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Thread: Proposed delay for 2015 rules to 2016

  1. #31
    Many members of my team are in full support of delaying the rules change until next year when they can be distributed before conceptual and detailed design. Here are some reasons:

    * FSAE cars are more advanced than ever and to be competitive against teams with many years of iterative design, younger teams must start the design process early (i.e. May)

    * Judges and faculty advisers always stress finishing the car early so it can be properly developed in testing. How can this be done with only 8 months from the cradle to the grave?

    * On aero cars, every aspect of the vehicle's design (suspension, power, chassis, electronics placement, etc.) is influenced by aerodynamic sizing and location. Being unaware of the aero regulations prior to design will result in vehicl es that are not cohesively thought out. Isn't cohesive/integrated design another piece of feedback that is always being stressed to the students by judges and faculty?

    * The aero team at my school literally received tentative 2015 aero rules 2 days before the Conceptual Design Review. The committee should recognize that given the cars' more advanced nature, releasing the rules in August or September is no longer reasonable--thus a delay to 2016 should be enacted.
    Andrew Cunningham
    California FSAE

    Car Chief, 2013
    Team Lead, 2014
    Aerodynamics Lead, 2015

  2. #32
    The question is: How much is really going to be changed?

    Everybody now knows about the smaller wings, so you can design your car for 30-40% less downforce compared to 2013, if you ran big wings this year.
    Unsprung aero seems to be still legal, so if you planned to go there, you still can.
    Reduce noise level: I think it should still be possible to run single-cylinders, you just have to work more on the noise. Not an expert in this but if a team can go from 133 dB to "passing noise" at competition, it shouldn't be a major design problem to plan for that.
    Larger engines: Ok it sucks that you probably can't go to a 650cc/700cc engine if it's allowed for 2015 because the timeline is to short to check what is "now legal" and maybe choose an engine from this category. But you still can start working on this engine for 2016 (which would be the same if the rules are pushed back a year). I think nobody has a disadvantage here. Same goes for the turbo's.
    4WD eCars: At least in Germany and probably in Austria, the power limit for 4WD and 2WD will stay the same. Probably they will get reduced but that will not make a difference in car design. In the US nobody seems to really care about 4WD, so not really a problem...

    Of course, if there is a real "game changer" like the templates back in 2009(?), then your have a problem, that's true.
    So far I'm not seeing one.

    Cunningham,
    I think the "smaller teams" can use this to their advantage. Next year, a well finished car with a lot of testing might be able to achieve Top10 as easy as never before if the "big well-funded teams" are too busy trying to figure out the best new concept...

    About Curtin running in Europe 2015: Yes, that's sad and it will be difficult for the European teams to go to Michigan as well, but if it is really just Aero and you have the budget to travel overseas, I'm convinced that you are also able to build the 2015 wing set a bit early and put it on the old car. The car might be designed for a bit higher loads but ok... if the new rules come 2016, Monash will have to choose to build two cars as well or a "adapted" 2015 version for Europe or have a "not perfect version" for the 2015 Australian competition.


    I look forward to see the rules in the next couple of days and then it's easier to discuss if a delay is something to think about. To be honest, I also thing that the rule makers probably won't care...
    -------------------------------------------
    Alumnus
    AMZ Racing
    ETH Zürich

    2010-2011: Suspension
    2012: Aerodynamics
    2013: Technical Lead

    2014: FSA Engineering Design Judge

  3. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by JulianH View Post
    The question is: How much is really going to be changed?... 4WD eCars: At least in Germany and probably in Austria, the power limit for 4WD and 2WD will stay the same...
    I'll pose a thought experiment to you Julian. What if 4WD were banned in 3 days? Would that be enough of an effect on your team to make you think twice about a late rules release?
    Last edited by Swiftus; 08-26-2014 at 02:19 AM. Reason: German keyboard typo
    Jay Swift
    Combustion Powertrain
    Global Formula Racing 2013-2014

  4. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Swiftus View Post
    I'll pose a thought experiment to you Julian. What if 4WD were banned in 3 days? Would that be enough of an effect on your team to make you think twice about a late rules release?
    No problem there.
    The only thing "we" have of the new car at that stage is a laptime simulation with some design guidelines, a dirty CFD of a proposed 2015 Aero package and the seat (we run the same seat since 2010: Never change a winning seat!).

    "Our" new team starts middle of September. So, at the moment the team does not know which person is going to do what and as a team that does not carry over much more than the seat from last year, it wouldn't be a problem for Zurich to go back to 2WD.

    I think banning 4WD is still one of those "game changers" I talked about. If a US team wanted to go 4WD for Lincoln 2015 and it would be banned "in three days", yes that would "change my mind". Just different wing sizes does not. Because those are known right now.

    If the chassis rules would change so that the 2014 frames / monocoques are illegal, yeah that would be an issue if teams plan to re-use their frame. So far, I don't see that happening though.

    To give the question back to you:
    What changes would affect you so that you don't see yourself able to build a freaky fast car for Michigan?
    -------------------------------------------
    Alumnus
    AMZ Racing
    ETH Zürich

    2010-2011: Suspension
    2012: Aerodynamics
    2013: Technical Lead

    2014: FSA Engineering Design Judge

  5. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by JulianH View Post
    The only thing "we" have of the new car at that stage is a laptime simulation with some design guidelines, a dirty CFD of a proposed 2015 Aero package and the seat (we run the same seat since 2010: Never change a winning seat!).
    AMZ already has a knowledge base for how to control 4WD system, right? And I bet AMZ spent a lot of effort and time and money amounting the knowledge necessary for a 4WD solution so that the next year's design engineers could stand on the shoulder of giants. I think you are selling AMZ short when you say the only thing you have of the new car is a lap sim and a seat.

    Quote Originally Posted by JulianH View Post
    What changes would affect you so that you don't see yourself able to build a freaky fast car for Michigan?
    I am pretty sure our cars will be quick no matter what rule changes take place, however it would be in spite of the late release of the rules, not because of them.

    The issue is that in order to build a complete car concept, you have to conceptualize the car completely in the first place. The chassis must be designed in parallel to the suspension which must be designed in parallel to the powertrain which must be designed in parallel to the aero.
    Jay Swift
    Combustion Powertrain
    Global Formula Racing 2013-2014

  6. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Swiftus View Post
    AMZ already has a knowledge base for how to control 4WD system, right? And I bet AMZ spent a lot of effort and time and money amounting the knowledge necessary for a 4WD solution so that the next year's design engineers could stand on the shoulder of giants. I think you are selling AMZ short when you say the only thing you have of the new car is a lap sim and a seat.
    Of course. We have some fancy control mechanisms for 4WD. But if 4WD is forbidden, we have to throw those things away or maybe try to adapt them back to 2WD where they came from (2012 Torque Vectoring with two motors). I'm not selling them short. I think all 4WD teams have great knowledge in those areas but if it's forbidden, well than it's just gone... It doesn't make the "new best concept" any slower. It just reduces "our" advantage compared to the teams that haven't run 4WD so far.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swiftus View Post
    The issue is that in order to build a complete car concept, you have to conceptualize the car completely in the first place. The chassis must be designed in parallel to the suspension which must be designed in parallel to the powertrain which must be designed in parallel to the aero.
    Don't take it the wrong way, but your team showed that you still can be the fastest out there with a 5 year old monocoque mold and still different aero packages
    More serious: Sure, concept is key. But if the frame rules stay the same and the suspension rules stay the same and you know that your aero is producing X% less downforce, your basically there. Yes the powertrain rules will come late. We will not see a lot of teams trying to adapt new engines for 2015.

    Yes, the rules come too late but from what I heard and read about them, I think the "fear of the new rules" is not really justified. There are changes but not a lot that really influence the main concept of the car.
    But sure, the excuse "Yeah rules came too late, car finished too late, we didn't test, we are a standing team" will come up quite often next year. A small team that is well-prepared might have a good chance next year to upset the competition...
    Last edited by JulianH; 08-26-2014 at 06:59 AM.
    -------------------------------------------
    Alumnus
    AMZ Racing
    ETH Zürich

    2010-2011: Suspension
    2012: Aerodynamics
    2013: Technical Lead

    2014: FSA Engineering Design Judge

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by JulianH View Post
    But sure, the excuse "Yeah rules came too late, car finished too late, we didn't test, we are a standing team" will come up quite often next year. A small team that is well-prepared might have a good chance next year to upset the competition...
    If you're a small enough team that your car winds up not competing due to the changes in aero, you're missing the point here. The saying "To finish first, you must first finish" comes to mind here. Maybe, instead of focusing on "WE MUST MAKE AERO BECAUSE FASTER" you should focus on having a running car at competition. I was going to say "running, well sorted" there, but as long as you have a car that runs and can complete endurance you can still finish far more reasonable than if you don't. I remember a few years we beat some big name schools because for whatever reason they failed endurance and we didn't. Running a carburetor on a Honda 450.

    Trust me, the payoff of completing competition successfully is far better than trying to do what the cool kids are doing and failing. It also gives you a good start point for the future, as well as the confidence and marketability of an actually running car.
    Any views or opinions expressed by me may in no way reflect those of Stewart-Haas Racing, Kettering University, or their employees, students, administrators or sponsors.

  8. #38
    According to Tobias (@TobiasMic on Twitter) the 2015 Rules will be published today.

    Afterwards we can further discuss which changes will create issues for the teams. Gonna be interessting...
    -------------------------------------------
    Alumnus
    AMZ Racing
    ETH Zürich

    2010-2011: Suspension
    2012: Aerodynamics
    2013: Technical Lead

    2014: FSA Engineering Design Judge

  9. #39
    "full 2015-2016 FSAE Rules are still scheduled for release on August 29th"

    So 29th has come and gone, but whats another deadline missed I guess.

    How are the teams planning to go to Michigan expected to build a car with competition less than 9 months away and the rules still un-confirmed!?
    Curtin Motorsport Team
    2011 - 2014

  10. #40
    Maybe the RC will get a fifty point penalty for missing the deadline.
    WWU FSAE
    2010-2011 Chassis/Welder
    2011-2012 Tech Director
    2012-2014 Project Manager/Welder

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