Tuning without dyno. !!

[Ignition-Kid]

Anyone did that before ?

I know that you will have no feedback to your modification at all, I am not asking about squeezing every drop of performance out of the engine, I am just wondering, Is it possible ?

[Kirk Feldkamp]

Bingo! Eyes burning is usually past the point where the O2 sensor can read properly (in my experience). Time to remove fuel!

Don't lean out the entire map if there are sections that work well already. Just focus on the areas that are way too rich for now (above 7000 in your case). I've worked with people that get trigger happy with full table adjustments, and it usually causes more confusion than good.

-Kirk

[JamesWolak]

Trying to calibrate without a wideband is like trying to build a chassis without any measuring devices. You can do it but it's going to be wrong.

With a piggyback, standalone, or even a carburetor you should have a wideband.

How are you going to make any fueling changes otherwise?

[BuckeyeEngines]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Wesley:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BuckeyeEngines:
I agree that tuning can be acheived without a wideband, however this would be done by someone with lots of experience. With too much ignition timing it is easy to cause ireperable damage to the engine. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Eh, the PE maxes out at 50 degrees, so you're not going to destroy it. We've run it with the trigger wheel off a tooth, and the worst we've experienced was red-hot headers (retarded,) and on the other side, really low power (advanced)

That engine still runs 3 years later. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not if you make your own trigger wheel to essentially "trick" the PE. We can get 70 Deg. I figured everyone did something like this. Obviously this will be highly dictated by your intake design but usually 55 to 60 deg advance is the most we run, But by putting 50 into the ignition map for PE we get 70.

You are right though, 50 degrees advance should not cause harm especially without raising in clyinder pressure by means of pistons, decking the head, turbo or what have you.

[Ignition-Kid]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kirk Feldkamp:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JamesWolak:
You need to find a way to get a hold of a wide band 02 sensor. You can only make poor guesses without them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

TRUTH!

I got a brand new Innovate LC-1 (with sensor included) for $156 on eBay the other day. They're usually around $200 retail. Think of the opportunity costs involved, Ignition-Kid. Your cost to rebuild or replace the engine is *much* more than the cost of the wideband controller and sensor. More importantly, your calibration is going to be very difficult to do *well* without a wideband O2 sensor, if not impossible. Without the experience or the proper tools, it is *highly* likely you will hurt the engine, not get a good tune at all, or both.

-Kirk </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, You are right, I guess we will go with the LC-1, Appreciate your reply Kirk !

[RollingCamel]

Same goes for piggy-back tuning?

[Pradeep]

We're running a Honda CBR 600RR (2006) on the PE ECU with a 35mm throttle body bore, semi-sequential injection and wasted spark ignition.

We've bought Innovate's LC-1 kit, we've been tuning for a while now. I've read the books on engine tuning by Greg Banish and Dave Walker. However we still haven't been able to get our engine past 7500 rpm.
I think it might be because the ignition timing we are running is too far advanced but when I retard I get a lot of back fire in the exhaust.
There is also have backfire in our intake manifold from time to time and our MAP sensor is malfunctioning currently. However we're using TPS as load and we've selected the "No MAP sensor" option in the sensor setup. Also could the MAP sensor have been affected by the backfire in the intake?

I've posted the fuel and ignition maps here because I really want to know if I'm somewhere in the ballpark. On this map the engine is going up to 7500 rpm even at low throttle percentage (30%) which also makes me wonder if the 35mm throttle bore is too large.

Yesterday my lambda sensor started showing very very lean values even when the engine was running well. I don't have another lambda right now and a new one will take atleast a week to arrive. Do lambdas get spoilt easily? It's been used for only a couple of months although the mixtures were quite rich.



Thanks

[Ignition-Kid]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by kira_vtec:
Yes, it's possible and not hard with a AFR, TPS, MAP and RPM data acquisition. But it's better if you do this on dyno and them some fine tuning on track. Do you have any ignition timimg map for your engine? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have a brand new 2009 Honda cbr600rr engine , A PE stand alone Ecu, And i am planning to use the base map on the PE website to start with, We don't have dynos here in Egypt, We can't afford buying a wide-band O2 senor and a controller at the moment, I just need a stable, moderate engine performance, And i guess from your replies guys that it is a possible thing to do.

[Wesley]

With stock injectors, your pulsewidths look a lot on the large side in the upper ranges.

Verify with absolute certainty that your trigger wheel is on correctly, retarded timing can also compound the effect of a slow-burning rich flame and read lean due to the late and slow burn. Try advancing all your timing by about 15 degrees and lean your map out to peak at about 2.6-2.8ms pulsewidths (@ 52 psi) and see where that gets you. If it runs better, your trigger wheel is probably retarded. (try one at a time)

That ignition map isn't going to get you in trouble, even if you go a bit lean. Ours is much more aggressive than that and we've (accidentally) run at 15:1 AFR for a whole endurance :O

[Pradeep]

Im still waiting for the lambda sensor to arrive.
A new set of problems have started with the engine this week.

1. Oil on spark plugs: While changing the spark plug I noticed a layer of oil on the thread of the spark plug. Plug in cyl #2 had much more oil than others.

2. I've noticed is a stream of gas escaping form the blow-by (PCV). This is happening more during initial cranking.

3. Very rough idle :When the engine starts it idles badly for sometime (like 30 secs ) as if only 2-3 cylinders are firing then suddenly its starts running well.

4. Erratic starting : Since the last 2 days, the engine does not start in one go , after cranking many times (atleast 7-8 times) it starts. After which again it refuses to start (even when starter motor is taking it to 450 rpm).

All these problems make me think that there might be a problem with the piston ring wear. The engine starting problem could be because of insufficient compression and the oil on the spark plugs could also be due to the same reason.

Is my diagnosis correct ?
What other symptoms do I have to look for, to be certain that this is the problem ?

Thanks