Reverse Trike Project

[ArakLea]

I built this thing in the early 80's. I wonder have any of you seen it in the basement etc? Or was it tossed?

http://www.theoscarproject.org/./components/com_joomlaboard/uploaded/images/wwuEV08_Small-7fd2beb4105801ab84923bd87da37b0b.JPG

http://www.theoscarproject.org/./components/com_joomlaboard/uploaded/images/wwuEV10.JPG

I'm an old timer from back then. I had the nick-name Three-Wheel-Mark ;-)

[ArakLea]

Remove this post please. IT's obviously in the wrong place. Sorry about that!

[RiNaZ]

I can move it for you ... but where do you want me to move it to? This seems to be at the right spot, i think.

[James Waltman]

I saw this and thought - 'That sure looks like a WWU kind of project'.

Then I was pretty sure I knew that building. That's the Enviro Sci building in the background. There's a new building now where your trike was sitting.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure I remember that thing sitting under the canopy behind the shop when I was there. It's been a couple of years now since I was there and I know they're on a big clean-up push right now.
I'll see if I can get one of the current students to update.

(This thread is a little off topic but I don't see a reason to move it.)

[drivetrainUW-Platt]

What a beast!
UWW's first attemt at an "out of the box" fsae car?

[Chase N]

Hey it is in the back lot right now on the chopping block for being tossed give the VRI a call and ask to speak with me if you are interested in saving/reclaiming it. 360-378-3045 or call me directly on my cell 360-378-7542

[ArakLea]

Ouch, yes I'ld like to find a way to get it. I'm wondering what parts are still left. The AAarms are particularly hard to replace. The front hubs were special,and... well most of it was special in my view duh!

One thing I can promise is to use it to promote the Detalidon Project (www.Detalidon.com) which may acquire a cash flow in the near future. Which I can in-turn pledge some to back to support FSAE/WWU.

I will try to call..I'm at
4 8 0 - 9 8 5 - 3 7 5 4

[ArakLea]

out-of-the-box fsae car

In about 1980, one of the students built a little 4 wheel vehicle called affectionately "The Monster". It was a rear drive, straight axle, aluminum bath-tub with a Honda 750 4stroke in back. Single driver, very nearly like an over sized go cart. The engine weighed as much as the cart.

Dr Seal should remember that one. The builder also made a People-Eater. A bicycle turned upside down, so the seat was 3ft up higher, with a huge jaw in front, attached to an offset lobe on the front wheel. It would appear to try and eat people when ridden in Red Square, Looked real sweet when you also sported a pink mohawk! yea, THAT guy!

[ArakLea]

Well good news for everyone who likes this kind of thing. My brother will be aquiring 'Taddy' for us on monday. We plan to restore it and will use it for promotion of a newer version. We may also complete this one for the street.

I have learned a lot over time about this class of vehicle, and it will be improved. FYI don't go rear wheel drive and don't use such a tall top wing if you plan on a 'treetop headlight'. Also don't use a long tail, even if it makes areodynamic sense. A few points off the gas meter ain't worth your life!

The wing will be cut lower with LED lamps, and two 3kw motors will drive the front. These may become scooter hub motors. A rear motor could be added if needed. (Yes, unsprung weight WILL be a problem if I use hubs.)

A genset in the back will make it a defacto hybrid. A few batteries and controllers and we'r good to go!

The genset could be of a rotary type when available in two years. (found as one of the Xprize contestants, these are used on that VTOL air-car you've heard about)

Oh yes, lest I forget, it will get a body or at least a windshield and nose fairing.

Here is a possible temporary look for it, just to get it on the street asap. How 'bout it? Want to race one of these? It would be a very 'techical' race for sure.

OK, not exactly art. But it will pass inspection (I hope).

http://www.theoscarproject.org/./components/com_joomlaboard/uploaded/images/NEWwwuEV10_Small.JPG

Here is the original design. (wind tunnel model, .20CD)

http://www.theoscarproject.org/./components/com_joomlaboard/uploaded/images/arak4.jpg

http://www.theoscarproject.org/./components/com_joomlaboard/uploaded/images/arak5.jpg

[drivetrainUW-Platt]

Is this thing battery powered, sounds like a hoped up golf kart with one hell of a body kit!

[ArakLea]

Yes very perceptive of you. I think in the past you could catogorize smaller street-able vehicles as:

Covered GoCart
Cabin Scooter
Golf Cart (urban tranport)
Commuter Class
Sub-Compact

This one cuts accross those concepts by making a "Commuter Class/Cabin scooter" which is Freeway Ready. Although 15+HP require in most states is a little more than it actually needs.

[ArakLea]

OK, this is the vehicle after 25 years of storage and experiments.

Not too bad considering everything.

http://www.theoscarproject.org/./components/com_joomlaboard/uploaded/images/IMG_1875_Small.JPG

Here is it's most likely destination as a Mock-up or demo for presentations uses.
Later it will be restored to gleaming road worthiness.

http://www.theoscarproject.org/./components/com_joomlaboard/uploaded/images/Photo_082807_001a_Small.JPG

The eventual plan calls for two front 3kw scooter hub motors, and a light weight, 5-10kw, high efficency, GenSet (motor genrator) based on a compound rotary engine.

The hub motors will be a little heavy on the unsprung weight, but HEY this is science (or Fun?) Anyone want to start a new class of racing?

[RiNaZ]

Ever tried a sketchup.google.com ? It's a 3D program that's free for everybody to use. Not too hard to figure out compare to most engineering CAD program.

Just thought i'd introduce you to something other than pen and paper (not that it's a lesser tools).

[ArakLea]

I have Soldiworks on the way. It's just that I have only paper and pen or pencil with me sometimes, and I can experiment with those suddle curves. If I do that, I photo it into digital then ouch it up in paintbrush, like the one above.

It only takes me a few minutes to paper one into existance. If I like it, it becomes worthy of deeper work.

DID I ever say I was a CAD/CAM analyst at Boeing for 6 years? OK I didn't draft, I consulted to those who did.

Still, free is free, so I downloaded it. Thanks I'll try it.

[ArakLea]

As suggested above, I've been working with 3d graphics (Sketchup6) to confirm some of my styling issues. Here's a sample;

http://www.theoscarproject.org/./components/com_joomlaboard/uploaded/images/TaddyTwins2.JPG

[ArakLea]

Definately thinking of marketing this as a motorcycle. But I can go one better than motorcycle. I would also intend for it to be a kit-car.

I met up with a kit-car manufacturor (Veepster) and added much to my knowledge in that area.

I have a lot of options for my first body. I may make tooling for it and hand-lay up fiberglass.

I could use the RQRiley method and sand-down on urathane then glass it. But I have a new method possible.

I could try a paper mashe on wire frame then composit it up with styrofoam and non-toxic glues. Then it is finshed with epoxy and glass cloth.

One of those maybe.

Interior
http://www.theoscarproject.org/./components/com_joomlaboard/uploaded/images/TaddyDriversInteriorView.JPG

Back view
http://www.theoscarproject.org/./components/com_joomlaboard/uploaded/images/TaddyWheelsView2.JPG

front view
http://www.theoscarproject.org/./components/com_joomlaboard/uploaded/images/TaddyWheelsView3.JPG

[Igor]

Nice design, that looks like fun to drive.

If you want to make this a road legal version though, you'll have to move the lights. The rules differ for various parts of the world, but in general most lights can not be farther than 400mm of the widest part of your vehicle when viewed from the front or back.
I don't know what you get away with in the US though on a kit car.

Igor

[ArakLea]

In the us the center of the light must be 24in (61cm) to 64in (152cm) from the ground and clearly visible to the front. On my vehicle this lower limit would have placed it in the drivers face. So I went to the high side.

If I could go 18"~20" then I can have the lamp in a recess at the top of the nose next to the windshield. But that would crimp the drivers access to the foot controls.

There is of course the possiblity of putting one headlight on each side of the front on thier own little wisker-pole winlets. (as you can see above it was done once before.)

[ArakLea]

I'm adding this sketch as a starting point for those interested in the Taddy design.

This image is slightly improved for rear visiblity and longer wheel base. I'll be doing some more work on the design.

I'll let everyone know where they are posted when completed, sometime this year. (couple of months.)
http://www.theoscarproject.org/./components/com_joomlaboard/uploaded/images/TaddyTires1.jpg

Part of what you see here should be removeable behind the headrest, so you can access the genset etc.

[ArakLea]

I wanted to study styling as it applies to race vehicles. I thought this toy looked similar to a hypathetical SAE 3 wheeler, if such a thing could ever exist. Hey! I like Sci-Fi thinking!

http://www.theoscarproject.org/./components/com_joomlaboard/uploaded/images/zzzz4.JPG

[Erick Scarpone]

Hey ArakLea first of all great job man! Its looking nice! Maybe I miss it in the past threads but I wanted to make you a question regarding what you are oing and I think your answer could be helpfull for sales event in FSAE.

Are you doing this car for fun personal car, or do you see this as an entrepenour business? I hope you see it as a business for this to make FSAE sense, if you do, what parameters tell you you can make a profit by re designing this car and producing it in small queantities, do you have a market for it, competitive price, fun to drive, looking to start a new racing series? is it a viable business model could you tell us a little about this if this is the case, if not if its just having fun with it, enjoy it looks like a very nice project!

I have seen a really nice FSAE car type around there some pictueres I think is called the ASTRO project or something similar and I belive they do sell it, it would be great to get them to talk a little about there business project.

Salu2!

[ArakLea]

Well, that is an excelent question.

Originally I approched the concept from a purely problem solving exercize in the early 80's. We had a gas problem then as well.

I had thought, looking at all the commuters of the day, what would a truely efficient INDIVIDUAL commuter vehicle be like?

At that time, it boiled down to Taddy. Not too surpisingly, it was along the thinking of many people.

Yet,I have learned some things since then.

I continue to pursue it on the basis that IF a utility purpose (or percieved benefit) can be well done, some number of people would love to acquire the solution. Even pay for it in someway. And in this ever bigger world, niche products have an ever wider ability to find these people. (using the web?)

But at that point the concept escapes the purely engineering world out into the business and marketing world.

Admittedly, I have opened the idea online, because I haven't the capital to do more. I did this because I wanted the solution available for others if I couldn't access it myself.

Everyone benefits from getting more utility from our energy. If you buy/use one, potentially, I personnaly benefit, Win-Win.

Frankly, the history of consumer automotive development (in the USA) mostly skipped this type of vehicle.('cept for maybe the Sparrow) Up to now, we really didn't need something so very optimized for the (all weather) commuter. (not badly enough at least)

So it has very little positive history to support a marketing projection. But this is a new era, and we need solutions. Today, 3 wheelers have become interesting again. I feel I agree but only if they provide a solution at a good price.

I believe the leverage-able idea is to be able to easilly afford a second commuter vehicle for work AND play. The scooter and motorcycle have traditionally filled that gap. (mostly limited to fair weather travel.)

Since the Taddy class (type 3 CabinScooter) is comparable to a motorcycle, that is where a marketing analsys can focus for hard proof of concept.

Basically a vehicle under 10k-USD or less with some sporting value, has a fair market opportunity. But there is also a market in the Do-it-yourself, street sport and racing arenas.

Kit cars have the potential to produce both a market history and grass-roots popularity with very little capital investment. It does require individuals to complete and licence each thier own.

So, preferably I would initally enter into the kit market, producing plans, specialty parts and website traffic. That is what www.detalitdon.com (http://www.detalitdon.com) will be used for, sometime soon.

To be honest, I'ld like to acquire donations and a list of viable supporters. The supporters would in turn become happy recipients of completed vehicles, which they commit to use to promote the cause. The goal would be to provide a car to each family in the world willing to donate any amount.

At the point of viable profits from outside sales, donation intake would need to be limited so as to honestly service those who supported the early development.

Orinally, the early VW bug was that kind of a promotion, but then pre WWII governments promised many things to many people. The volkswagon did result however, and today you can easily research the rest of THAT story.

[ArakLea]

One more shot without the funky front bumber...
..compared to a design I did a few years ago(projects gallery on 3wheelers.com)...

http://www.theoscarproject.org/./components/com_joomlaboard/uploaded/images/Photo_111907_001.jpg

http://www.theoscarproject.org/./components/com_joomlaboard/uploaded/images/arak_EVInRed-dd89337e5af3f6c477604fd8252854e3.jpg

I think I may try a putting a deep-v winglet back on. Something a little nicer than the bumper-thingy.

[ArakLea]

This is an interseting crosspost on kit car marketing from CabinScooters.groups.yahoo.com

-That's quite correct; for example, the Superformance kits, which are
complete, totally finished vehicles minus engine and transmission,
have a very high completion rate, since a builder with average skills
and the proper tools can finish them and be driving in under 20 hours.
They also cost well over $40,000, about twice the price of the average
Cobra kit. Other kit manufacturers have begun to offer "engine minus"
kits, also at premium prices. It's a wise business practice that
results in a high percentage of very high quality finished vehicles.
With very few exceptions, kit cars generally end up costing more, not
less, than a manufactured vehicle. The exceptions are those built by
unusually talented people with superior skills, such as metalworking,
fiberglassing, engine rebuilding, etc., or those lucky enough to buy a
partially-built kit for a small fraction of its original cost from a
(often disillusioned) failed builder.
A Cabin Scooter kit could be made by the same manufacturer that
produces production models, after the costs of manufacturing have been
amortized by selling completed vehicles. The number of kits sold would
be a very small fraction of the total production, and likely not worth
the effort.-- William L.

[Biggy72]

http://editorial.autos.msn.com/article.aspx?cp-document...375&topart=passenger (http://editorial.autos.msn.com/article.aspx?cp-documentid=444375&topart=passenger)

Looks like you could just buy your project if this car actually is ever made.

[ArakLea]

(BTW-Your current entry looks really sweet! I dig FSAE!)

Oh, I love the Aptera, but there are two substancial differences to my designs.

I want a single seat or inline seating at least.
And I want under 10k retail. The Aptera sells at 30k for the foreseable future.

As another example, for years, the Corbin Sparrow (single seat) sold well over 15k up, moving up to 27k and never suffers (so far) from depreciation if kept in good shape.

It is revamped to electric and selling over 30k.

Oh one more item, it weighs in at 1500lbs in EV form. Mine,well 600lbs in EV form

[ArakLea]

I do not believe there is any chance that an FSAE vehicle could be beat by one of these for the same horse power on a circuit track.

But I think it is fun to imagine such a racing class. It would take more driving skill, or different skills than a FSAE. Unless you switched to FWD, then all bets are off.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjE4x0T6Ioc&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLj0SQrYJqk
http://www.trirodmotorcycles.com/

http://www.theoscarproject.org/./components/com_joomlaboard/uploaded/images/Wester_Rev_Trike.JPG

Personally I'ld rather sit down in it, for safety like FSAE or forward like in CAFE cycle racers (with a swivel seat for turns).

[ArakLea]

Well considering all that you shouldn't do with your life, here is an interesting way to go nuts on the trike subject.
http://www.maxworks.de/assets/images/Monster-1a.jpg http://www.maxworks.de/assets/images/Monster-2a.jpg
http://www.maxworks.de/assets/images/Monster-3a.jpg http://www.maxworks.de/assets/images/Monster-4a.jpg
http://www.maxworks.de/assets/images/Monster-5a.jpg http://www.maxworks.de/assets/images/Monster-6a.jpg
http://www.maxworks.de/assets/images/Monster-7a.jpg http://www.maxworks.de/assets/images/Monster-9a.jpg

If you want to live a few days longer, consider this as a front wheel drive proposal.

I think I'm obligated to fill in a little advice. On a 2F1R-RWD, do not go less than 50% weight on the rear. The images you see break that even worse than the post prior.

If you want excessive power; FWD or AWD is advised in the 2F1R layout.

Note also, that if you apply 65% weight up front and 50%/50% power to f/r you can achive power activiated oversteer. Similar to other racing vehicles. With so much complexity to get positive effect at high power, Small wonder that 4wheelers are the dominant form.

[Fyhr]

There is a quite nicely built swedish reverse trike aswell, or rather there was, road legal in both trike and car "setup" http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif .

It looked like this:
http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/4949/109new20061116olympus69ck5.jpg

It has since then been converted to a car with a chain/differential setup quite like an FSAE car.

Website can be found here: http://www.home.mride.se/

Build threads from a forum, in swedish but with some great pictures:

The trike build: http://rejsa.nu/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4971&postdays=0&p...hlight=mride&start=0 (http://rejsa.nu/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4971&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=mride&start=0)
The car conversion: http://rejsa.nu/forum/viewtopic.php?t=33711&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
Here's a video from an AutoX
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gs6AE28WNV0

[Peter7307]

Anyone remember the Morgan 3 wheeled vehicle?
Normally called "TriMogs" two wheels at the front and one at the rear , single and sometimes dual side by side seating and the spare wheel at the rear.
Power was normally a V twin four stroke of about 1 , 000 CC with the crankshaft centreline along the vehicle centreline. Think Moto Guzzi not Harley- Davidson.

One point for all prospective designers:
Put parking / running lights out where the wheels (both ends) are so other vehicles know where yours ends lest you be mistaken for a motorcycle in the heat of the moment.

Also some means of luggage or shopping bag carrying is essential if you design is to be taken seriously as a viable alternative.

There are enough "fun cars" (eg: Arial Atom) out there as it is.

Pete.

[ArakLea]

>There are enough "fun cars" .. out there as it is.

Actually, there have always been enough. Because it is a want and not a need.

But the thirst is insatiable. There is always room for more. If only just to gaze and dream.

We remain as always, children, by one measure or another.

[ArakLea]

Speaking of more work and less play,, in support of high mileage commuting like Taddy represents, I now have the Advocacy website running.

For anyone curious Detalidon Formula (http://www.detalidon.com/)

[ArakLea]

I've recently done some 3d Modeling, thought I would post some of that for you to see. http://www.theoscarproject.org/./components/com_joomlaboard/uploaded/images/SnapOfWing.JPG

There are several of these images in this one style. http://www.theoscarproject.org/./components/com_joomlaboard/uploaded/images/BigManInChassis_Top.JPG

Side view of the v1.02 chassis, no body. http://www.theoscarproject.org/./components/com_joomlaboard/uploaded/images/BigManInChassis.JPG

Little bit of a clip to show the relationship of everything. Kind of like sitting in a large canoe http://www.theoscarproject.org/./components/com_joomlaboard/uploaded/images/CutAway.JPG

OK so this is kind of a Jimmy-Dean 50's Retro style. http://www.theoscarproject.org/./components/com_joomlaboard/uploaded/images/SnapCutaway1.JPG

Still tying to deside what to do for the grill. It's doesn't really require one, being electric. But I need some air flow to the motors so I'll try this cut..
http://www.theoscarproject.org/./components/com_joomlaboard/uploaded/images/SnapClipNose.JPG

Final cut for this style. Many faces are possible, I just slapped a simple one on it.

I'm not sure I like it the best, but that will do for now. http://www.theoscarproject.org/./components/com_joomlaboard/uploaded/images/SnapMeanLines5a.JPG

[ArakLea]

For an option to fit my DF chassis, I figured I would try a image of a body style with flat wrap sheet in either aluminum or coroplast.
This form would be do-able in those materials.

It's open top to qualify as a motorcycle in some states.
http://www.theoscarproject.org/./components/com_joomlaboard/uploaded/images/FlatWrapCoroplast_Trim.JPG

[Composites Guy]

A local welder/machinist that has helped our FSAE team out for years has just completed his Steath Tryke prototye car.

You can see more at www.lehighvalleychoppers.com (http://www.lehighvalleychoppers.com) or on a quick video on youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoOMC3HWuFY

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n114/lehigh_jack/StealthTryke.jpg

[ArakLea]

Yes, nicely brutal machine. A pedestrian would not want to contact that nose at any speed, so hopefully it is for the track only. But it looks impressive at least.

However, I'm always sensitive to the rear power issue.

You will notice that on the movie they burn a lot of rubber. It is often exhibited to be impressive, but it really masks the problem that it is much too easy to burn rubber.

There is always a trade off between rear traction and rollover when a reverse trike is powered only in back. It would require a high level of power control to win and stay safe.

I would love to be the only FWD 2F1R in a hord of racing 2F1R's. Even add some 1F2R. All other things equal, if there are any turns at all, you should beat them hands down.

Of course that boast has yet to be proven.

[Composites Guy]

I believe that the attraction for trykes, at least in Pennsylavania is that they are much less regulated than 4 wheel cars. In PA they are classed by the DMV as a motorcycle, even if you are producing them and selling them. That means no crash testing, catalytic converters, windshields, defrostors and a host of other things required to be on a 4 wheel vehicle.

The stealth tryke above (with some modification yet to be done, such as wheel farings) is intended as a street vehicle.

[ArakLea]

Originally posted by Composites Guy:
I believe that the attraction for trykes, at least in Pennsylavania is that they are much less regulated...
True for every where. There is a very slight advantage for the single seat and less so for tandem in the weight. Which is very much negated by other issues as your payload gets bigger. But yes rules are a primary.

..classed by the DMV as a motorcycle.
Most places with a few other considerations thown in.

..even if... you are producing them and selling them. That means no crash testing, windshields, defrostors and a host of other things required to be on a 4 wheel vehicle.
Yes! Life is good.

catalytic converters
I prefer EV for obviouos reasons.

The stealth tryke above (with some modification yet to be done, such as wheel farings) is intended as a street vehicle.
Well, OK I should embrace it then....eek...I would like to save a little mileage too.

[JOE TOTE]

For those of you who have checked out the STEALTH TRYKE, It was a project done out of passion. The number one thing I have tried to convey is, LOOK WHAT MY COMPANY brings to the table. As far as what it looks like etc.it is what I wanted from the start. It can be anything! (IF you can dream it, I can build it.) Again, as far as the nose comment earlier, well, 10 flat heads and two push pins are all that is keeping it on. The NOSE can be anything you'd like. Such as a stubby SAE nose with crash protection ETC. USE your imagination! THE ENGINEERING ON THIS VEHICLE is done. The next project is on the board. The only thing that changes from what I want to build, is somebody paying me for what they want me to build. There are reasons for everything I do on a build. But,until you ask you will never know.

[ArakLea]

Well I don't want to leave any other impression than to say it is a very strong statement about abuility.

It's a nice piece of hardware. There are always oppinions about adjustments etc on this forum.

It is definately impressive.

[ArakLea]

Just though I'l post the latest design ramblings. I always think it's good to have visual refences to look at

http://www.theoscarproject.org/./components/com_joomlaboard/uploaded/images/P51Style_TopLeft_500.JPG

http://www.theoscarproject.org/./components/com_joomlaboard/uploaded/images/P51Style_Profile_500.JPG

[Composites Guy]

That's starting to look quite like an Aptera... looks pretty neat though!

http://www.aptera.com/images/home4.jpg

[ArakLea]

Yes very right you are! The Aptera is quite impressive too. I like it's looks, not everyone does.

But there is one significant, well two significant differences. I want a single driver car. I want FWD. Better cornering would be nice.

The EV form of the Aptera claims 300MPG 'equivelency', going up as the price of oil goes up.

In single driver form, whatever mileage they get, I can get better.

Still if I had the money(lots of it), I'ld love to buy one, simply to narrow it up into a single driver form just to see what it would do.

Thanks for the pic. I hope they win the AXP.

[James Waltman]

Originally posted by ArakLea:
Yes very right you are! The Aptera is quite impressive too.
...Better cornering would be nice....


The next generation of Aptera Suspension should be better.
The (re)-designer is ex-FSAE (and a frequent contributor to this forum).

[ArakLea]

Oh Man! Cool!, not just cool.. Superb! Cudo's to him! It's realy nice to know that!

When I was just out of school, I would have put a torch in my butt and ran around naked to get a job like that! (only sort of kidding!)

I think they will likely go with 4wheels rather than lowering the CG. I prefer lower cg, just because I want to see a 3wheeler 'make it'.

This year I think they have the funding to make a DOT approved 4 wheeler. Funny how $4.50/g fuel can do that.

[ArakLea]

I had this note posted on a Cabinscooters discussion. Anyone at WWU know about it?

>I was driving in Fairhaven around 5:30 today (Wednesday July 16th), just
south of Bellingham, WA and saw this great green 2F1R scooter -- looked like
great aerodynamics, fully enclosed and definite motorcycle rear end.

[ArakLea]

http://www.theoscarproject.org/./components/com_joomlaboard/uploaded/images/Cafeh14.jpg

Very interesting 3 wheeler..

http://www.theoscarproject.org/./components/com_joomlaboard/uploaded/images/Cafeh6_500px.JPG

[DART-CG]

We once worked together with those guys to manufacture our wishbones for our first car. Not quite a reversed trike but near to it

http://www.street-ray.de/images/home-3.jpg

http://www.street-ray.de/images/home-8.jpg

http://www.street-ray.de/images/home-1.jpg

[ArakLea]

Dart racing? This is yours? I didn't relize there were two rear wheels, from the other images I saw of your vehicle. Now RWD makes a little more sense to me. Or is it?

I like seeing your design. I have posted your images in discussions elsewhere. What is the total weight, and is this a trackracing-only product?

BTW... for those who care, I have a 3d sketchup wireframe uploaded that is a close approximation to the Taddy that started this thread.

It's here http://sketchup.google.com/3dw...feddd51e&prevstart=0 (http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/details?mid=cc7da9443a43367abae3d599feddd51e&prevstart=0)

[DART-CG]

Originally posted by ArakLea:
Dart racing? This is yours? I didn't relize there were two rear wheels, from the other images I saw of your vehicle. Now RWD makes a little more sense to me. Or is it?

I like seeing your design. I have posted your images in discussions elsewhere. What is the total weight, and is this a trackracing-only product?


Nonono, little missunderstanding. It's not our design http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif It's called the Street Ray, manufactured by Preuss and styled by Colani. We only worked together with them two years ago in manufacturing our chromolly wishbones. This one is RWD and strett legal, look for it at:

http://www.street-ray.de/

It weighs 350kg, has a tubular steel frame and has a 1-cylinder Aprilia engine with 40hp.

[jdstuff]

Hey ArakLea,

A buddy of mine is currently working on a 3-wheeler commuter design also, and is starting construction in his home shop. You can check out his concept here, the Tern Commuter. (http://terncommuter.com/index.php)

I am slowly getting roped into the project, and will most likely be doing a lot of the suspension design. Drop me a line sometime (email is in my profile)....I'd love to hear some of your idea and challenges that you've had to overcome.

Cheers,

[ArakLea]

Ah yes, I have seen the Tern and website, and of course I like it. It is what I would want out of an Aptera.

The biggest issues with that class of vehicle (SOV or SOCV, Single Occupant Commuter Vehicle)are similar to the politics and practicalities of all alternative vehicles. The technologies have always been well understood by the technolgists in that narrow part of the field.

But, It's a hard fit in normal society. More than anything because the category is not well represented on the road or in public laws.

It's kind of a chicken and egg problem. How to get a very good example out there that addresses the applicable problems.

I'll definately work with you on this. I actually triied to contact 'Tern' via that website. So for detailed work on the -Tern- we'll go off line.

In public forums it seems there are very few places or people who want to get very detailed about that kind of vehicle as a viable consumer product.

I pushed very hard in some circles, impressed a few experts but pissed off many more by standers. I've backed off the OSCar project for example. But I did make an influance.

The AXP is a good example. A 150MPG vehicle is very easy in the SOV class. In case of point beating the MPG of the 1 litter VW at 317MPG theroetically is relatively easy. But the AXP considers 100MPG a great accomplishment. Which is to say they are solidly focused on the 4 occupant layout.

Stictly speaking occupants are an all round genaral transport, as opposed to a dedicated/optimised commuter vehicle like a SOV should be. I pushed there at the AXP and did get some support and abuse. But definately nothing serious to encourage me.

My own primary limit is no prototype in hand to leverage. I still can't get my own to be accessible to me this year. VERY frustraiting.

What I think few people realise is that a Optimized Commuter must cost low enough to justify the purchase on the basis of fuel and operational savings, since it is best thought of as a second or third vehicle in the family.

Fortunately that is what a minimal SOV should do even better than gas savings, be cheep to produce. UNfortunantely all current alternative vendors seem hell bent on high purchase price models.

So the only way to produce a low cost turn-key vehicle is to invest enough to produce at a higher output. But again lack of proof showing interest and success is a chicken and egg barrier.

Still I did calculate out such a vehicle would return 23million in value for 5 million invested based on an 18 month plan. I do not have the marketing costs built into that however.

But I think I see ways around the chicken/egg limitation at least enough to break through.

Hopefully, We'll talk about that soon.

[Hector]

We have a local guy who bought an old monocoque from us a few years ago with the intention of building a trike. He's attaching the full rear of a bike (from the engine to the wheel) to the front of our shell. He didn't buy the shell with any suspension/brakes/controls (literally just the shell). When he hits a wall in his design, he'll stop by our shop and poke around at our car a bit to get ideas.

He's mostly doing it in his spare time as a sort of weekend project. His plans are to eventually get it DOT legal and use it as a daily commuter - on sunny days, at least. Frankly, I'd be a little worried about running an 10+ year old monocoque made by a bunch of university students while sitting 3 inches off the ground, but I guess when you've got the itch you'll do whatever it takes to satisfy it.

Anyhoo, looks like an interesting project there, ArakLea. If I happen to pass one on the road in a few years, I'll be able to say that I saw it go from early conception to product. Best of luck with it.

[ArakLea]

Well, you never know what can happen. The Avion guys built thier concept car partly at the VRI(WWU) in the early 80's. It went almost no where for 25 years. But now, BANG! it's entered in the AXP competition, complete with new investors.

[ArakLea]

Wow, it's weird that a whole year has gone by since the last post to this thread. Since then a small number of single occupant prototype have been appearing on the web. All 4 wheelers. The Xprise contest is coming to a conclusion soon. And VW is productizing thier 1Liter VW as a 250MPG two seater (for $45k or so)

Just like my concepts, not much of that maters too much for the rest of us ( unless you like dreaming ) until something cost effective is put on the market.

Although I found I can also do quite a bit of useful research with out something physical. Which I have through design art work and using feed back commentary on various discussion forums. From that some open source designs are now in the Google 3d warehouse, and in youtube.(see links below)

None of that has inspired any products in my category that I know of. So I'm moving toward a development, I have recently began cooperating more with Tern Commuter (see posts above) to produce a OSCS platform based on the MustangII front end.

And from the CabinScooter group there are now V1,2,3 platform designs in thier library and in the 3d warehouse (use links).

Tern has finshed a design and offers it as a product. (I recieved a PDF catalog) My part is to mock-up a body style to fit and produce some tooling from it. I'm leaning toward the -Atlantric- style, hopefully finishing it by sometime this year.

http://sketchup.google.com/3dw...&ct=mdcc&prevstart=0 (http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/cldetails?mid=c8fe4f32b7f232cac3845a76042e278f&ct=mdcc&prevstart=0)
http://sketchup.google.com/3dw...&ct=mdcc&prevstart=0 (http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/cldetails?mid=7f7e900d9220eec3dc9fbd1550a72796&ct=mdcc&prevstart=0)

http://sketchup.google.com/3dw...d599feddd51e&ct=mdsa (http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/details?mid=86a161a7c483f6bdbae3d599feddd51e&ct=mdsa)
http://sketchup.google.com/3dw...042e278f&prevstart=0 (http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/details?mid=bb6aa811fdc422fc3845a76042e278f&prevstart=0)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...4IS0&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9xmXoX4IS0&feature=related)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nWseDO8mzE

[fixitmattman]

Already made?

http://spyder.brp.com/en-CA/Se...howroom/Discover.htm (http://spyder.brp.com/en-CA/See/Can-Am/Showroom/Discover.htm)

[ArakLea]

Hi again. There has again been a sustancial amount of time since the last post. But I like to help with your couriosity and dreaming skills..lol

Hopefully these images will give you and idea of how things are developing in my area of interest.

This design has undergone some flow similations, and I expect a final cd under .2. Without wheels it's produced a .15cd. But hey! whoo runs without wheels?
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u308/SRX660/Cabin%20Scooters/Atlantric-Matrix-Gemini.jpg http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u308/SRX660/Cabin%20Scooters/ducted4.jpg http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u308/SRX660/Cabin%20Scooters/hawkertilted1.jpg http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u308/SRX660/Cabin%20Scooters/hawkertilted2.jpg http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u308/SRX660/Cabin%20Scooters/hawkertilted3.jpg http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u308/SRX660/Cabin%20Scooters/hawkertilted4.jpg

[ArakLea]

Every year or so I like to keep you up to date, IF anything is happening. Well, things are pretty active in the reverse trike arena. Since this thread started, at least two products were introduced, the TRex and the BRD Spider.
I am also working on the dream, as a real project and started a facebook page. But given my funding (none) I'll be posting here for years to come. ( once each year? lol ) But hey! everyone needs to dream. And someof us need to take SOME action, even if it's in very small increments.
Here are a few images links for facebook. ( they don't seem to post here) Enjoy! http://www.facebook.com/photo....07653&type=1&theater (http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=135190876583759&set=pu.121285271307653&type=1&theater)
http://www.facebook.com/photo....07653&type=1&theater (http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=135187573250756&set=a.135186913250822.17190.121285271307653&type=1&theater)
http://www.facebook.com/photo....07653&type=1&theater (http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=135185276584319&set=a.135185249917655.17189.121285271307653&type=1&theater)

[Z]

ArakLea,

Your February 2011 pictures above remind me of the 1946 Mathis VL333 (http://www.carstyling.ru/en/entry/Mathis_VL_333_1946/images/795/).

I guess you already know of this car, but for those who don't, here are some specs;

Mathis = German manufacturer, but this car intended to be built in France, immediately post WW-II (prototype made in 1945?).
"333" = 3 wheels (2F1R), 3 seats, and less than 3 litres/100km.
Engine = at front, 707cc flat-twin, 15hp at 3,300rpm.
Gearbox = 4 speeds, driving front wheels.
Length = 3.4m.
Width = 1.74m.
Wheelbase = 2.3m.
Weight = 460kg.
Cd = 0.22 (claimed).
Body shape by Jean Andreau.

Maybe one day?????

(Edit: Thought I'd add that this is a heavy duty trike. High ground clearance, big wheels, relatively big engine, and 460kg indicates that this was a real family car. However, the "colourful past" of the German maker meant there was zero chance of it getting approved by the post-war French officials.)

Z

[rjwoods77]

If it has three wheels and not a Dymaxion then you are kidding yourself. I'd love to see some hoon drift one of these.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...O9d8&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fO80IjrO9d8&feature=related)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dymaxion_car

[ArakLea]

>Mathis

Yes, definately a looker. I never did find a rear or top view of it until this winter. It turns out to taper very quickly to the rear point. That's sometimes called a 'bluff' form and so at freeway speeds it may deveolop erratic/distrubed airflows.

I collected car images for years and did a number of 'morphic' studies on them, the Mathis was one. I basically stretched it out as an inline seater rather than a sociable seating.

I don't really believe in sociable seating for three wheelers, it kind of negates the point of it IMHO.

>drifting

lol, yes you would want to have the CG very very low if you choose to do that in a RT. I wouldn't try it in a 1F2R, but somebody would I'm sure.

You kind of touched on a sore point, of course. Trikes are not as strong a platform as 4 wheelers for any typical circuit racing.

So that would not be the point of racing them, IMHO. The point would be to improve the breed in a rules limited formula. i.e. the best 3 wheeler you can make, matched to the skills required.

Of course my favorite is FWD Tadpole configuration, and I don't believe FWD is best for drifting either since you can't easily control oversteering though throttle manipulation.

So I personally wouldn't do that kind of trick-driving in one. There are other desireable things to pay attention to, things maybe even useful for closed circuit track and top speed racing. :-)

[ArakLea]

Oh, now that you mention it, the top on my Atlantric design is very much like the messerschmitt, but it's removeable. That means I can provide an optional top more suitible to racing, and I intent to do so. 'cause why not? I'ld really really like to see a peripheral ported rotary in one too for track racing, 'cause why not?

[ArakLea]

If anyone gets interested in the current state of the project, there is now a facebook page. Atlantric Project (http://www.facebook/araklea)
In put about the design for either racing or street use is welcome. One innovation discussed is an Indy-Cycle type front suspension. This is where the front wheels are locked together through the same shock system. This is even a stronger 'empathy' for left-right coupling than a beam-axle front end. And has a comparably stronger anti-sway dynamic. Of course the obvious trade-offs exist. But being a three wheeler it's considered a less dramatic loss compared to a 4 wheeler. Those trade offs being more acceptible on the track than for occupant comfort. . .