spark though. On removing the coolant temp sensor, and then cranking, there is pulse to the injector, but it cuts out above 1500-1600 rpm. I've checked the coolant temp sensor resistance and its correct. The values for all other sensors have been checked by back probing, and all are giving in range values. After all these efforts, we are bound to conclude that there is some problem with the ECU.

With just one month remaining for the competition and the engine not running, we are out of options. A new stock ECU would cost us around $350- $400 after shipping and customs, and around 10 -12 days time. While discussing this with the team, we came to a point that if we buy an ECU from Performance Electronics, and we get the stock maps from KTM (or somewhere else), we would consider that over the stock ECU, because KTM and our engine dealer have provided really poor technical support. With the PE ECU, we would at least have something to diagnose, along with good community support. Plus the ECU was already in agenda for next year's car, so no waste of money there.

Just wanted to ask you guys, if some of you have the stock maps for the KTM 500 EXC or XCW (or any map that would get the engine running at the competition). I am really not asking for anything you have tuned or created, just the stock ones, if you are willing to share. I'll be really grateful!

Thanks in advance,

-Harshit

[Luniz]

Does the standard loom and ECU have a sidestand sensor? Usually, motorbikes cannot be started while the side stand is still out, and they have a sensor to detect that. If there is a place for it on the loom, you'll have to "emulate" this sensor.

[harshitr2]

Does the standard loom and ECU have a sidestand sensor

The EXC doesn't come with a side stand switch. There is none shown in the wiring diagram. I've read multiple posts on KTM forums, but never mentioned anywhere. There is a roll over sensor though, but it's in place and is in upright position.

[Claude Rouelle]

Harshit,
First thing first and this is not a technical comment or answer but an organization question...
You are speaking about FSI 2016, correct? Aren't you supposed to already have sent a video of the car running? How would have that been possible without a working engine?

[harshitr2]

Claude,

The engine wasn't running at the time of video submission. We made sure everything else was ready and working. Non submission would have resulted in disqualification, so we had to submit at least what was complete. So at last, the video was made where one guy pushed the car manually, however the video was rejected due to this very reason. We knew this would call for a penalty, but this was the only option then

[Claude Rouelle]

Harshit,

So you had to make a choice between rejection and disqualification and you made the choice of the first one, correct? Will this help you to participate to FSI 2016 end of January?

Claude

[smokebreak]

First verify that you have correctly phased signals from the crank and cam sensors using an oscilloscope, or whatever you're using for checking injector pulse with some ingenuity. If that checks out and you think it is ECT related try "emulating" it using a resistor of 80 C degrees (or potentiometer) and verify thru display. If correctly displayed and still not running move on to checking oil pressure and the oil pressure switch, as well as other interfering switches (clutch, neutral, etc.). Of course check all wiring, fuses, and relays thoroughly.

John

[harshitr2]

Thanks John for suggestions.
The engine is up and running fine after replacing the ECU. The previous ECU had some problems. It started immediately on swapping the ECU! We are finally doing some testing since last week. Thanks everyone for your inputs!

Claude, I don't know what to say. I understand your concerns on teams with little experience coming to the competition without proper testing and having a hard time out there. With the car ready well before time, and the kind of trouble our engine gave was simply getting our minds to dirt. We had absolutely no resolve to the situation, and this was all we could do in the last moment.

Harshit

[Claude Rouelle]

Harshit,

If the engine did not run, the car did not run: the car was NOT ready. Ready for the competition, in my mind at least, doesn't mean the car "just" running. It means it has been tested, and developed and find a right setup (tire pressure, camber, toe. ride height, spring, ARB, damper wing angle(if any) etc....

Inevitably a few parts will break, you will do failure analysis, redesign, re-manufacture those parts and test again. And you will train the drivers!

This testing, development, breaking, re-design, re-manufacture, re-design process takes months.

What difficult for me to understand is why some FSAE / FS teams are not able to understand that roughly 1/2 of the time should be used in the concept / simulation / design / manufacturing / assembling process and the other 1/2 in the testing / breaking/ failure analysis/ re-design, re-manufacture, / re-test / development / driver training process. If the team can't do that in 1 year, it might consider do it in a 2 year process. It is just about using each team member resources and imagination to face the reality of putting together realistic goals and means (time being one of the essential means).

Based on some comments I saw in previous thread of this forum, I believe whether the team is made from students (besides the faculty adviser it should only be made of students) or not is irrelevant. Some teams including first year team, and including from India, were able to run their car if not several months, at least several weeks before the competition. Why you didn't is up to your own reflection. I just hope you can learn from that.

With the 3 months ahead of the competition detailed picture and 2 months video of the car running submission system, FSI has created a system that should help you to get ready better and sooner. In my opinion it is the best FS document submission system I have seen in the FS world and for sure the most appropriate for India.