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snowwolf
10-12-2008, 04:43 PM
we are a new team on the 2009formula sae!so we donnot have many experiences in driver`s train!is someone could tell me something?

J.R.
10-12-2008, 04:51 PM
We use a local go-kart track, also try reading Drive to Win by Carol Smith.

terra_dactile
10-12-2008, 07:13 PM
1st
safety: choose a spot that is far from posts and sidewalks, they damage the car pretty bad when you hit them, especially right before comp.
Also make sur ethey always wear their safety gear, helmet suit and arm restrains!!!!

2nd
Try and find the best surface you can get, nice smooth big open parking lot, the better the asphalt the beter chance you have to break your car before comp which is esential.

3rd
make a track by the rule of comp, no point it being wider or less then comp otherwise it is not good for drivers as they might get habits that dont help in comp.

4th
Every cone they hit equals 1 big kick in balls, they learn pretty fast not to hit the cones!!!

5th
Recruit competitive karting drivers from your school, those that have driven in some sort of comp can perform under stress, actually real driver get better the more stress thier is.

6th
Make sure that you dont just let the guy or girl that designed the most of the car drive, usually the driver skill is inverly proportionate to their inteligence!!!!


Jude Berthault
ETS FSAE 2003-Current
Vehicle Dynamics

J. Vinella
10-12-2008, 11:23 PM
Don't get into the habit of sending each driver out there to see who gets fastest lap. That will do you no good in endurance. Make sure your drivers push hard right out of the gate and do not hit cones. Overall time is much more important that fastest lap.

Simulate each event a competition and do it often. Even acceleration takes some practice When the difference between a good time and a bad time is .2 seconds over 75 points, IT MATTERS!

Brett Neale
10-13-2008, 05:03 AM
We found gokarting to be extremely beneficial in choosing drivers and continuing to train them. It's also a great social activity to keep the team interested. They're simple enough to let your drivers focus on learning lines and throttle control before stepping up into the FSAE car.

PSUAlum06
10-13-2008, 04:40 PM
another thing that you can do is look at track data. Two drivers will almost always be faster or slower than one another in different parts of a course. If you have data, you can compare lines, brake points, etc. and the two drivers can help each other get faster.

DART-CG
10-14-2008, 01:31 PM
usually the driver skill is inverly proportionate to their inteligence!!!!


Tough statement. OK, take a look at Montoya, or Jimmy Vasser, they fulfill your theory exactly http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
But on the other hand, how dumb must have been a Senna or how wise a R. Schumacher??? http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Magnarama
10-19-2008, 04:57 AM
I'd be pretty keen on seeing what other teams are doing regarding this as well since it's kinda been part of my job as testing manager this year.

Originally posted by terra_dactile:
1st
safety: choose a spot that is far from posts and sidewalks, they damage the car pretty bad when you hit them, especially right before comp.
Also make sur ethey always wear their safety gear, helmet suit and arm restrains!!!!

Would definitely agree there, you really don't need to hit much in these cars to do major damage. Look into local kart tracks, often during weekdays they are pretty empty and happy to have you. If possible try find one with a bit of runoff though, just in case. Again, with safety gear, there are so many things that can go wrong and at the end of the day the drivers will be wearing that equipment at comp, they should be getting used to it.

2nd
Try and find the best surface you can get, nice smooth big open parking lot, the better the asphalt the beter chance you have to break your car before comp which is esential.

Not much of a choice over here unfortunately, we have to take whatever we can get.

3rd
make a track by the rule of comp, no point it being wider or less then comp otherwise it is not good for drivers as they might get habits that dont help in comp.

I've found this a bit harder than it initially sounds, mainly because we don't have a truckload of cones or space to play with different layouts. Definitely try and throw slaloms and a hairpin in where possible though.

4th
Every cone they hit equals 1 big kick in balls, they learn pretty fast not to hit the cones!!!

Definitely reinforce this one early on, the fastest driver may actually be the slowest once cone DOO's are added to their time.


Also has anyone got any good info on using datalogging to train drivers? This year is the first time that we've been able to implement it. We mainly use throttle pos, brake press, steer angle and lat and long accelerometers. Is there anything else that would be handy. Also anyone got any good resources for using data to train drivers? We basically just compare plots from different drivers to try and work out where times can be improved.
Cheers,

Ben Jamin'
03-11-2009, 05:20 AM
Also has anyone got any good info on using datalogging to train drivers? This year is the first time that we've been able to implement it. We mainly use throttle pos, brake press, steer angle and lat and long accelerometers. Is there anything else that would be handy. Also anyone got any good resources for using data to train drivers? We basically just compare plots from different drivers to try and work out where times can be improved.
Cheers,



I recomend the Racecar Data Acquisition book that is available on the SAE website (http://www.sae.org/technical/books/R-367). It talks a lot about what the data means, how to improve the driver, and is very easy to read. It is more of a baseline book, not really in depth, but does include calculations and such. I really recommend it.

PBR-keith
03-11-2009, 11:49 AM
There was a comment about setting up a "competition course". If you have trouble getting cones try asking a local autocross group or even construction company to borrow some on your test days. We have found this to work well for us.

Mike Cook
03-12-2009, 10:36 PM
At the most basic level, make sure that you practice the events like they will be at competition. This means, full safety gear, arm restraints, full cones (inside and OUTSIDE of skidpad). Even good drivers sometimes choke, so itís good to get them very used to the events so there is less pressure the day of the events.

Practice tight autocross courses with minimum radii turns and slaloms. I hate this, it sucks, is not fun, etc. but SAE courses will have these aspects to them, and you can really loose a lot of time if you find that your car can't steer enough or that the steering is too heavy.

Unless you don't have a choice, I would not start new drivers out in the fsae car with slicks. Slicks are tough to drive on (and expensive!) and also, slicks plus lots of power can be disastrous because there is very little room for error before the tires slide out. Coupled with parking lots, curbs, poles, it can be dangerous. I agree with the other poster that go karts are a good starting spot and even I learn a lot from them (running endurances and such).


Good luck, be safe.

JamesWolak
03-24-2009, 09:20 AM
I hear that some teams physically train there drivers and put them on special diets to lose weight. Guess that what you have to do to win west.

Mike Cook
04-03-2009, 09:29 PM
no more weight loss for me anymore...we figured out that with more weight our tires get hotter and I pull more g's. Or I really like chipotle.

Neil S
04-04-2009, 12:26 AM
chipotle does give you that extra thrust, seems to be working for the Brawn GP cars:

Brawnpace secret! (http://formula-1.updatesport.com/news/article/1238573042/formula_one/F1headlines/Exclusive--Brawn-pace-secret/view.html)

JamesWolak
04-20-2009, 09:48 AM
Originally posted by Mike Cook:
no more weight loss for me anymore...we figured out that with more weight our tires get hotter and I pull more g's. Or I really like chipotle.

Our best driver is 200lbs and about 6'2". Like i said its still baller that you did that.

3wVo
04-25-2009, 07:13 AM
I would put a clock on a kart driver. Make sure they are consistent every lap. I want to see aggressive, smart driving and that driver has to take chances like no other.

You find those two traits, make sure they do not burned out too soon or have "seat gap" like Smokey Yunick said is a fearless driver that does not worry about death or family is win at all costs.

ffrgtm
04-27-2009, 04:13 PM
Originally posted by 3wVo:
I would put a clock on a kart driver. Make sure they are consistent every lap. I want to see aggressive, smart driving and that driver has to take chances like no other.

You find those two traits, make sure they do not burned out too soon or have "seat gap" like Smokey Yunick said is a fearless driver that does not worry about death or family is win at all costs.

I really don't think that has anything to do with autocross speeds....

Mike Hart
05-09-2009, 04:26 PM
Can't really add much more to what people have said. It is well worth getting in someone who knows what their doing to cast their critical eye over the drivers. Whether that's just an alumni who was a good driver, or someone else you know who races karts/cars professionally, it will help identify the areas they can improve massively.

Spending just half a day with someone instructing you can teach you stuff that would take literally years to identify yourself. If they refuse to listen, they're just not ever going to be fast. Any good driver will tell you they never stop learning!

An alternative to finding a good driver would be to get someone who's good with telemetry to have identify areas of improvement. Not quite as good, but better than nothing!

Adambomb
11-30-2009, 06:40 PM
This is how we do it in Iowa:

X-Treme Driver Training (http://chunkymonkey.ytmnd.com/)

Oh yeah, lots of good other info here from others...except the whole "aggressive, no chances" thing. I've seen many aggressive drivers, and I've seen several fast drivers, but I have only a couple drivers that were aggressive and fast, and they both did a lot of off-road racing. Chances are if they spent some more time on pavement and mellowed out, they'd probably be faster. Aggressive drivers are most often good at nothing but making team leaders angry and destroying a perfectly good set of tires.

And if you really need a fearless driver, that doesn't worry about death or family...you've got something SERIOUSLY wrong with your car.

RobbyObby
12-07-2009, 01:29 PM
Originally posted by Adambomb:

And if you really need a fearless driver, that doesn't worry about death or family...you've got something SERIOUSLY wrong with your car.
+1

You also have to think about what event they will be driving in. You want the smooth/consistent drivers in the endurance and the fastest in the autocross. If you have a fast but erratic driver in the endurance they will cause hell for your tires and brakes.

BillCobb
12-13-2009, 07:15 PM
I suggest you train them to run a constant radius test. Pick a radius that consumes almost all the engine power you have. They need to be so smooth that your test data looks analytic. Teach them how to read the test results and get from them engineering feedback in terms of "better" or "worse" from nominal. Since its the same 'car' all the time with different suspension settings, parts and tires and pressures, train them to read the tangent speed. That way you will know when the car is getting better/worse without chewing up the tires. Use the ISO4138 procedure. The calculation of front and rear axle sideslip gains will tell you which setup is "better" or "best". If the driver can't be smooth during this phase of development, they definitely won't be any good at the end.

jrickert
12-31-2009, 09:51 PM
Drive as often as possible. There is no substitute for seat time.

TMG24
01-04-2010, 01:03 PM
I agree that there is no substitute for seat time. Data is very powerful in training a new driver too. However, not every school has the budget for data aq. The alternative is walk out on the track and have the driver focus on different sections of the track. Have him drive a straight line and make a left or right turn. This works on many things: acceleration, braking point, trail braking, and downshifting all in one exercise. This can be done with skid-pad type turns like carousels and with slaloms. Maximizing test time is vital in this competition. Use an old car if your new one isn't done yet.

Dali
05-04-2010, 04:01 PM
We first choose our drivers with go-karts...

After we have our "top 10" we take our old cars and let them train with the old cars - to get a better feeling for the speed http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

jpusb
06-08-2010, 08:48 AM
We also use go karts as a filter. And let me tell you, we use SHITTY go-karts with a tight cone course we set and you can see HORRIBLE things happen there. Then the 6 heroes that make it to the Formula car, time-race each other in the previous year car, simulating each event except for full lenght endurances (which we replace with like 5 lap sessions or anything that can show consistency and quick drivers but that is longer than a two lap attack). After that we choose the drivers that will be driving at MIS and train them in their particular event.

IMPORTANT. This year we found REALLY helpful to record each driver's session with a GoPro or something like that. Put it over the main hoop, it is not the best place for a show off video, but it definitely shows driver's mistakes, understeer, oversteer, and it is pretty easy for the drivers to see how the good driver does something good that they don't. It is typical to hear a new driver complaining about the car not entering a turn (corner entry understeer) and then you see the video of the guy who drives best and he does it no problemo style, fighting, in fact, with hard braking - downshifting oversteer.

We gained a lot this year with the GoPro, specially getting all drivers up and closer in performance.

And if you really need a fearless driver, that doesn't worry about death or family...you've got something SERIOUSLY wrong with your car

hahahhahahah +1

MX5Bob
06-21-2010, 09:47 AM
SCCA Solo racing and karting, indoor or outdoor, are excellent ways to develop driver skill.

Several good books include Carroll Smith's Driving to Win, and Going Faster, can't recall the author.

TMG24
06-29-2010, 06:04 AM
I always took the guys that worked the most on the car and had my own little shootout in the fall. The "TG Shootout with one of the older entries, and it accomplished 2 things. One, it showed that if you work on the cars you get the opportunity to drive (huge moral booster), and two, it allowed me to see who was fast so in the spring not alot of time was wasted sifting through the talent. This worked well for our team.

Thrainer
07-11-2010, 11:57 AM
I don't know how much it helped our drivers, but the FSE teams from Graz, Zwickau, Munich and Zurich had the opportunity to drive the Formula BMW cars for some laps.

http://www.amzracing.ch/amz/files/amz1568.jpg

http://www.formula-bmw-racing-experience.com/


As far as selecting drivers for the events, it's pretty easy when you have only four potential drivers registered for an event and you're used to testing with about five people.

Regards,
Thomas

DougMilliken
01-07-2011, 05:47 AM
Originally posted by BillCobb:
I suggest you train them to run a constant radius test....

Makes a lot of sense to start with a circle--if you have a car ready in time for driver training.

If you don't have an experienced driver and the engineers are going to drive, then I strongly recommend, "The Technique of Motor Racing" by Piero Taruffi. One of the few top race drivers who was also an engineer. The book is old, before drivers had to learn to use aero downforce--perfect for FSAE.

BluSTi
06-04-2013, 06:39 AM
Originally posted by DART-CG:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> usually the driver skill is inverly proportionate to their inteligence!!!!


Tough statement. OK, take a look at Montoya, or Jimmy Vasser, they fulfill your theory exactly http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
But on the other hand, how dumb must have been a Senna or how wise a R. Schumacher??? http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mr. Senna and Mr. Schumacher were smart enough to tell the engineers what they needed to know, and then let them do their jobs.