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Thread: 2014 FSAE Michigan

  1. #21
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    Julian,

    You have made some good points to think about. The GFR results in Europe are interesting. I had a discussion with a design judge (US based) who mentioned that in his opinion GFR were leagues ahead of any of the teams he had seen with respect to their design knowledge and presentation. This was in the 2012 season.

    Your last point points out something I hadn't noticed in my initial observation. There definitely appears to be a slight bias towards the smaller engined cars, largely due to the lower mass that entails. I think the main issue is that their doesn't seem to be too much of a problem for the judges if a single cylinder car is in a range of around 20kg (say 140-160kg for a non-winged car) yet if a four is not one of the lowest mass fours it doesn't seem to get a look-in.

    I am always interested to see whether how well the design judges predict the overall performance of the vehicles (over time). For example if they have a bias towards the smaller engined cars and the bigger engine cars have conisistent superior performance I would call that an unfair bias. However if the reverse is true then it highlights their accuracy.

    Regardless, apart from an anomolly with the non-NA teams it looks like the design scores correlate pretty well on performance. It does highlight again that the judges are paying less attention to reliability than they used to. The top 3 design results went to teams that did not complete endurance. This is similar to recent years in the US and sends a strong message to teams that a good design event score is not contingent on being able to finish all events. Given that a good design event finish is crucial to a good event finish (unless all the top design points scorers fail to complete endurance) it indicates that teams should be less conservative and reliability focused with their designs if they are chasing a win in the US.

    Kev

  2. #22
    Having competed and judged in both the US and Germany, I have not seen an appreciable difference in what the judges are looking for between these two competitions (but I am only one data point). I have, however, seen a big difference at the UK competition.

    Also, I have NEVER been part of a design judging team where a judge's personal preference affected the final scores. The scores come from the composite opinions of many judges, so personal preferences get filtered out. And let me assure you that the judges have many different ideas of what the best car might be!
    "Gute Fahrer haben die Fliegenreste auf den Seitenscheiben."
    --Walter Röhrl

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by JulianH View Post
    - The European teams that travel overseas are normally the "big teams" with 4cyl (or 2cyl turbo..), CFRP monocoque, wings and all crazy features. If the US judges don't like that, than all are "screwed" a bit. Maybe a different "style" of European team would have scored differently.
    If there is a bias against this, it isn't just them. Remember it was mostly American teams (plus Monash) that pioneered the concept up to 2010-2011. If anything people are more open to the concepts now because "the Germans are doing it, so it must be good" mentality.
    Trent Strunk
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Hayward View Post
    I am interested to hear whether there is a gap building between Europe and the US when it comes to the approach to the competition. Of the design finalists only one was a non north-American team (Karlsruhe Institute of Technology). Out of the top 4 of the competition there were 3 non-American teams that didn't make design finals.

    For those that are competing is this a case of those teams just not presenting well in design, or do you believe the US judges are looking for something different to those in Europe?
    Are the results of one year that big of a deal? The Europeans have been doing quite well at the MIS design events for some time. You might even say dominating. I think it is a bit of a stretch to see a trend from one years results (unless there was a big shake up in organizers/judges). Same with the failure rates, I think it is likely that we are discussing noise...

    MIS top 5 in design (GFR omitted)
    2014: ETS, Karlsruhe, Wisconsin Madison, Ohio
    2013: Talin, Stuttgart, Wisconsin Madison, TUGraz
    2012: Karlsruhe, Stuttgart, ETS, Munich, TUGraz
    2011: TUGraz, Stuttgart, Munich, RIT
    2010: ETS, TUGraz, (11 teams tied for 4th)

    Other than the top spot, North America was well represented at FSG last year.
    FSG top 5 in design
    2013: Karlsruhe, ETS, Akron, RIT, Montréal U McGill

    Wouldn't it be crazy if each continent turned out to have a reverse bias!
    Chris Patton
    Vehicle Dynamics
    Global Formula Racing '10-'12
    OSU Beaver Racing '05-'09

  5. #25
    do you guys post pictures of the competition on your fb now? nothing on public space where i can view them?
    RiNaZ

  6. #26
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    I, too, would have liked to see a lot more details of the cars. Even just the usual photo lists. Anyone...???

    One thing that stands out from the results sheets (IMO) is that Acceleration and Skid-Pad times seemed rather slow. Nowhere near the records. It didn't seem to be raining, so was it a particularly low-grip surface?

    Z

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by theTTshark View Post
    If there is a bias against this, it isn't just them. Remember it was mostly American teams (plus Monash) that pioneered the concept up to 2010-2011. If anything people are more open to the concepts now because "the Germans are doing it, so it must be good" mentality.
    I have not followed FS prior 2005, but I remember the 2005 TU Graz car with CFRP monocoque, aero, 4 banger and lots of sophisticated designs and electronics to be one of the pioneers of the complicated concepts. I could be impaired by the small size of my own bubble during this year, though.

    We need an online FS/FSAE car museum including stats which could be taken from the WRL!
    Regards,

    Tobias

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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by RiNaZ View Post
    do you guys post pictures of the competition on your fb now? nothing on public space where i can view them?
    If that was aimed at me, I am graduated and missing the pictures as much as you (maybe more?). I'm guessing the bulk of the team is still crammed in a van on their way home, so hopefully in a few days there will be more pictures available.
    Chris Patton
    Vehicle Dynamics
    Global Formula Racing '10-'12
    OSU Beaver Racing '05-'09

  9. #29
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    According design results I think you have multiple effects which partly contradict each other. If a team participates in an overseas competition their car is usually older than the local cars. Especially European teams often use the time between the last European comp to MIS to develop "evo kits" for their cars. It is not surprising that teams who had more time to collect data and experience with their car (and to sort out design errors) do better in design as local teams. A disadvantage might be that you normally have less team members with you at an overseas comp but I believe this is a minor effect. In my experience (I took part in ten competitions in five countries on three continents) it does vary between competitions what judges focus on and how the event is organised. Therefore you can also expect some variance in the results of a team which takes parts in a couple of competitions.

    As someone said before I wouldn't try to read a trend out of the result of one single competition. As it was shown during the last years European teams often scored better at MIS than at FSG or FS UK.
    Rennteam Uni Stuttgart
    2008: Seat and Bodywork
    2009: Team captain

    GreenTeam Uni Stuttgart
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    Formula Student Austria
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  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Z View Post
    One thing that stands out from the results sheets (IMO) is that Acceleration and Skid-Pad times seemed rather slow. Nowhere near the records. It didn't seem to be raining, so was it a particularly low-grip surface?
    Smooth asphalt, dusty, partly cloudy, cold. Surface estimated +3 °C, ambient started at 4 and rose to about +8 °C Friday morning.

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