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Thread: 2015 FSAE Michigan

  1. #61
    There are some insinuations about the judges that I don't think are fair. Keep in mind that many of the judges are engineers at the top levels of motorsport or within their industries, they have a love for FSAE (remember they don't get paid for this and pay their own hotel rooms, flights, rental cars etc), and many are FSAE alum. They have a high level of respect for the students and their efforts (those who don't are not invited back). Most if not all judges spend considerable amounts of personal time re-familarizing themselves with the rules, reading design reports of their teams and teams from other ques to get an idea of the level of competition. They know the students take it seriously and they are just as anxious and afraid of screwing up as the students.

    There is perhaps some disagreement among all the parties involved what the design judging event should be exactly, and some judges can be led astray or force conversations of the micro when 20,000 manhours is condensed into 40 minutes demands more overview. It's important however that judges get a feeling for depth as well as breadth of knowledge, and sometimes questions are asked as much to see the reaction and the level of preparation as they are asking for a value. It's still in my mind the teams responsibility for redirecting the conversation back on track or to indulge the judge with answers to obscure questions. Answers can be cleverly answered using the teams design goals as part of the calculation which can sometimes right the ship. Ultimately it's a competition against your peers and that judge will do his best to grade all teams on the same scale. The determination of who goes on to secondary is a group decision and unanimous agreement by all judges in a que is very typical, which eliminates some of the impact of a single 'bad' judge.

    The head design judges do a tremendous job, and the amount of work that goes into the event and the preparation by all the judges is significant. I know that the head judges are also quite open to input and try to improve the process and make it more objective each year.
    'engine and turbo guy'
    Cornell 02-03

  2. #62
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    I think you are able to be critical of what is emphasized in the design event while still being incredibly grateful for the time and effort the design judges put in.

    A decision was made a number of years ago to decide on design before endurance was run. I think this was a mistake, as it has shown that judges are not able to assess reliability reliably.

    We have a number of design finalists that are unreliable, or uncompetitive. Ultimately a teams understanding and design ability is put to the test with the product they develop. I worry very much if we are training a generation of engineers that depth of knowledge is more important than designing functional products. As engineers our trade is in solving problems, using knowledge when and where it is appropriate. A vast difference to the scientist who develops knowledge with no clear view of its final use.

    Kev
    Last edited by Kevin Hayward; 05-22-2015 at 07:17 PM.

  3. #63
    I agree with you all. If you don't like the design event in Michigan, you should definitely come to FS Spain. I mean, don't get me wrong, the whole event is very nice, good weather, ambient, and the dynamic tracks are very good for both drivers and spectators, which I think is important as a large % of the team put their lives into that car are not allowed into the dynamics area, so at leas they should get a good view of the dynamic events, not like in FSAE Michigan 2007. But the design judges (many, not all) are people who know a lot less of the whole racecar thing than some students, and they try to steer the "discussion" to spend the whole design event focusing on their particular minuscule area of knowledge. To me (as a close observer and after many Michigan events for comparison), the design event was way off what it should be (goals and how you met these goals and so on, everything you guys have put here). And design reviews were completely useless, with judges, again, showing basic knowledge flaws in mechanics and vehicle dynamics.

    I do like quiz questions, or at least, good questions. Of course, the complete score and discussion time should not be about that, at all. But I think relevant quiz questions popped out of nowhere can show realities and flaws of the team's knowledge and how they approach their design, realities and flaws that their perfectly prepared presentation is, prepared, to mask. I have not been a judge but I would guess that, as a judge, you can not approach a design event the same way for both a top team and a team with a car showing basic knowledge/design flaws. Even if the car shows it or not, I think quiz questions can tell you a lot about the reality of what that team has thought of and discussed and what not. Of course, what does KPI do or questions like that are not thrilling, but I have been asked very good (some basic, some not so basic) questions in the design event and design reviews, some very close related to the actual dynamic events, and the questions clearly filtered those who had already thought of that in the team and those who had no idea. Some of the times, the questions could be answered by yes, that is why this is this or that way in the car, look at it. Some other tims it was more like, well, never though about that, and that would definitely change my next years design heheee.

  4. #64
    Does anyone (Bob?) know something about this penalty list?

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...message_bubble

    It seems like Graz has (had?) a 10 point penalty as well, which would have put GFR back to the top but it is not included in the Overall Results.
    Was the penalty removed?
    -------------------------------------------
    Alumnus
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    ETH Zürich

    2010-2011: Suspension
    2012: Aerodynamics
    2013: Technical Lead

    2014: FSA Engineering Design Judge

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by JulianH View Post
    Does anyone (Bob?) know something about this penalty list?

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...message_bubble

    It seems like Graz has (had?) a 10 point penalty as well, which would have put GFR back to the top but it is not included in the Overall Results.
    Was the penalty removed?
    Direct from SAE: the penalty was incorrect and was removed.
    Last edited by bob.paasch; 05-31-2015 at 06:18 PM.
    Bob Paasch
    Faculty Advisor
    Global Formula Racing team/Oregon State SAE

  6. #66
    Teams being successful in design and not faring well in the dynamic events has been common for quite a while - was much the same last year. (from a post of mine august last year -> "Interesting to note: The top 5 in Design at 2014 FSG didnt finish endurance, 1 of the Top 5 in Design at Michigan finished endurance (GFR, 4th) and ETS has won design twice this year (Michigan and North), but failed to compete either competitions endurance.")

    A quick count through the preliminary results suggests the endurance finishing rate is ~32% too, which is pretty much on par with what I would expect: ie: still very poor. I have only ever seen a single failure of a vehicle which I considered outside of the teams control (another teams master link puncturing their tyre). Starter motors failing, tyres deflating as kev said are all things which can and should be tested and validated before a competition. For example we test out wheel/tyres - recording pressures to ensure they do not change and are holding pressure in the lead up to comp. In my opinion teams poorly balance the trade off between ensuring reliability and performance optimisation - with too much time spent on the latter.

    Discussion regarding budgets and drivers:
    Good to see Florida (3rd) and Kookmin (4th) doing well. Goes to show you don't need unobtainium uprights, etc to do well, both had steel space frames, 13" wheels, Kookmin didn't have wings either, etc . I believed that the vehicle design technical performance design work impacted about 20% of your competition placing. The rest was around 30% reliability, 20% driver training, 20% static event preparation and the remainder in setup/tuning.
    Drivers are also a big factor - but you also have control over this. Getting the car finished very early to provide your driver lots of time for training is hugely important - previous cars can be used too. They can also read books on driving and do physical training.
    Curtin Motorsport Team
    2011 - 2014

  7. #67
    Official results released: http://www.sae.org/images/cds/selfse...015_result.pdf

    TUG was moved down to 3rd promoting both UF and GFR 1 spot (GFR still beat UF by 3.3 points).
    Last edited by Dylan Edmiston; 06-11-2015 at 10:35 AM.
    University of Florida - Gator Motorsports
    Project Manager (2012 - 2013)
    Electrical System Leader (2010 - 2015)
    Powertrain/Engine Tuner (2011 - 2015)

  8. #68
    Wow, Florida only 3,3 points away from the biggest sensation in the last FSAE decades. Awesome, congrats!

    Sad to see that Graz got a penalty so late... but the rules are the rules.
    -------------------------------------------
    Alumnus
    AMZ Racing
    ETH Zürich

    2010-2011: Suspension
    2012: Aerodynamics
    2013: Technical Lead

    2014: FSA Engineering Design Judge

  9. #69
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    Where did Graz lose ~30+ points? And why?

    Z

  10. #70
    Z, on the SAE homepage, there is a letter about this topic:

    http://www.sae.org/servlets/pressRoo...ELEASE_ID=3051

    To summarize (what I heard / read): When Graz refueled after Endurance the amount that went into the tank was really small. So they had to refuel again. According to a new 2015 rule, this amount of "second refuelling" gets added twice to your fuel amout (as kind of a penalty). Therefore Graz lost about 30 points.
    -------------------------------------------
    Alumnus
    AMZ Racing
    ETH Zürich

    2010-2011: Suspension
    2012: Aerodynamics
    2013: Technical Lead

    2014: FSA Engineering Design Judge

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