Building the team

[markocosic]

Hi,

I'm trying to put together a rough idea of how many people, what skills and what resources will be required to 'do' an FSAE entry by doing something like this:

*****
Car
Chassis
The competition rules "hint heavily"� at a steel tube spaceframe chassis. Folded and riveted alloy sheet, bonded alloy honeycombs and CFRP tubs remain an option, but the number of successful teams running spaceframes and the proportion of teams who try something different returning to a steel spaceframe the next year say something.

A ˜tried and tested' solution is appropriate here, especially as we're a first-year team, and aside from having to liaise with other areas about where loading points will be this shouldn't stretch beyond what is taught as part of the engineering degree.

A project for a pair of civil/structural/mechanical engineers. FEA skills useful. CAD and fabrication skills over and above those a typical student has may be required.

Steel tube, tube cutting/bending/welding equipment and material to manufacture a chassis jig will be needed.
Suspension
Hubs/wheels
Tyres
Brakes
Steering
Engine
Transmission
Electronic systems
Bodywork/cosmetics

Data acquisition
Vehicle modelling and simulation

Test drivers (abel to make useful comments on setup)

Support hardware (trailers, jigs, tools etc)

Support

Marketing
Advertising/publicity
Fundraising
Public relations
Sponsor relations
Recruitment

Project planning
Project management
Budget planning
Budget management
Admin duties
Financial accounting
Risk assessment/health and safety/insurance

Photography
Filming
Graphic design
Team apparel
Press releases, newsletters
Website

FSAE rules compliance
FSAE cost report
FSAE presentation materials
*****

Am I going about this the right way?

Are any of the established teams willing to offer any pointers? (headings I've missed, those I need to pay particualr attention to, a few voice of experience words to go under each)

How do you guys work out roughly who and what you needed in the beginning? (or perhaps 'did you'...)

[markocosic]

Hi,

I'm trying to put together a rough idea of how many people, what skills and what resources will be required to 'do' an FSAE entry by doing something like this:

*****
Car
Chassis
The competition rules "hint heavily"� at a steel tube spaceframe chassis. Folded and riveted alloy sheet, bonded alloy honeycombs and CFRP tubs remain an option, but the number of successful teams running spaceframes and the proportion of teams who try something different returning to a steel spaceframe the next year say something.

A ˜tried and tested' solution is appropriate here, especially as we're a first-year team, and aside from having to liaise with other areas about where loading points will be this shouldn't stretch beyond what is taught as part of the engineering degree.

A project for a pair of civil/structural/mechanical engineers. FEA skills useful. CAD and fabrication skills over and above those a typical student has may be required.

Steel tube, tube cutting/bending/welding equipment and material to manufacture a chassis jig will be needed.
Suspension
Hubs/wheels
Tyres
Brakes
Steering
Engine
Transmission
Electronic systems
Bodywork/cosmetics

Data acquisition
Vehicle modelling and simulation

Test drivers (abel to make useful comments on setup)

Support hardware (trailers, jigs, tools etc)

Support

Marketing
Advertising/publicity
Fundraising
Public relations
Sponsor relations
Recruitment

Project planning
Project management
Budget planning
Budget management
Admin duties
Financial accounting
Risk assessment/health and safety/insurance

Photography
Filming
Graphic design
Team apparel
Press releases, newsletters
Website

FSAE rules compliance
FSAE cost report
FSAE presentation materials
*****

Am I going about this the right way?

Are any of the established teams willing to offer any pointers? (headings I've missed, those I need to pay particualr attention to, a few voice of experience words to go under each)

How do you guys work out roughly who and what you needed in the beginning? (or perhaps 'did you'...)

[GTmule]

That's all stuff that needs to be done.

Our team had, quite literally, about 5 active members, and we got a car finished for competition that was not started, for all intents and purposes, until Mid January. We did horribly at competition, but I'm making the point that a team can be anywhere from 5, to 100 people, and you can justify each case.

You definately have your ducks in a row. My only suggestion would be to recruit some marketing/accounting/business type majors for that type of stuff, as whichever engineer you put in charge of those things will be mad.

-Chuck

[Michael Jones]

Nice start - a few comments:

1) I like the breakdown you did with the frame manpower requirements - the more you do this for the other teams, the better.
2) I wouldn't commit to large design decisions at this point though (e.g., spaceframe vs. monocoque). Let the people involved in design make that conclusion. (Although I'm inclined to agree with your conclusion...)
3) Many of these tasks will overlap with each other, but it's good to list each and every possible thing that might come up and keep that list current so you don't forget anything and to ensure someone's charged with it.
4) Using the frame example: the design folk are the point people and project managers for the project, but it's a project that can (and really must) involve a lot of people. Same with many other tasks. Whomever you appoint coordinates and may do a lot of the work but should be encouraged to get help, especially on huge manpower tasks.
5) There's a few things you'll want to add - e.g., fuel, intake/exhaust systems, cooling, ergonomics, etc.
6) There's no "right" organization - we've changed our structure around over the years based on team member interest and past experiences. Be flexible with titles. But I'd advise making the team as flat an organization as possible - too much hierarchy or order is often too much.
7) Leadership is essential, and good leadership should be focused on planning and coordination (technical or administrative). Leaders should not get too involved with particular technical projects if possible - they should coordinate, advise, mentor, vs. doing everything themselves.

All I can think of for now, but if you have any questions, feel free to drop a line.

[Kyle Jeffries]

That is a real good start. The more quality people you have, the less likely you are to go insane by May.

Do not forget to find machinists and welders...They're hard to come by for us, so when we find a good one, we like to keep them happy.

Also, in terms of goals, I think the first should be to complete the car and make it to competition. The second should be to get the car done as early as possible. We were a first year team last year and the majority of our issues came from not getting it done early. We were glad to have made it, but are a bit disappointed because we know how much better we could have done.

[CMURacing - Prometheus]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Michael Jones:
But I'd advise making the team as flat an organization as possible - too much hierarchy or order is often too much.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

i'd wager that too much hierarchy is ALWAYS too much...

[GTmule]

"i'd wager that too much hierarchy is ALWAYS too much..."

In much the same sense that too many cookies is almost certainly too many cookies.

[markocosic]

Thanks guys (and those who replied offline) - appreciated.
LOL@CMU and GTmule! and too much...

I've put a M$ Word and M$ Word HTML version of the revised 'car' list below - feedback?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">My only suggestion would be to recruit some marketing/accounting/business type majors for that type of stuff, as whichever engineer you put in charge of those things will be mad </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The 'non-car' 'non-engineer' list is as big as the 'car' or 'engineering' list now, and that's probably not a bad thing. Would rather not post the new/filled-out version as it'll give out too many clues as to our quirks and who we'd be approaching. Not so good when it comes to sanity-checking it though!

Michael:
1) The more try think into them the less I'm sure of these... Do they look sensible? Haven't really got a clue on the electronics front either (blacksmith here!) - anybody care to comment?
2) Agreed and revised - any better? We will be setting some things in stone for the first year team though (steel spaceframe, naturally asthmatic, no 4WS etc - any others sensible?) even if they're perhaps not 'optimal' as far as the car goes.
3) Overlap is causing grief, so have split into 'early', 'late' and 'other'. Am looking for somebody "who isn't afraid of spiders" to do the interconnets...
4) Ok
5) "Done" - but are there others?
6) Proposing 3 layers - a small core of managers on the same level as the supporting academic; a layer of design group/support group bosses and deputies; a layer of everybody else. Layers 2/3 are one and the same, layer 1 tries to to get too involved as per (7)?

Word Doc

M$ Word "HTML"

[Mechanicaldan]

For a first year team, I would argue that your main objective is to stay on schedule with whatever you plan. Set dates and stick to them.

Too many Formula teams get in over their head right from the beginning and want things like traction control, and electronic shifting, and carbon fiber everything. You need to get everyone to agree to keep designs and material useage simple and easy to manufacture.

If you want to be a successful first year team, you need to keep it simple and complete it.

Our very basic goals were always to have the chassis welded by Thanksgiving, have the engine running with the intake and exhaust by Jan 1., and have a driveable car by Spring Break.

If you are like most teams, the hardest part is coming up with the money to buy parts to stay on the timeline. The next most difficult portion is manufacturing.

With experience comes an appreciation of how much TIME it takes to get an engine that was bought off E-bay, running on a fabricated intake manifold, exhaust system, and spliced together wiring harness and fuel system. It takes even more time to get the fuel map tuned properly on a dyno.

[Z]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by markocosic:
I've put a M$ Word and M$ Word HTML version of the revised 'car' list below - feedback?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Marko,

Just a brief comment (I've got a 30 ton excavator ripping up my backyard, with an 18 year old operator! - I want to keep an eye on him).

The last entry in your car list is "Vehicle Modelling and Conceptual Design". I think this should be first and foremost. The direction you set out at the beginning of your journey has the greatest influence on where you end up, and how hard and how long it takes to get there.

The standard approach is to assume that the "standard" car is the correct direction, then dive into detail design, "optimising" the standard components, and perhaps adding some extra gimmicks "to impress the Design judges". As I've noted elsewhere I reckon there is an easier shortcut.

Z