+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 21

Thread: Application of Simulation, specifically Lap Time simulators and sensitivities

  1. #1
    Hey All,

    I've been thinking recently of all the various decisions that are made on FS cars at a conceptual stage, and the reasoning behind them. Often Rules-of-thumb, trend analysis from competitions, or copying from other teams generate numbers for wheelbase, track, CoG height, tyre choice, steering ratio, etc. etc. and having done all of the above myself (ssh!) I know that I dreaded being asked why I'd chosen them, as I'd have to respond with my most dreaded answer to any question ever (apart from 'ewww, no I will not, get out!'):

    'It worked last year'.

    I know that two of the answers to generating these nos. are testing and testing, along with iteration from previous years, but given the incredibly short development time of an FSAE car, and the hideously small amount of actual track time that most teams get, along with the high turnover of members, I wonder how much effort goes into simulation tools to try and predict at least an 'ideal' concept/setup for your cars?

    I know there are teams out there that have been at this game a lot longer than ours, and who have far greater knowledge of the competition and what it takes to be successful, and so I thought I'd start a post to discuss what people have done and what methods you might use to exploit simulation tools to your advantage when it comes to both developing a good car, and answering those dreaded questions in Design Judging.

    Of course, all simulations should be taken with a healthy dose of perspective in terms of what you're simulating, how, and what your results actually mean when compared to a real life car, but I see simulation as a vital tool in a world that is looking to cut cost and development times way beyond a cash-strapped FSAE team.

    Since I've graduated I've been lucky enough to work where there is a lot data acquisition and testing going on, particularly through rigs and dynos, but it has always been used to feed simulation accuracy as well as diagnose performance.

    I'm particularly interested in laptime simulations, as this is probably where I've had most experience and what I think offers greatest scope for establishing general relationships and sensitivities to what I'd call 'conceptual variables' like the numbers I mentioned above (compared to say FEA, or CFD).

    Do people use laptime simulators, like lapSim, RaceSim, piSim or other products (or even written their own) to establish an 'ideal' performance of their car? Have people done much work in terms of varying key parameters of their car to see the effects? Could this be a useful tool for establishing which areas of a car need most attention, in terms of lowering weight or lowering CoG or moving roll centres or whatever you might be interested in?

    Obviously as with all simulation garbage in = garbage out, and I imagine most simulations will be specific to a particular car (depending on the amount of work you want to put into your model); so where in the design loop do people use their simulations (i.e. do you review last years car and iterate on that, or at the start of the new car work with a simple model, or simply update the model as you go along)? And how much testing goes into providing accurate inputs to the model (beyond design values, one can use these models to establish sensitivies to installation stiffness, or chassis stiffness and give an informed answer when asked 'how stiff does your chassis need to be?' - this can then be backed up with bench testing, which is cheaper and can provide more detail than track testing)?

    Woah, so a bit of a brain dump, but hopefully someone will decipher it and respond with their thoughts! ;-)

    B
    Mind the rad!
    Full Blue Racing Alumnus, Cambridge, UK

  2. #2
    Hey All,

    I've been thinking recently of all the various decisions that are made on FS cars at a conceptual stage, and the reasoning behind them. Often Rules-of-thumb, trend analysis from competitions, or copying from other teams generate numbers for wheelbase, track, CoG height, tyre choice, steering ratio, etc. etc. and having done all of the above myself (ssh!) I know that I dreaded being asked why I'd chosen them, as I'd have to respond with my most dreaded answer to any question ever (apart from 'ewww, no I will not, get out!'):

    'It worked last year'.

    I know that two of the answers to generating these nos. are testing and testing, along with iteration from previous years, but given the incredibly short development time of an FSAE car, and the hideously small amount of actual track time that most teams get, along with the high turnover of members, I wonder how much effort goes into simulation tools to try and predict at least an 'ideal' concept/setup for your cars?

    I know there are teams out there that have been at this game a lot longer than ours, and who have far greater knowledge of the competition and what it takes to be successful, and so I thought I'd start a post to discuss what people have done and what methods you might use to exploit simulation tools to your advantage when it comes to both developing a good car, and answering those dreaded questions in Design Judging.

    Of course, all simulations should be taken with a healthy dose of perspective in terms of what you're simulating, how, and what your results actually mean when compared to a real life car, but I see simulation as a vital tool in a world that is looking to cut cost and development times way beyond a cash-strapped FSAE team.

    Since I've graduated I've been lucky enough to work where there is a lot data acquisition and testing going on, particularly through rigs and dynos, but it has always been used to feed simulation accuracy as well as diagnose performance.

    I'm particularly interested in laptime simulations, as this is probably where I've had most experience and what I think offers greatest scope for establishing general relationships and sensitivities to what I'd call 'conceptual variables' like the numbers I mentioned above (compared to say FEA, or CFD).

    Do people use laptime simulators, like lapSim, RaceSim, piSim or other products (or even written their own) to establish an 'ideal' performance of their car? Have people done much work in terms of varying key parameters of their car to see the effects? Could this be a useful tool for establishing which areas of a car need most attention, in terms of lowering weight or lowering CoG or moving roll centres or whatever you might be interested in?

    Obviously as with all simulation garbage in = garbage out, and I imagine most simulations will be specific to a particular car (depending on the amount of work you want to put into your model); so where in the design loop do people use their simulations (i.e. do you review last years car and iterate on that, or at the start of the new car work with a simple model, or simply update the model as you go along)? And how much testing goes into providing accurate inputs to the model (beyond design values, one can use these models to establish sensitivies to installation stiffness, or chassis stiffness and give an informed answer when asked 'how stiff does your chassis need to be?' - this can then be backed up with bench testing, which is cheaper and can provide more detail than track testing)?

    Woah, so a bit of a brain dump, but hopefully someone will decipher it and respond with their thoughts! ;-)

    B
    Mind the rad!
    Full Blue Racing Alumnus, Cambridge, UK

  3. #3
    Simulation is certainly used extensively in pro motorsport for chassis and setup development. Writing the actual sim code and getting outputs is easy.

    Specific approaches, and what you pull out of it... is the 'good stuff' and generally held pretty tightly by those who use it.

  4. #4
    exFSAE I think that is exactly what this post is getting at. Maybe you could drop a few hints, not looking for answers here but hints are always nice. Bill Cobb is good at dropping a hint that will send you off an a tangent to try and figure out for some time....

    Also I'm sure laptime sim are great but at fsae level basic steady-state skid pad works wonders to. Im sure that same thinking can get you pretty far at the pro level too.

    Another thing you don't see discussed here to much is damper analysis. This is another area that is kept very tight lipped in the motorsports community. What we did here this year was write a 7 dof vibrations model and through some inputs and look at FRF (frequency response functions) for roll, pitch, heave and contact patch load. Run a DoE and come up with a new baseline. What do other do for damper analysis? Yea we all know linear/linear dirgressive/linear and .7 bla bla bla. What about other tools used to put a scientific approach on it? I feel like the 7dof and looking at FFT is just the start and there's a lot left in there to look at or try.

    One thing I would be interested in that is semi off topic is what to do with limited tire data or no flat track data. There is an article in this months RCE about that exact thing.

    Scott
    Rutgers SAE

  5. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Brighton, MI
    Posts
    686
    I resemble that remark..
    Most Teams I've interacted with use sim way up front before any metal is cut. Car topologies are delt with parametrically: Jacobian factors are studied to optimize (minimize) interactions and problems with closed loop control. Open loop testing to validate the models is done as time permits and mule vehicles appear. This addresses driver training, too. Teaching a driver to diagnose a car's situations is 1/3 of the testing plan. There are a few who go all out and try to do it in ADAMS using templated models.

    The GM Racing guys were getting a lot out of the full blown version of LapSim. They have produced track maps, tire testing schedules, datbases loaded with K&C data and powertrain maps. Carsim is another tool in use.

    The successful record setting attempt by Corvette at the Nuerburgring was done in sim before it was run on the real car. I have the 'Ring track maps around here somewhere. The run in Germny was just a validation of the sim and Bingo: FTD.

    There is a PhD thesis around which provides some very good insight into the science of computing and driving for laptime, has sims for it, and even the effects of mass distribution, etc. as published results.

    Not sure where I'd post a copy. You can buy it for a few quid.

  6. #6
    I've also been giving simulation a lot more thought lately. Of course, generally this tends to be more like "gee, I bet I could take my 10 DOF vehicle dynamics model, beef it up a bit more, then maybe make some sort of autopilot to drive it around a representative track." However, I have done this enough to know that it ain't that easy. For some reason I always seem to forget you can buy lap sims that at least have that much of the development wrung out by someone who knows a little better what they're doing.

    I know there's no replacement for physical testing, but simulation is better than little/no physical testing (which is where we are now). And physical testing is a lot of work (not to mention expensive), and always comes second to just plain getting the thing reliable and "right" from a seat of the pants first guess. Besides, once you get a simulation set up you can make so many iterations so quickly, at which point physical testing becomes more of validation than experimentation, meaning ideally you would end up doing less of it (and saving $100s on tires). I don't know, that's just where I see it going.

    I am curious to what is being done elsewhere.
    Dr. Adam Witthauer
    Iowa State University 2002-2013 alum

    Mad Scientist, Gonzo Racewerks Unincorporated, Intl.

  7. #7
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Brighton, MI
    Posts
    686
    Here's the Laptime Thesis info:

    "On Minimum Time Vehicle Manoevuring: The Theoretical Optimal Lap:, Casanova, D, PhD Thesis, School of Mechanical Engineering, Cranfield University. November 2000

    ABSTRACT
    This work is a research on the minimum time vehicle manoeuvring problem, with a
    particular application to finding the minimum lap time for a Formula One racing car.
    The proposed method allows to solve the general problem of evaluating the vehicle
    lateral and longitudinal controls which yield the minimum time required to traverse a
    lap of a circuit.
    The minimum time vehicle manoeuvring problem is formulated as one of Optimal
    Control and is solved using mathematical programming methods. Novel techniques are
    employed to solve the resulting non-linear programming problem which allow to
    achieve effective optimisation with satisfactory accuracy, robustness and computational
    efficiency. Particularly, the proposed solution strategy is generally applicable to any
    arbitrarily complex vehicle mathematical model.
    Car and circuit models are set up, and the optimisation program is applied to
    investigate the sensitivity of the vehicle performance with respect to vehicle design
    parameters, such as the yaw moment of inertia, the total mass and the weight
    distribution. Furthermore, the minimum time manoeuvring problem is solved for very
    different vehicle configurations. The optimisation program accurately quantifies the
    vehicle performance in terms of manoeuvre time, and the nature of the optimal solution
    is shown to be always in excellent agreement with the dynamic properties of the vehicle
    model.
    A part of the work is devoted to the development of a strategy to obtain an initial
    estimate of the racing line and of the vehicle lateral and longitudinal controls to be used
    at the start of the optimisation. Two algorithms to compute the racing line using on
    board measured data from the real car are presented. A new mathematical model for the
    vehicle steering control is derived. The model uses multiple preview information of the
    intended path. Its structure derives from linear optimal preview control theory, but it is
    adapted to deal with non-linear vehicle operations arising from the inevitable tyre force
    saturation in vigorous manoeuvring. The excellent path following capability of the
    model is demonstrated by solving various path following tasks involving moderate
    manoeuvring and racing speeds."

    Howzzat?

  8. #8
    A quick search on google scholar turns it up, on a site called Scientific Commons.

    From the Scientific Commons site:
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> ScientificCommons.org is a project of the University of St.Gallen (Switzerland) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    So I presume they have the legal right to distribute it.

    Thank for the tip Bill. This is definatley something I want to pursue (I've just finsihed my own tire modelling programs, so I'm keen to get stuck into some simulation stuff. Finding direction is hard though!).

  9. #9

  10. #10
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by scott_rfr:
    exFSAE I think that is exactly what this post is getting at. Maybe you could drop a few hints, not looking for answers here but hints are always nice. Bill Cobb is good at dropping a hint that will send you off an a tangent to try and figure out for some time.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    It all comes down to what you want to get out of your project. Define your objective, and everything else falls into place. Sometimes "lap sim" software is the answer. Sometimes its not particularly valuable and is a waste of time. Even in racing.

    Are you interested in absolute, or relative measures? If the former.. you're in for a surprise.

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts