Formula Student 2005 Competition: Updates, Pictures, Stories, and More [Archive]

markocosic

07-10-2005, 02:54 PM

Toronto win overall with the other Canadians and Oxford Brookes (the only other real contenders towards the end) dropping out of the endurance - a well deserved win!

At one point it looked like Brookes were going to take the title with being a full 26 seconds (I'm told) ahead of Toronto on the endurance just before driver change. The two cars were probably very evenly matched, but Brookes were out later on (when the track was hotter/covered in a lot more rubber).

<Comments on Brookes removed having spoken to Craig directly - he assures me that they were only meant in jest>

QUB and Waterloo were the quickest teams around the endurance track, posting 50.something times and having VERY neat laps. Unfortunately the Irish had a firewall short out on their battery isolator switch and Waterloo had a failure to restart when hot.

Brookes were on 52.somethings

Toronto, Helsinki, Hertfordshire etc were in the 53/54s. Looked like they were having fun (helsinki's 2nd driver especially!) with the tail out all over the shop but it wasn't as quick as others.

The enduro was TIGHT, but grip levels appeared high towards the end of the day with 27C ambient air temps and masses of rubber being laid down on the track - TUFast reported record lateral G readings.

For what its worth - lots of acceleration runs under 4.25 seconds, several under 4.1 seconds and a stonking *3.97* second run by Bath won them the event. (supercharged 600)

Car 31 - TUFast (which did well on skidpad) was going very nicely on the enduro track until it lost a wheel/unglued a bonded wishbone. Lots of overheated cars on the endurance. Lots of electrical problems.

No singles appeared competitive in ANY of the dynamic events - not way off the pace, but not enough to be top 5 it seems. To a newibe the courses looked so tight that steady-state didn't really exist - more blats between hairpins.

Marshals were out all day and must have been dropping towards the end - but still no excuse for missing lots of what should have been blue-flags and in some instances stepping out in front of cars/forcing them into spins trying to avoid them. (the guy on the entry to the pit area was especially guilty of this and owes his ankles to Dartmouth's driver)

Update:

Photos, Sounds, Videos from the event:
http://web.mit.edu/cosic/www/FSAE-UK-2005/

markocosic

07-10-2005, 03:10 PM

http://people.pwf.cam.ac.uk/mac65/misc/formula%20student/

Update: I've posted the whole set at the link in the post above above now, so will be removing the photos on the link above in a few months.

As I was leaving it appeared some teams were being allowed a RE-RUN in endurance. There were an awful lot of UK teams in there and I hope its not just an effort to get more UK teams in the 'finished endurance' category. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Certainly didn't seem right.

<edited>
Loughborough appeared to stop, wait, then drive a fully functioning car back into the pits and demand a restart after the Germans lots a wheel in front of them. They did stop and they did drive a fully functioning car back into the pits/appeal to the judges but its an unrelated event that happened to co-incide as Deano describes later.
</edited>

A lot of drivers completely ignored the driver's briefing (sprint event was a "rolling-start" this year, AKA a standing start but from the pitlane) and so a couple of perfectly good cars were way down the field when the driver waltzed out the pitlane and in some cases STOPPED on the startline before taking the hint from the marshal that the timing had already started/it was a rolling start. All the Canadians got the idea and came tanking down the pitlane, flicked it round the hairpin at the end and were already doing 40mph over the starline where others were doing 5... "Sneaky" on the part of the organisers or a very effective way of making sure people pay more attention in driver briefing...?

Lots of teams didn't get into the sprint event on time and som were awarded DNFs. This appeared to work nicely, as all the ropey cars out there that would otherwise be holding up the proceedings/spewing fluids and parts all over the circuit did not get to compete/hold up everybody else. A lesson learned the hard way though!

RacingManiac

07-10-2005, 03:23 PM

Wow this is awesome news....maybe I should just give up going to England for FS if we were to go back.....I went last year and we came home 2nd, while 03 and 05 both were winning years....

kenny boon

07-10-2005, 04:39 PM

The reason brookes failed the enduro was a failure in the rear blead nipple. I wasn't the only problem for us on the weekend, having had a circlip failure on a drive shaft which allowed it to fall out of the tripode during the skid pan.
As for thew barrier tape, several teams seemed that they couldn't be bothered to open the back of they're own pit and would use ours as a short cut out. This became very annoying when trying to work on the car, had you wanted to look at the car you only had to ask, as many teams did.
Also, did anyone manage to 'aquire' an imeche blimp?

vinHonda

07-10-2005, 05:09 PM

Congrats to my ex team!!!!!!!!

I must admit, I thought Waterloo would take it after finishing 4th at FSAE....but my ex-team mate and enduro partner in crime Jerry Z. showed FSAE-dom that he is the quickest guy in a 20mm restricted student built car!!!

Way to keep Toronto's record in the UK at alternating 1st and 2nd places every year since 2002!!!

MOre photos please anybody else?

Denny Trimble

07-10-2005, 07:35 PM

Originally posted by vinHonda:
...my ex-team mate and enduro partner in crime Jerry Z. showed FSAE-dom that he is the quickest guy in a 20mm restricted student built car!!!

Congrats to U of T on another win in England. But, I have to ask, where was this Jerry Z in Detroit?

RacingManiac

07-10-2005, 07:53 PM

he ran a 57s lap in autocross but nudged 2 cones.....

I must say our setup in Detoit was not perfect, too loose in autocross and too tight in Enduro(compensating for autocross and the track went slower)....

jerktaculus

07-10-2005, 09:11 PM

OH LORDY LORDY isn't that U of T car somethin special!! My congratulations to all my former team mates - sucks replying as the tech director that didn't bring home the gold (wedged betweeen two golds) last year but I can say (from my first hand spectatorship) that this win was no fluke! They have been testing this car everyday for months now - and from what I hear '06 is in design. Y'all got a crazy strong Toronto team coming up underneath the graduating members of the current one so don't expect a break. i.e. get started the second you get home. Get those cars finishing endurance dammit - forget the glitter - build a car that works first.

Congratulations to the whole team, their sponsors and faculty support - sooooo very proud.

JerK.

Igor

07-11-2005, 12:12 AM

Ok, just got back from the UK. The competition was excellent, the number of quality cars has definitely increased over the previous years. I especially enjoyed watching the Waterloo car fly over the circuit, but there were plenty of other good drivers there.

The Delft car didn't perform as expected in my opinion due to a lack of testing time and the wrong tire compound. Apparently LeCont stopped producing their softest compound which is critical if you have such a light car. Now the car was sliding and wheelspinning all over the place.

Denny: The lexan plates had to be mounted because the scrutineers feared the shocks would explode http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif I can't imagine that has ever happened to an FSAE car.
It is getting ridiculous, I bet next year they'll have them mount fenders as tires can also explode.......
As I'm not part of the team and not too knowledgeable about suspension I can't comment on the performance of the shocks.

Well, back to playing with bigger cars again,
Igor

ben

07-11-2005, 04:39 AM

Four comps as a student, first comp as a design judge.

Great weather, better track surface and lots of interesting cars. I'll restrict my comments to design event related matters.

1. 3Hz ride frequencies and standard mountain bike damers is not a good way to 'increase transient response'. Sensible roll stiffness and good low speed damping would be better
2. If asked the value of a vehicle parameter in a design event "didn't you read our spec sheet?" is the wrong answer. I hope further elaboration isn't required as to why.
3. The word optimise implies you have used an objective metric and have the numbers. If you don't, don't use the word. We read lots of design reports, I was keeping a tally, one UK team won by a long way...
4.ETS were awesome and did well in design because they did exactly what they had been asked to do by the judges last year.
5. Would Delft be better off adding a few Kgs and actually finishing? Flame away on that one.

Ben

Owain

07-11-2005, 05:03 AM

Well said Kenny! As a team leader, I'd like to take this opportunity to thank all the boys on behalf of me and Jon for such an excellent job for Oxford Brookes University, something to be proud of. This is the best team that we've both worked with and the best that Brookes has had and its been an extremely emotional year and weekend. The car only had bodywork on it 2 weeks ago so if that's all you can do in terms of results i.e. the 2 British teams that were in the top 10 well you've got a lot to answer for. We finished 15th without finishing the enduro with a failure that was not down to any designed parts of our own and that says something.

As for not doing any favours for ourselves in terms of closing our pit area, Brookes has been helping teams all weekend for example Delhi and lent tools all the time. Sounds like whoever you are from Cambridge - Mark, your a bit jealous!

The OBU team for 2005, thank you please

Students

Jon Nicholls
Owain Davies
Matt Beasley
Joe Hartog
Max Lotto
Ian Cooke
Fran Wilson
Richard Messenger
Luke Thompson
Sanje Valvill
Craig Dawson
Kiran Devlukia
Nathan Skinner
James Jiggy Gornall
Luke Green
Tony Upright

Lecturers

Howard Ash
James Balkwill
Nick Bowler
Geoff Goddard

The reason brookes failed the enduro was a failure in the rear blead nipple. I wasn't the only problem for us on the weekend, having had a circlip failure on a drive shaft which allowed it to fall out of the tripode during the skid pan.
As for thew barrier tape, several teams seemed that they couldn't be bothered to open the back of they're own pit and would use ours as a short cut out. This became very annoying when trying to work on the car, had you wanted to look at the car you only had to ask, as many teams did.
Also, did anyone manage to 'aquire' an imeche blimp?[/QUOTE]

Mad Ruska

07-11-2005, 05:05 AM

Stralsund was driven 52,5s with a broken rear anti roll bar after 4 laps and drove nearly only on 3 tires th whole endurence. TU Graz had problems with tires. Brunswick cv joint fail, but either the wasnÂ´t as fast as last year. Luleas engine blow up after turbo failed. Fastest cars was waterloo.

Leeds car lost fuel in acceleration and behind leeds the track was burning, but nothing happends to the drivers.

Track marshalls wasnÂ´t good. I saw nearly 5 crahses because the missed showing yellow flags.

on of the best enginered cars for me was Munich. 197 KG, 4 Cylinder engine, own made diff, 86 HP and great sound and they drove under 5 sec in all skid pad runs. never seen such a fast skid pad driving.

ben

07-11-2005, 05:24 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Owain:
Well said Kenny! As a team leader, I'd like to take this opportunity to thank all the boys on behalf of me and Jon for such an excellent job for Oxford Brookes University, something to be proud of. This is the best team that we've both worked with and the best that Brookes has had and its been an extremely emotional year and weekend. The car only had bodywork on it 2 weeks ago so if that's all you can do in terms of results i.e. the 2 British teams that were in the top 10 well you've got a lot to answer for. We finished 15th without finishing the enduro with a failure that was not down to any designed parts of our own and that says something.QUOTE]

Great post Owain.

Marko: Brookes have done a lot of comps and done well relative to other British teams, you've done nothing nor has your University so try and be a little fairer. An appreciation of just how little sleep most of the teams will have got last week and how difficult building one of these cars actually is might be needed on your part. Also if Howard Ash et al don't collectively win a faculty advisor award in the next couple of years I'll be surprised.

Having said that, Brookes' driver does race a lot and is leading a UK club championship if I heard correctly. As a result he talks like a racing driver rather than an FSAE student and this can come across poorly to some.

Ben

vinHonda

07-11-2005, 05:45 AM

Ok, Will Chan in that waterloo car was pretty fast I keep hearing....

How was the circuit? Similar to last year's? (and every year before that?)

Igor

07-11-2005, 06:05 AM

I heard a driver say the autocross track was somewhat faster than in the previous years. Probably in an effort to make the various competitions more similar.
Off course the main shape stays pretty much the same as it has to follow the kart track.

Ben: the Delft cars usually suffer much more from a lack of testing than from a lack of weight. The failures at competition have never been weight related, except for 2000 when the car was too heavy for its suspension :-)

Igor

ben

07-11-2005, 06:36 AM

Totally agree on the lack of testing. Also the driver looked very tentative so driver training might be an issue.

My point was, do you think the design and manufacturing phase ends up being too long to allow this testing because of the level of analysis required to hone a car to such a low mass? If not, fine but I think the question's worth asking.

Ben

GrandSteering

07-11-2005, 07:52 AM

Is it just me or has anyone else added up the event scores to gain a total points score??

I seem to think the ImechE have their sums wrong... Anyone else agree??

Also can anyone confirm if there is a rule enforcing a testing ban at the circuit of the competition a week before the event??

jjusb

07-11-2005, 07:57 AM

Does anybody have the complete results? Or at leats the overall standings?

Deano

07-11-2005, 08:24 AM

Hi All,

Just to clarify what happened to us...

Marko suggested the Loughborough car stopped when Munich had a mechanical failure in front of us and subsequently we proceeded to drive back to the pits to demand a restart. This is absolutely not the case.

We only lost a few seconds due to the yellow flags, but otherwise Munich's problems didn't affect our race at all. In a completely unrelated incident a couple of corners after passing them, the engine just died (we're not sure why yet). Tom was able to get it restarted without outside assistance but the Clark of the Course deemed that it had taken too long to do this (it took about 2 minutes after stopping I think). We were instructed to drive back to the pits (via the grass and then across the infield) where it was confirmed we would not be allowed to continue.

We couldn't find a rule that says how long you have to restart the car (assuming it's done without outside assistance) so we tried appealing, but to no avail. It seems there's an unwritten rule that says you have to restart within a lap (i.e. approx 55 secs on the FS circuit). I guess it would be worthwhile including this in the rules, just so everybody is clear - the marshals on the circuit certainly had no idea what was going on!

So basically the car was/is fine except in that period of 2 minutes where it wouldn't fire up. We had just started lapping in the 53s so it was looking good...

Overall though it was a great event with some exceptional cars and teams. The Graz car/team combination was the most outstanding for me although in terms of achieving the perfect FSAE car, ETS must be the closest yet...

Also, it's been suggested that many of the UK teams were allowed to rerun the endurance event. I know that an extra session was added for reruns, but it's my understanding that these were demonstration runs only - no points awarded. I seem to recall their being a fair representation of nationalities in the group.

On the subject of nationalities...There was clearly a great deal of dissatisfaction in the awards ceremony with the concept of UK-only prizes. I would personally agree that it's not suitable to have any distinction between nationalities when it comes to the awards. I appreciate that from a sponsorship point of view, it adds a category that would appeal to a UK company, such as the RAC, however I think the sporting concept is wrong and this ultimately should be the deciding factor. A UK-only award can only serve to alienate the overseas teams, who, travel at great expense to an old airfield in the middle of Leicestershire every year and without whom the event would be considerably less exciting and interesting. It also puts the UK teams in the unfair position of having to collect an award which has been jeered at during the announcement (although the UK teams themselves were given a generous round of applause when actually collecting the award). I hope the IMechE will reconsider this before overseas teams decide to go elsewhere...

Dean
LU Motorsport

Matt Gignac

07-11-2005, 08:31 AM

I don't think there's a rule that gives a max amount of time to re-start the engine.

In fact, I recall Wollongong in the 2004 Detroit comp taking a few minutes by the side of the track to get going again, but once it fired again they were off.

In my opinion, if you're willing to hang out for a few minutes and take the time penalty that goes along with it, you should be allowed to go.

But what about that rule that says you need to lap within 133% of the quickest time? I thought this only applied if you're consistently slow.

Matt Gignac
McGill Racing Team

Wilso

07-11-2005, 08:49 AM

During the driver's meeting for endurance at Detroit 2005, it was stated that time allowed to restart the car would be based on average lap time, i.e. if you were lapped while stopped it was over.
Was anything like this mentioned at the FStudent meetings?

Deano

07-11-2005, 10:06 AM

Originally posted by Wilso:
During the driver's meeting for endurance at Detroit 2005, it was stated that time allowed to restart the car would be based on average lap time, i.e. if you were lapped while stopped it was over.
Was anything like this mentioned at the FStudent meetings?

I don't recall anything being mentioned in the briefing. I dare say it will be added to the rules for next year...

Ultimately though we can't really complain - the car stopped and that's our problem. We're guessing it was a setting on the ECU whereby the fuelling was cut at a certain air temp reading - we'd never run in such hot conditions so were unaware of this setting...We'll have to arrange some test sessions in the south of France next year!

Oh well - just 361 days until FS 2006!

Dean
LU Motorsport

rjwoods77

07-11-2005, 10:34 AM

What kind of supercharger was that team using with the cbr?

Igor

07-11-2005, 12:08 PM

Ben:
A valid question indeed and not one with a clear answer. The Delft team has chosen a design philisophy since the 2003 car which is based on minimum weight. This results directly in an enormous amount of components you have to manufacture yourself instead of buying off the shelf. Especially the carbon rims have caused quite a delay in the program due to sealing issues this year. The team is rather big though, over 50 I think, so in theory there should be enough manpower to manufacture the car. Unfortunately it seems a team gets exponentially harder to manage as it grows that big, and thus the chance of keeping deadlines grows dimmer and dimmer.
So is it worth it? The cars at competition keep breaking down, so it looks like a general bad idea. On the other hand there is a lot of promise. In 2004 the car was ready on time as the team aimed for the Aachen shootout a month before the competition. Subsequently that car was properly tested and was living up to its promise at the competition. With only the endurance left to run the team was actually in first place. A faulty contact eventually ended the endurance prematurely, but in fairness I don't think they would have been faster than RMIT. A top three finish would have been possible though and it has proven the "light car concept" to at least ourselves.

In the end it comes down to how you think you can gain an edge over the other teams and win this competition. Building a "standard" car makes it very hard to win the competition as there are a lot of teams that have their act pretty well together.

So I think Delft will try again next year with the same concept and hopefully a stricter planning. At least I will encourage them to keep trying the hard road.

Hmm, this post has gotten a little long winded, sorry about that http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Igor
Delft alum

RiNaZ

07-11-2005, 12:50 PM

does anybody here have ETS pictures? did they bring the same car from FSAE 04? Love to see how their telemetry works.

RacingManiac

07-11-2005, 02:10 PM

ETS's 04 car was at 04 F-Student, and it won Design as well if I recalled correctly, as well as various other awards from National Instrument, Honda, and I believe the Composite award from McLaren.....

markocosic

07-11-2005, 03:28 PM

2. If asked the value of a vehicle parameter in a design event "didn't you read our spec sheet?" is the wrong answer.

LOL

Originally posted by ben:
Marko: Brookes have done a lot of comps and done well relative to other British teams, you've done nothing nor has your University so try and be a little fairer.

I've indeed done nothing, but you don't have to have done everything under the sun to make an observation. If the barrier was there to prevent the pits being a thoroughfare I can accept that.

Thing is the barrier was there even when the guys weren't working on the car. It was there even when they were in briefings/weren't in the pits. Even if not intentional the message it sent was "you're not welcome in here".

Didn't stop me having a goodly look around the car (a well made affair by all accounts) whilst the team were in briefings etc but did put me off speaking to you guys when you were there.

Look at it from an outsider's point of view and perhaps you can see why you gave the impression you did?

If this is not a "fair" observation then we'll have to agree to disagree on what's fair or not. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Also if Howard Ash et al don't collectively win a faculty advisor award in the next couple of years I'll be surprised.

Chatted to two of the faculty in the class 2/3 tents - not sure which two (guy in the chair and another) but they both seemed top blokes. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Having said that, Brookes' driver does race a lot and is leading a UK club championship if I heard correctly. As a result he talks like a racing driver rather than an FSAE student and this can come across poorly to some.

<edited>
Comments removed after speaking to Craig - but those in the first post still stand.
</edited>

Deano - understood. From pit side grandstand it looked like you guys just stopped then drove a perfectly functional car (the fact it was running perfectly when it entered the pits didn't help!) back to the pits once the germans were off the track; I couldn't stay to the very end and chat/comiserate with you guys hence the 'it appears' - didn't mean to mislead or cause offence and have changed post to suit! Agree about the "UK" awards. Its not only discouraging overseas entries, but its also insulting to the UK teams that the organisers deem it neccessary to award 'special prizes' to a country 'who wouldn't get any otherwise' as it were. Lose them, or temporarily suspend them until such a time as you can offer an award for the best team from each and every country?

Rob - supercharger was a geared turbo compressor side jobbie.

Mad Ruska - agreed, that car had potential and sounded gorgeous with the "twin 2:1" exhausts (1&2, 3&4)

Tyres - was very noticeable how little wear there was on the LeConts on Delft's car and the Avons/Goodyears on others for that matter. Hoosiers on the cars that finished endurance were looking "most definitely broken in" by comparason.

BrunoC

07-11-2005, 04:56 PM

I was a totaly new car that was brought to Formula Student. The formula 04 rest in our university hall. And yes we won the most desirable engineering product from honda, also best use of composite and pi research award and the design.
http://us.share.geocities.com/brunoc1234/f2005e2004.jpg
from left to right f2005 and f2004

kenny boon

07-11-2005, 05:00 PM

Marko, you seem that you have missed one of the main points of formula student, to have fun. If you thought craig was rubbing salt into belfasts wounds then you were wrong. If you wondered around the pits you would have seen alot of jesting occuring and much banter between the teams, and it was all harmless fun. As for the 'sure of themselves' attitude, show me a racing driver who isn't confident in their abilities.
I would also like to say congratulations to hertfordshire university on their top uk ranking (only 2 places above brookes i may add!!) and also thank them for causing much ammusement throughout the paddock with thier MI5 agent impressions over the weekend.

BrunoC

07-11-2005, 06:12 PM

http://us.share.geocities.com/brunoc1234/f2005e2004.jpg
Here is a pic from our unveiling ceremony.

Jim400

07-11-2005, 07:20 PM

Thanks for the MI5 comments throughout the weekend, we did have fun there. We were really happy with our performance thought the weekend, the months hard testing and at least 14 hour days for a month really helped improve the car. We achieved better times on the day than in testing for acceleration (4.12 4th) and Skidpad (5.083 5th) but had a poor sprint. The drivers were happy with the car and the setup was unchanged for the endurance and proved right on the test track later that day, one of those motersport things. We were also 5th in the endurance which was really impressive and only 62 seconds behind the winners after deductions. Most of you would have missed our endurance because we were second on track in the morning because of our sprint time, this cause a lot of traffic and overtaking losing us important time, the marshalling wasn't great then either. Their was also a lot less rubber on track and the temperature was a lot cooler at 21 rather than the 32 when Toronto went out but we still managed to have the second fastest lap in the morning, during testing we had loads of heat in the tires and huge chunks of used rubber was being flung off the car which was not happening in the enduro. Overall it may have been a god send running with cooler temps for the car cos we may have not finished later in the day.

I have to agree with the comments about our rivals Brooks, they seemed very unprofessional all weekend and I heard of bad comments from people in the trade who were unimpressed when they talked to them. So I must return some comments now it is all over to their team regarding some of their comments, First that 5 Brake extra engine map you did on Friday really didn't help you in the acceleration because we beat you and you came no where near your claimed testing 3.8 second run. From the comments of us copying your car this year, I saw your faculty adviser in our workshop at least twice in the year because of his commitments with the marking board, from talking at length with him on many occasions thought the weekend I think he would have nothing to do with something like that but this is motersport you can't trust anyone. Also we did clean our car a lot because we are so proud of it and for you reporting you spend the time preparing and working on your car instead, well we had no problem with bolts or parts coming loose because of lack of preparation and all of this from a solid team of 9.

With that said I would like to send my commiseration to the Birmingham team, they were the nicest people I met all weekend, they pulled us around to the back of their car, talked at length on the intricate parts of their car and were unluckily to break a new chain in the enduro. Their car was solid on track and preformed very well, for me I don't know how we beat you into the design finals.

I'd also like to send congratulations to Sussex team for getting a car to the competition, it was their first year of the event and with a limited budget and 5 people they did a great job. As they admitted it was a slightly over engineered but with a finish that made some established teams look like amateurs. They were unlucky to retire from the enduro with a bought in fuel component failing. Well done lads.

About the Best British prize that we won, I also agree it is a bit strange for an international competition but it has been in place since the beginning of the competition and it has taken 8 years before any complains. I also think the SAE / Imeche are trying to dumb down the competition by splitting the event into smaller events around the world, with a event in Italy and Germany coming up and now two events in America the standard of the competition will lower with teams only racing teams from the same country and a few traveling teams. It may work thought because I would put money on a world finals event being held in coming years. The reason must be to lower the team count in each event creating easier to organize events. In my opinion we have a very competitive event in England now and teams from Europe would do well in America and Australia because the standards of cars over here are improving faster than the Americans at least.

So my thanks to all the teams for making a great competition and special thanks to the Delft team for organising the design final photo shoot even thought our lecture took charge and moved everyone around, something our team will never forget being classed with so many great cars and teams.

James Waters
Chassis Designer, Suspension, Packaging and Race Engineer
University of Hertforshire Car 20

B Lewis @ PE Engine Management

07-11-2005, 07:57 PM

Congrats to University of Toronto for another excellent showing at Formula Student from all of the guys at Performance Electronics.

Big Bird

07-12-2005, 12:06 AM

Congratulations to the crew from Toronto on an excellent effort. Well deserved I'm sure, and it couldn't happen to a nicer crew. Each year they show up with a slick team and a good, honest car that is well tested and reliable. That's all. How long is it going to take before their competitors truly wake up to this??

I won't bother buying into the boasting that is appearing elsewhere in this thread. What I will say is that during our short visit last year we met many teams capable of displaying outstanding sportsmanship and humility - a few names include Toronto, Delft, Loughborough (cheers Deano!), Brunel, Birmingham, and pretty well all the crazy Germans and Austrians. These and many others were capable of competing without unnecessary chest-beating, and certainly without their drivers feeling they needed to play one-upmanship with their competitors, whether it be in "good humour" or not.

We are in an enviable position where our universities and sponsors are paying for us to play race teams for a year, with the luxury of little retribution if we don't get it right. The majority of competitors are appreciative of this, and respectful of others who are willing to jump in and give it a go. Let's hope I've misunderstood the nuances of a few of the preceding posts and that some of us aren't getting a little too precious http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Cheers all,

markocosic

07-12-2005, 12:38 AM

ETS is the first one up - some cockpit/pealbox photos, unpright/suspension photos, the engine/diff/backend, a couple on the track and several of their display board:

http://people.pwf.cam.ac.uk/mac65/misc/formula%20student/Photos/ETS/

Update:

All photos are now here:
http://web.mit.edu/cosic/www/FSAE-UK-2005/
The old link will work for a few months more then die - if you're using the photos update your links now. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Alastair Clarke

07-12-2005, 02:08 AM

Well done to Toronto for their overall win, and to Hertfordshire for coming top UK position. We're absolutely over the moon with 8th overall, and 2nd UK team, and can't quite believe it!!!

We'd like to thank a number of other teams for helping us out over the weekend. Firstly, the German team who came to our rescue with a spare banjo bolt when we managed to shear ours off on the outlet from our fuel tank! Thanks guys - I can't remember the team name, but they were looking for a differential most of the weekend.

Also, thanks to Oxford Brooks, for lending us an engine expert to confirm some of our thoughts on the engine problems we had on Saturday. That saved us a great deal of time. Cheers.

Finally, I'd like to thank the rest of our team for just being absolutely brilliant fun over the course of the last year, and building a great car as well. Also, our Faculty Advisor, Karen, and the rest of the academic and technical staff who helped us out, especially Carl and Dave.

Thanks to all the teams at FS this year - especially the team from TU Graz for their entertaining singing at the campsite!!!!

Cheers

Alastair
Very Happy Team Leader
Cardiff Racing

Rob.C

07-12-2005, 03:02 AM

i would firstly like to thank jim for those kind comments, we feel that we were hard done by in the design judging, as at the time all but one of our judges (the chief judge) loved our car and said so openly, when asked if we were proud of our car we replied deffinitely, the judge said that he thought that we should be very proud of it!

anyway, cant wait for the design breakdown to come through so we can see what we 'did wrong'!

i would also like to thank the drexel guys, as they thanked us after their enduro run, when actually i think that they helped us more than we helped them.

we did manage to recover the chain that came off our car and are as yet unsure at to why it snapped, we have never had any problems with it in the past, and that enduro was the first that chain had done, where in testing we used the same chain for 4 enduro runs back to back!

i would also like to say a very well done to the guys from the Queens uni Belfast, as that car looked on rails in enduro, had a chat to them in the pits after and they are genuinly nice guys, i wish them all the best in the future!

Mad Ruska

07-12-2005, 04:00 AM

Originally posted by Denny Trimble:
Igor,
I can't figure out what these lexan guards over the shocks are for:
http://www.dutracing.nl/nontech/photos/event2005/oren_small.jpg

Can you enlighten me? Also, how do you like the Fox propedal shocks? Seems like they do all sorts of fancy things that aren't so good for racecars...

Denny, the Scruteneers want, that all teams covers their shocks, for that case, that a spring break and hurt the driver. (Only for Shocks in the front)

Life of Brian

07-12-2005, 06:47 AM

Like to keep up to speed with all the goss about Formula Student, so thought I better make a few comments about the UK prizes issue.

First, I apologise for the rather late inclusion of a UK specific electronics prize. As a general policy I have been trying to avoid such prizes, but that one sneaked in. Of course sponsors have the right to give whatever prize they want, within reason, but I am aware of the sensitivities and will continue to discourage such prizes in future.

On the subject of the "Best UK Class 1 Team" Prize, this has been in place for many years, without anyone objecting. It is sponsored by a UK organisation (i.e. it is not one of the IMechE/FS official prizes) and its monetary value is less than the Best European Team and Overall Winner Prizes. Given that Formula Student is held in the UK, was started by three UK universities, and has more teams from the UK than any other country, I do not feel that giving a prize to recognise the best of that large sub-set of teams is inappropriate. As to the jeering at the awards ceremony, I found it distasteful, offensive and insensitive. Given the events in London last week and the fact that the Union Flag was flying at half mast throughout the competition, those responsible should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves.

As has also been said in earlier postings, the UK teams were cheered when they got their prizes, so overall I think it best to put the episode down to the emotions (and heat!) of competition and put it behind us. If any of the teams involved wish to make a public apology via the FS web site, I am, of course, happy to publish something or indeed to pass on emails if asked.

Overall, I, my staff, all the judges, marshalls, officials, sponsors and other vounteers all had a thoroughly enjoyable event. The standards of engineering and presentations were truly impressive (as Ross Brawn himself observed). Brunty did us proud, and I'm looking forward already to FS2006! Many many thanks to all the students and faculty advisors and congratulations to all the teams, whichever country they came from!!!

This post is getting too long, so just a quick request that anyone that wants to comment on this year's event is welcome to email me (address is on the FS web site). Any feedback, positive or negative, all helps me to make the thing even better next year, which is, after all, what it's all about.

Brian Robinson
Formula Student Manager
Institution of Mechanical Engineers

P.S. Overall classifications for all Classes now on News (http://www.imeche.org.uk/formulastudent/news.asp) page of FS web site...

Psychosis

07-12-2005, 09:52 AM

just thought id join in on this. it was my first competition and i had a great time, even though our engine only ran for the endurance, of which we completed 6 laps before a body panel came loose and we were pulled. one of the other teams told us we were getting 57s after 3 laps having never driven the car properly before and running on a hybrid carbs system. we'd been sleeping for 3 hours a night for months before the comp trying to get the engine sorted, only once at the comp we realised why our injection wasnt working. it turned out our machinists made our toothed crank wheel from stainless steel instead of mild steel (thought they were being helpful by making it stronger), hence no magnetism and a crap signal. im really proud of our team for never giving up and getting the car on track for the enduro, even if we didnt finish. afterwords we realised we probably wouldnt have finished anyway, 6 laps - 2l of fuel, we'd have emptied our 10l tank! blue smoke all the way and a throttle that was either on or off.

Think we had the best tilt test failure as well, our filler neck worked loose on the petrol tank and came off just as we were titled, think we poured out something like 4litres of fuel http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif good laugh!

I want to send out a warm welcome to all the teams who helped us, there were so many, namely Coventry, bath, sunderland, huddersfield, and many others. the toronto guys desereved to win, they were really friendly and i had a good discussion with them. as to oxford brookes, the comments so far havent been wrong. after 2 hours of sleep we were up at 4 working on our car outside the halls where we were staying and when they wandered past about 7ish the comment "the competitions that way lads" almost got them a smack in the face. then later when we were tidying up after ourselves "is that your new chassis?" pointing at the wheely bin we were using. if i wasnt rushing like a mad man, i would have nailed that wanker. i really hope he isnt representative of the rest of the team.

overall i had a great time, i dont think anyone worked on their car as much as we did at the comp! (my apologies if we seemed too busy to talk) we're gonna be giving everyone a run for their money next year

Cheers

Michael
University of Strathclyde Motorsport
The only Scottish team at the event http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

as to the jeering of british prizes, it sounded distinctly like it was coming from the 60 odd tug racing team, but i cant be sure. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

kingofherts

07-12-2005, 10:16 AM

Just to say hi to everyone at the event. I want to thank the organisers and those that gave up their free time for us guys to prove ourselves on the world stage. We owe you alot and I'll be doing my bit when I wouldn't feel like I'd be imparcial to some teams, or have more experience to critisise.

Following Jim's comments Birmingham were a stunning team, very helpful with an awesome car. Most of the teams were helpful and I'm glad I could help out a few teams that needed it. The standard of UK cars/teams is going up very quickly. As for a team that has been mentioned a few times for less than responsible sportsmanship, all I can say is that some of those guys are genuinely nice people and are probably in shame at the actions of just a few.

I feel honoured to compete with the fantastic cars on show. The need to finish a car early and test it proved itself once again. That would be my tip for any new teams. Ditch the girlfriends, ditch the job, and forget about having a life.

John Goddard
Engine Guy [+ more]
Second driver out on the endurance :-P
UH Racing Class 1 [Car 20]

07-12-2005, 10:28 AM

I'm not from brookes, but i was walking by when i over heard the wheelie bin comment. You say you were using the wheelie bin at the time, tho to me it looked as though you were racing it down the drive and the people pushing it seemed to find the funny side of it. It appears that some people are jumping onto a 'we hate brookes' band waggon. I had a few dealings with the team over the weekend and found them to be a good bunch of people. Their achievments over the last few years should be commended. It does seem however that they have fallen into the same boat as ferrari, people are jelous of their success's and so choose to slag them off.

JoeH

07-12-2005, 11:15 AM

I apologise for any annoyance I may have caused with my comments during the competition. I understand how you feel and would like to assure you that the comments made were not designed to degrade you efforts in the competition, merely banter that has been misconstrued and that obviously was untimely. Congratulations on your awards and I hope you will be competing for many years to come.
On another note I would like to address the issue of "cockiness" I believe that the actions of the Oxford Brookes team during the 2005 competition were entirely justified. If we wish to close our pit we can do so, you don't see professional racing outfits allowing their pit to be used as a thoroughfare and why should we.
People that were interested in viewing the car introduced themselves to the team and were given a guided tour.
I believe that a certain writer on this forum decided after our DNF to jump our barrier and proceed to take close ups of car, at which point he was asked to leave as the team were in no fit state to be hassled by outsiders. I believe this maybe the root of some of the animosity towards the OBU 2005 team.

Again may I apologies and wish you all the best,

Many Thanks

Joe Hartog

Psychosis

07-12-2005, 12:06 PM

fairs fair, i think the issue should be laid to rest, we may have taken it the wrong way due to our complete lack of sleep and elevated stress levelshttp://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. i was awake for 25hours straight before driving the 6 hours to the comp. their achievements deserve respect, though no one in this competition should feel the need to be jealous. Im always thinking how can we better this or that for less money rather than i wish we had that much money to spend. best case being carbon fibre monocoques, whereas results show steel spaceframes are just as competitive. we were exstatic to finish 3rd in costing, and the approach we choose has enabled to do this. i just wish we'd had the time to read about how spark plugs are made! http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Jim400

07-12-2005, 03:56 PM

I agree with Psychosis, lets put this to bed about Oxford Brooks. I received an MSN from a team member from Oxford Brooks this morning apologising for there actions and stating that they meant nothing by it all, we continued to have a half hour chat about our weekends and formula student in general. To be honest that's what i wanted to do from the start, the guy was a top bloke and i hope to talk with him again. To be honest if we had done a 3.8 second acceleration run in testing we would have been cocky. I also think you are all making a mountain out of a mole hill about corning off their pits, we all must have been delayed over the weekend with people in the way when you were working on the car and all the professionals do that. I just wish we had thought that far ahead too, we could also have done with Loughborough's laminate flooring which i thought was a great idea but would take a long time to setup and dismantle.

Some info for Birmingham on their chain, i talked to our team about their failure on Sunday night and one of our team worked for Force Hill climb cars last year on placement. He said that in hill climbs a new chain often breaks for no reason but after you replace the broken link it will be fine till the end of it's like. A valuable lesson to be learnt by all teams.

So let's get on with more stories about teams weekends, pics and congratulations.

Also did anyone get any pics of cars on two wheels, i just missed the Ryerson one by a few seconds.

James Waters
Chassis Designer, Suspension, Packaging and Race Engineer
University of Hertforshire Car 20

SimonUK

07-13-2005, 04:57 AM

Well done Herts http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

You do realise if your car got the same time as our old car (class 200) you would of came second overall!

Jim400

07-13-2005, 05:40 AM

Cheers for re minding us that Simon, if we had we may not finished the enduro like the Class 200 Herts car and then we would have been below 15th and not won Best Brit.

James Waters
Chassis Designer, Suspension, Packaging and Race Engineer
University of Hertforshire Car 20

SimonUK

07-13-2005, 06:27 AM

What happened in the autocross then?

Nice result anyway, not putting it down at all.

Deano

07-13-2005, 09:53 AM

In response to Brian's message, I'd like to congratulate him and his team for the excellent organisation at the event. Your willingness to listen and discuss ideas with the teams is commendable and simply posting messages here shows how much things have improved in the last couple of years. Keep up the good work!

I appreciate your comments regarding the UK prizes in relation to the high proportion of UK teams involved, but still, it's hard to appreciate how it might be consistent and fair. At the rate things are going surely there will be large numbers of teams from specific countries entering, so will there be national prizes for them once the number of entries reaches a certain level? I guess this would be impractical eventually...

I hope I don't appear to be sticking my nose in where it's not wanted, but I couldn't help feel some sympathy for the UK teams having to collect their awards under such circumstances regardless of whether the jeering was fair or not. After all, entitlement to bragging rights for the year is surely reward enough for the leading team from each country http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Congratulations to Herts for their performance - I clearly remember visiting them a few years ago when we were looking to start FS - they were extremely helpful and gave us the full tour of their facilities in the true FS spirit. Now we are up and running (well some of the time!) it's worth pointing out that we're more than happy to welcome other teams that wish to visit us, so if you're in this neck of the woods give us a shout...

In response to Geoff's comments - I'm highly disappointed that you lot weren't able to make it to the UK this year. However, on the positive side it did mean we were one place better off in the overall standings! Hope you're making a better job of the PhD/FS combo than I did http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Thanks James for comments re: laminate flooring. It was a bit of a last minute decision - we managed to put it together pretty quickly - i.e. Wednesday night/Thursday morning. At least now we have careers in the cheapo home improvement market should the engineering work dry up...

Cheers,
Dean
LU Motorsport 2001-2005

ben

07-13-2005, 01:00 PM

Great job by Brian and the team again.

My view on the Best British Team award is that it's an embarressment. The Australian event started after us and Aus teams have won all three events.

My views on why British teams haven't won would require an entire thread on the state of UK unis but suffice it to say that I find a UK only award an insult to the multicultural nature of the competition.

Ben

markocosic

07-13-2005, 01:53 PM

Originally posted by ben:
...suffice it to say that I find a UK only award an insult to the multicultural nature of the competition.

Agreed.

If you'll excuse me playing devil's advocate with my choice of examples, I think its about as appropriate as "best all-white team", "best all-male team" or "best all-christian team"!

There is *massive* resentment amongst the student community about such discriminatory awards, and the backlash against them is already starting to gather pace.

IMO its a credit to the non-UK competitors that they've remained this quiet this long, and that they still cheered the winners of the prize/only jeered at its existence.

Assuming our conscience were to allow it, our university anti-discrimination policy would not allow us to collect such a prize even if we were to win it... http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Psychosis

07-13-2005, 02:06 PM

I did feel the jeering was wholy inappropriate. as already mentioned from a sponsors point of view thats what they want, they need the income from british universities, their target market i.e. RS components who recently lost a number of university contracts. But it is insulting to the british teams that we need our own prizes because someone feels we cant compete on an international scale. as already mentioned, british universities are generally underfacilitated. i know for a fact our university seems to think that because you can do FEA on it, you dont need to manufacture it! resulting in them throwing money at PCs, but we dont even have a CNC machine! HSE is such that we're not even allowed to use a pillar drill, let alone lathes or mills. we are fortunate in that we are allowed to weld hence thats why most of our parts are welded from steel plate/tubing. how does everyone else get on?

Gumby

07-13-2005, 05:41 PM

I have to say that this was our first time at Formula Student and I was disgusted with the track officials. Many times there were cars stopped on track and no flags were in sight. This caused a danger for everyone involved. This lets me and the members of my team appreciate how strict the marshals are in Detroit because at least it is safe.

As for the UK team awards. I agree with ben on this issue. The FSAE event in Detroit was started in Texas, and if there were a best Texan team award at this event there would be a HUGE uproar from all those involved in the event. And if you are going to give awards for best UK and European team where then are the awards for best North American, Australian, South American and Russian team, after all these teams have paid thousands from their OWN POCKETS to attend this event and help make the event as exciting as it was. After all, the fastest lap times in the endurance were from Canadian teams (Waterloo, Ryerson and Ecole Polytechnic) and since this event is all about winning (words from Mr. Robinson himself after the awards ceremony when approached by one of my team mater) this should be recognized.

All in al I would just like to say that I would not recommend going to the event if coming from North America. It is too costly an event to go to and be discriminated against by the event staff at Formula Student.

Sincerely,

Adam

Michael Jones

07-15-2005, 12:45 PM

If you'll excuse me playing devil's advocate with my choice of examples, I think its about as appropriate as "best all-white team", "best all-male team" or "best all-christian team"!

National bragging rights are best done informally (e.g., Canadian schools noting themselves as best Canadian finishers in Detroit...)

The concept of a formal trophy is rather silly, though, especially for established competitions like FSAE-A or F-Student.

It may make a bit more sense in the early days of FSAE-Japan, where local competition is likely to get shut out for a while. That said, as seen with FSAE-A, it doesn't take all that long for good local teams to rise to top-tier international contenders.

Congrats to Toronto! Always great to see my hometown teams do well, and Toronto's always been a great group, especially with their efforts at organizing the fall shootout.

They've always been one of my favourites for bringing the SAE Foundation Cup north for the first time. (Well, the best odds are my just going down and stealing it, but that's not particularly sportsmanlike, and probably illegal.)

vinHonda

07-16-2005, 10:28 AM

What's up Mike?! U back in T.O.?

syoung

07-17-2005, 09:38 AM

All in al I would just like to say that I would not recommend going to the event if coming from North America. It is too costly an event to go to and be discriminated against by the event staff at Formula Student.

That's a little extreme. I can certainly empathise with dissatisfaction at the UK-specific awards, but there are only two of them (and one 'European' award) out of 33, and each of them have direct parallels to 'unrestricted' prizes of greater value.

As I was leaving it appeared some teams were being allowed a RE-RUN in endurance. There were an awful lot of UK teams in there and I hope its not just an effort to get more UK teams in the 'finished endurance' category.
I don't think anybody's answered Marko's statement, way back on the first page of this thread.

The final session of the day was intended for teams which had not set sprint (autocross) times but were able to attempt endurance. I believe I heard that those teams were ineligible for endurance points, although that doesn't seem to be a requirement of the FSAE rules. (Edit: apparently I was wrong - all/nearly all teams that ran in this session were allowed to win points).

Additionally, a very small number of teams - including Turin (Torino) and Warwick - had set sprint times but missed their morning endurance slots, in our case due to a large oil leak in the start queue. These teams ran with a two-minute penalty on their endurance times, as dictated by FSAE rules.

There were no re-runs; ISAT, who retired from morning endurance, were accidentally started, but pulled off track after three laps when the mistake was noted.