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Thread: FSAE Michigan 2013

  1. #111
    Originally posted by Kevin Hayward:
    Bob,

    Thanks for some clarification for those that weren't there, especially for the change in the order of the design event. There have been teams that have done well in design that have done poorly in endurance before, on the basis of a distinct knowledge gap between them and other teams. Every design judge I have spoken to about GFR has spoken highly of the team's process and knowledge, many stating they are leagues ahead of most teams.

    Sorry to hear that your team wasn't able to finish. GFR has owned the comp for the past three years, with some truly impressive engineering and speed.

    It would be great if we could hear a bit more about the event from the people that were there. The coverage over the normal channels (streaming, this forum, twitter, fstotal etc) has been pretty lacking and we have FSAE fans around the world eager to know the inside stories of the successes and failures of the comp.

    Kev
    Rumor around the track was that their starter failed right before they were supposed to go out.

  2. #112
    Just got an email from the collegiate site, results should be posted on students.sae.org today.

  3. #113
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    San Antonio, TX
    Posts
    467
    GFR didn't fail their starter, it was one of the other weak links in the CRF450X starting geartrain. I can personally attest to their upgraded starter being difficult to fail.

    It seems as though brake lights had a low survival rate this year. At least UW-Madison and Illinois were DNF'ed at the driver change for them. Ours was starting to die Friday morning and a courseworker was kind enough to point it out to us. We changed it Friday evening and had no problems.

    Congrats to Akron on an excellent performance and a strong-running first year thumper. A few other teams seemed to have hurt otherwise great single-cylinder cars by diverting resources toward turbocharging. We have this excellent quote from Geoff Pearson printed and hanging in our office:
    When considering turbos and singles in FSAE, the critical dimension is the distance between the exhaust port and the turbo itself. The further the better. For example, when we won Formula Student in the UK, the turbo was in a bin back in Melbourne.
    -----------------------------------
    Matt Birt
    Engine Calibration and Performance Engineer, Enovation Controls
    Former Powertrain Lead, Kettering University CSC/FSAE team
    1st place Fuel Efficiency 2013 FSAE, FSAE West, Formula North
    1st place overall 2014 Clean Snowmobile Challenge

  4. #114
    Matt, excellent work on fuel economy! I was in RIT's pit when they were prepping before endurance. I wont speak for them but there was too much shushing and not enough chuggin when they tried to start. They have a very nice car though. Seems like the Honda 450 is dying out as I think only GFR and Maryland were using it.

    I am looking forward to Formula North next week, should be nice and hot!
    University of Toronto
    '08-'12

  5. #115
    Senior Member
    Join Date
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    Location
    Corvallis, Oregon
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    221
    The short answer is nothing on our car failed, it just failed to start for endurance. The long answer is somewhat more complicated. I will try to stick with the facts as I know them.

    This year at the drivers meeting before endurance we were informed by the endurance captain that external batteries would not be allowed in the endurance queue.

    From the 2013 SAE rules:

    D8.11 Endurance Vehicle Starting/ Restarting
    D8.11.1 The vehicle must be capable of starting / restarting without external assistance at all times once the
    vehicle has begun the heat.

    This rule expressly prohibits the use of external batteries or other forms of external assistance during driver change or in the event of a stall on course. However, like many teams, we have always interpreted this rule to allow an external battery for starting before the endurance heat begins. We have used an external battery to start our car for endurance at every competition since at least 2005, a total of 22 competitions. Our internal battery was sized to start the car on the track and in the driver change.

    We've had some cold start issues with the CRF450X this year, so given this restriction, we warmed up the car to operating temperature before leaving our pit for fuel. We had insulating panels on the radiator openings and a space blanket around the engine to conserve heat. We did fuel fill when called at 1430 and rolled the car to the endurance staging area.

    As most people know by now, U Michigan had an oil leak on their first lap. They were black flagged, and endurance was stopped while the oil was cleaned up. This took about an hour. In the mean time, a cold front was moving in, bringing rain, 25 kph wind and a 10C drop in temperature about the time of the restart of the race.

    We were the last car to go, at around 1700. With a now cold engine we failed to start on the internal battery. We tried for a good amount of time, eventually exhausting the internal battery. We were then told by the endurance officials we could use the external battery if we rolled back to the staging area behind the queue. We did this, started the car on the external battery, and rolled to the endurance start line with the engine running. At this point a discussion took place amongst 3-4 endurance officials, including the event captain. There were apparently mixed opinions about letting us run. They decided we could run only if we restarted in the queue on the internal battery, and we were instructed to shut down the motor and attempt a restart in line. Unfortunately, the internal battery was still discharged from the previous attempts. We could not restart and received a DNF.

    I had a subsequent discussion with SAE. Their position was that the procedural change for endurance starting was reasonable, and that while D8.11 doesn't disallow the use of external assistance before the heat begins, there is also no rule that explicitly allows the use of external assistance before the heat begins.

    We've had driver change restart issues before with our internal battery (FSUK 11, FSG 12, and almost at FSAE-M 12). We increased the capacity of our battery 30% this year in an attempt to overcome this problem. And Mbirt is correct, we are running the larger TRX450 starter on the CRF this year as well. But we're not there yet. Obviously this is an area our engine guys will be working on before FSG and FSA.

    As for me, I gave myself 24 hours to get over this. I have a BajaSAE competition starting on Wednesday.
    Bob Paasch
    Faculty Advisor
    Global Formula Racing team/Oregon State SAE

  6. #116
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Hermosa Beach, CA
    Posts
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    Originally posted by bob.paasch:
    The short answer is nothing on our car failed, it just failed to start for endurance. The long answer is somewhat more complicated. I will try to stick with the facts as I know them.

    This year at the drivers meeting before endurance we were informed by the endurance captain that external batteries would not be allowed in the endurance queue.

    From the 2013 SAE rules:

    D8.11 Endurance Vehicle Starting/ Restarting
    D8.11.1 The vehicle must be capable of starting / restarting without external assistance at all times once the
    vehicle has begun the heat.

    This rule expressly prohibits the use of external batteries or other forms of external assistance during driver change or in the event of a stall on course. However, like many teams, we have always interpreted this rule to allow an external battery for starting before the endurance heat begins. We have used an external battery to start our car for endurance at every competition since at least 2005, a total of 22 competitions. Our internal battery was sized to start the car on the track and in the driver change.

    We've had some cold start issues with the CRF450X this year, so given this restriction, we warmed up the car to operating temperature before leaving our pit for fuel. We had insulating panels on the radiator openings and a space blanket around the engine to conserve heat. We did fuel fill when called at 2:30 and rolled the car to the endurance staging area.

    As most people know by now, U Michigan had an oil leak on their first lap. They were black flagged, and endurance was stopped while the oil was cleaned up. This took about an hour. In the mean time, a cold front was moving in, bringing rain, 15mph wind and a 50deg drop in temperature about the time of the restart of the race.

    We were the last car to go, at around 5:00PM. With a now cold engine we failed to start on the internal battery. We tried for a good amount of time, eventually exhausting the internal battery. We were then told by the endurance officials we could use the external battery if we rolled back to the staging area behind the queue. We did this, started the car on the external battery, and rolled to the endurance start line with the engine running. At this point a discussion took place amongst 3-4 endurance officials, including the event captain. There were apparently mixed opinions about letting us run. They decided we could run only if we restarted in the queue on the internal battery, and we were instructed to shut down the motor and attempt a restart in line. Unfortunately, the internal battery was still discharged from the previous attempts. We could not restart and received a DNF.

    I had a subsequent discussion with SAE. Their position was that the procedural change for endurance starting was reasonable, and that while D8.11 doesn't disallow the use of external assistance before the heat begins, there is also no rule that explicitly allows the use of external assistance before the heat begins.

    We've had driver change restart issues before with our internal battery (FSUK 11, FSG 12, and almost at FSAE-M 12). We increased the capacity of our battery 30% this year in an attempt to overcome this problem. And Mbirt is correct, we are running the larger TRX450 starter on the CRF this year as well. But we're not there yet. Obviously this is an area our engine guys will be working on before FSG and FSA.

    As for me, I gave myself 24 hours to get over this. I have a BajaSAE competition starting on Wednesday.
    Bob,
    I fixed some weird formatting issues in your post here

    Thanks
    --
    University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
    http://illinimotorsports.net

  7. #117
    Originally posted by Sormaz:

    ...In the mean time, a cold front was moving in, bringing rain, 15mph wind and a 50deg drop in temperature about the time of the restart of the race.
    Wow, you guys have some pretty potent cold fronts over there.
    Anyway, thanks for clearing that up, although I was kind of disappointed that you didn't fix Bob's awkward use of '24 hours' into the way more practical 71.4 millifortnights.

  8. #118
    Sormaz: So 10 degC change in temperature is equal to a 50 degF change? I suggest working on your own stuff. "Fixing" other posts isn't going so well.
    Dr. Edward M. Kasprzak
    President: EMK Vehicle Dynamics, LLC
    Associate: Milliken Research Associates, Inc.
    Co-Director: FSAE Tire Test Consortium
    Lecturer: SAE Industrial Lecture Program
    FSAE Design Judge

  9. #119

  10. #120
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Hermosa Beach, CA
    Posts
    104
    Haha that is what I get for shutting my brain off why I try to stir the pot. Relative!=absolute. Oh well

    Not even worth editing at this point...the damage is done
    --
    University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
    http://illinimotorsports.net

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