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Thread: Tyre Modeling

  1. #1

    Tyre Modeling

    I'm responsible for the dynamics of a FSAE team and I'm having problem modeling tire using the tire data from Avon web site

    http://www.avonmotorsport.com/resource-centre/downloads

    The Formula Ford Slick ones.

    How can I do simple manipulation with the data so it be useful to me? There is any paper or material to study?

    Thanks
    Last edited by LuisN; 05-27-2014 at 08:09 AM.

  2. #2
    Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuisN View Post
    ...can I do simple manipulation with the data so it be useful to me?
    No.

    My short answer assumes that you are: a) starting with little or no background on tires/tire_data and b) the definition of "simple manipulation" is to obtain useful quantitative results in a few days. There is a huge initial learning curve. After several months or years, the answer *might* change to "Yes'.

    Quote Originally Posted by LuisN View Post
    There is any paper or material to study?
    Yes - many, but none of the useful references are short or easy.

    This SAE paper, 2006-01-3606 "The Formula SAE Tire Test Consortium—Tire Testing and Data Handling" describes the process involved in lab testing, http://www.millikenresearch.com/TTC_SAE_paper.pdf The link is from the TTC public page,
    http://www.millikenresearch.com/fsaettc.html As you read it, consider the possible differences between the TTC tests on a flat roadway vs. the Avon tests on a ~67 inch / 1.7 meter diameter drum (note, there are many other differences between these two lab tests).

    Our book RCVD, SAE R-146, has two chapters on tires that introduce the subject, and various simple tire models are used throughout the vehicle analysis chapters.

    Pacejka's book, "Tyre and Vehicle Dynamics" has become a standard reference.

    The "tire bible", published by the US Department of Transportation includes numerous papers on different aspects of tires, "The Pneumatic Tire" DOT HS 810 561, February 2006. This 3rd edition, ~700 pages, is available online as a pdf. The first (red) and second (blue) editions, are (as far as I know) only available in print. As a broad characterization, these first two editions focus on bias ply and radial tires, respectively.

  3. #3
    Doug Milliken,

    Compared to suspension geometry I'm starting to learn tire modelling. The problem is, I was doing some research and calculation with R25B with some graphics that I already know what means, just the basics. It's our and my first year in FSAE competition.

    So our tires didn't arrived, more precisely the rims. Now all my work on R25B Hoosier is kind of useless because I have to deal with the Avon Formula Ford 6/21-13. Furthermore I have no idea how to use Avon data, assuming that I have little knowledge in this area.

    There is anything that can be done in a week? We are 142 days from the competition and my tire changed.

    My dead line is Saturday.

    Thanks

  4. #4
    LuisN
    Carroll Smith tune to win for basics on tire.


    Regards
    M.logan

  5. #5
    Senior Member
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    Luis,

    What kind of work have you done on the R25B's? If you haven't set up any models then you are at square 1 and might want to take Doug's advice. Personally, at this stage, I'd put the tyres on the car and tune it.
    Jay

    UoW FSAE '07-'09

  6. #6
    So, if you're in charge of the tires, then let me ask one question: Why did they "get changed"? Who changed them? I thought you were in charge?

    What I'd suggest: Try to come up with some very simple load transfers for steady state cornering, then look at the tire curves in this excel from avon and try to "eyeball" the operating parameters (Camber/Slip...) that fit best. Adjust your suspension and steering geometry accordingly and do everything else on the test track. Building and validating a tire model, integrating it in a multibody code and running it in a week is impossible.

    my 0.02$...
    Lutz Dobrowohl
    2008-2011
    Raceyard Kiel

    Now: Scruitineer, Design Judge, application engineer @Altair engineering

    Whatever you do, do it hard!

  7. #7
    Thanks for all,

    I'll do an simple geometry, put the tires on the car and tune it with ARB and camber adjustments. I'd like to do some load transfer that and camber gain that helps the tire work but it will not be possible.

    How can I take Pacejka's data from avon and plot ideal slip angle versus load?

    Thanks again, Luis Nigro
    Last edited by LuisN; 05-28-2014 at 07:53 AM.

  8. #8
    Senior Member
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    Pacejka's data is a set of coefficients for fitting curves. If you don't have curves (tire data from Avon) then you can't really fit it to anything.

    What would you be able to do with ideal slip angle information?
    Jay

    UoW FSAE '07-'09

  9. #9
    LuisN,

    My friend you might find the following a really good resource,

    Creating tyre models from nothing,

    http://www.chassissim.com/blog/chass...s-from-nothing

    Also a lot of the ChassisSim community have found the following really helpful,

    http://www.chassissim.com/blog/chass...-in-the-blanks

    I trust this will be of assistance to you.

    All the Best

    Danny Nowlan
    Director
    ChassisSim Technologies

  10. #10
    Jay,

    With ideal slip angle vs normal load combined with load transfer I'd be able to determinate the Ackermann geometry.

    -o-O-o-

    Danny Nowlan,

    Thanks, that is the magic that I need.

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