Question concerning FSAE and Mini Baja teams at the same University

[Axil]

Okay this question pertains to those Universities that have a Mini Baja team as well as a Formula team. Some of you may remember that I am trying to get the Formula car started here at my college. All is going very well http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. Support from the right people w/in the college and dedicated, knowledgeable team members. Tonight was the first SAE meeting of this year. It was to elect new officers for the top four offices, as they are graduating. After that was done, the Mini Baja was talked about and then questions from potential members were asked about the F-car, at which point I took the stage, after which all HELL broke loose.

The issue made by the graduating president was trying to fund two projects & splitting of the SAE org. The worry was that the Formula car would kill off the Mini Baja. I tried to reassure the graduating team that their efforts in establishing the 1st Mini Baja at the college would not be for nothing. That we were not going to pull students/funds from that team or, kill the Mini Baja. The graduating president VERY concerned about two projects splitting SAE. This went on, and on. Bottom line was they were against it.

In my opinion, each team should be in charge of recruiting students and raising funds for their projects. If one team is lacking, and the other is not due to flat out busting their ass and sacrificing or doing whatever it takes, then whose fault is that? This is all with the prior agreement that one team DOES NOT try to persuade a donator from the other team. In a way I feel that at any University that has these two teams, that SAE org. is split to an extent. On the issue of funds, we are unable to get two separate accounts for each team. So, that is an issue that we will need to find a solution to, very soon.

I just wanted to know how this was handled at other Universities so that I know what has been found to work. Please feel free to post any comments or suggestions. I am not easily offended, so if you don't share my views, it's alright. If you need more to make a suggestion on just ask.

Thank you
Chad

[Axil]

Okay this question pertains to those Universities that have a Mini Baja team as well as a Formula team. Some of you may remember that I am trying to get the Formula car started here at my college. All is going very well http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. Support from the right people w/in the college and dedicated, knowledgeable team members. Tonight was the first SAE meeting of this year. It was to elect new officers for the top four offices, as they are graduating. After that was done, the Mini Baja was talked about and then questions from potential members were asked about the F-car, at which point I took the stage, after which all HELL broke loose.

The issue made by the graduating president was trying to fund two projects & splitting of the SAE org. The worry was that the Formula car would kill off the Mini Baja. I tried to reassure the graduating team that their efforts in establishing the 1st Mini Baja at the college would not be for nothing. That we were not going to pull students/funds from that team or, kill the Mini Baja. The graduating president VERY concerned about two projects splitting SAE. This went on, and on. Bottom line was they were against it.

In my opinion, each team should be in charge of recruiting students and raising funds for their projects. If one team is lacking, and the other is not due to flat out busting their ass and sacrificing or doing whatever it takes, then whose fault is that? This is all with the prior agreement that one team DOES NOT try to persuade a donator from the other team. In a way I feel that at any University that has these two teams, that SAE org. is split to an extent. On the issue of funds, we are unable to get two separate accounts for each team. So, that is an issue that we will need to find a solution to, very soon.

I just wanted to know how this was handled at other Universities so that I know what has been found to work. Please feel free to post any comments or suggestions. I am not easily offended, so if you don't share my views, it's alright. If you need more to make a suggestion on just ask.

Thank you
Chad

[Ryan Schoffer]

i find the type of person apt to join a MB team, is definetly not very likely to enjoy being a part of a formula team, or vise versa

things get done alot of different ways, so the teams have a very different type of membership (although i could see some people swithing over, es if they are into racing and are on baja because it is all that is avaliable)

funding is another issue, but we get most of ours from outside sponsorship

[ethanL007]

We (UNH) have had baja for 8-9 years, and this is our first FSAE car. The faculty advisor for the baja is also the coordinator for all senior projects. He told us to find a faculty advisor, and raise as much money as we could (avoiding baja sponsors) and we could do whatever we wanted. It has actually gone pretty well, we finally (January) got into the baja shop and now share space and tools.

It is handy to have a fresh set of eyes to look at a problem that you are having, which the baja team is always willing to do, but it is also frustrating when they have such a less complicated vehicle that they are finished far ahead of us.

Basicly just keep plugging, show them that you are going to finish the project no matter what. We ended up having about 1000 dollars in inventory before we even got approval. Take up a collection from team members, that was our first 600 dollars.

[js10coastr]

The people that join Baja, versus formula come from 2 totally different groups. "beer and burgers" for the baja, while formula is made up of "wine and cheese".

Funding is sometimes an issue, but it depends on where you get your money from to begin with.

The positive side to having both, is increasing total membership and interest. We are able to have a larger body at our general meetings because we have 2 pools to pull from.

Also, sometimes we need to borrow a few inches of round stock that we forgot to order....it helps when there is another resource...and vice versa. We share a lot with baja, data acquisition, van, trailer...etc.

Sponsors can get double the exposure if you have 2 teams.

I really can't help you with the funding argument, since it depends on where you get your money...but baja and formula teams bring in seperate groups of people. I know of only one person who has jumped ship from formula to baja in my entire college career.

[Daygo Nighthawk]

Interesting topic, we at University of California San Diego are doing just the opposite.

We started the Formula SAE team here last year, and are looking to start a Mini Baja SAE team this year.

This is in part due to many people on the formula team and from the school expressing interest in doing an off-road car.

I'm much more of the on-road racing type, however I believe I will be on Mini Baja just for the fun of it.

I believe that the Mini Baja and Formula team will be highly beneficial for exposure of the SAE team here at UCSD. I also believe that the teams don't have to be mutually exclusive; I definitely plan to be an active member of both teams. I also believe this cross-membership also lends itself to better sub-system development. For instance, I was one of the major designers of the suspension for the Formula car this year. If we had Mini Baja, I would already know the requirements of a suspension- the dynamic loads, the packaging difficulties, roll center migration, etc etc etc. I could therefore do the Mini Baja suspension fairly easily, with some more research into off-road suspension design.
Same goes for things like data-aquisition, electronics, powertrain, drivetrain, frame design, etc,.

The monetary issue brings up a point I haven't made a stance on yet. Let's give it a try: There is a large off-road following in nearby areas, and so we figure that we can also get a good amount of support for sponsorships. Perhaps some of these sponsors would be willing to dish out more money to sponsor both teams.
I believe in a (theoretical) budget structure: to have one large SAE fund, with annual budget allocations for each project (e.g. 30% mini baja, 70% formula).
This mainly cancels any conflict between two separate teams vying for much needed sponsorship. ("hey, WE need cymer as a sponsor!" "no we do!") In my opinion, one good sponsorship sell to a company is better than two half-assed ones.
This also allows for sponsor flexibility; If the sponsor makes off-road buggies, then they can specify that they want a large logo on the mini baja car, rather than two smaller size logos on both the formula car and the mini baja car.

Anyway, that was what I had in my head- maybe it will give you some good ideas, maybe it was a complete waste of your time. Either way, back to my studying all-nighter!

[Michael Jones]

Great ideas.

We've just started a MB team here, and there is some tension. I've worked with them as part of my job (actually will be going to MB East in a couple of weeks with team, who's observing now and planning to compete next year) and continue to work with FSAE on my own time (typing is painful since I think I've sanded off my fingerprints doing body work yesterday...)

The biggest problem will be to raise the stature of the MB beyond that of the minor leagues for the FSAE team. In many ways, it is - if you want to do anything regarding engine development or electronics, obviously MB isn't the way to go. It's a much simpler system as a whole.

But in many ways, MB provides challenges that FSAE need not face (e.g., designing for the less specific challenges of off-road use), and also has many similar tasks (e.g., basic suspension geometry, frame design, ergonomics, etc.)

And of course MB will attract different kinds of drivers, but both MB and FSAE really don't recruit drivers and FSAE in particular tries to stress engineering over driving at all turns so we don't have any obnoxious prima donnas running around. Our best drivers have generally been our best enigneers as well.

We don't have a strong formal SAE structure to bridge the two teams, nor is one likely to emerge - the teams operate independently.

There are possibilities for overlap and the necessity for it of course - MB being new is short on cash and has no specific space, and is presently building a prototype in the student machine shop until some better place can be arranged (a task that has made my job a royal PITA - space politics here suck eggs.)

So, I've had to help them build relations with FSAE and the hybrid electric team to use some of our common spaces for construction, and the coordinator of the machine shop has helped them out considerably in manufacturing the prototype, which is good of him.

But you do get territorial pissing wars and increasingly, recruiting issues. MB recruited earlier in the spring term as did many other teams here, and we normally recruit new members for competition. This year's applicant pool was much smaller than normal since we've had many new teams pop up and older teams grow in size.

So, we've already found it difficult to compete with more electronics-oriented projects such as Robocup and the Autonomous Underwater Vehicle group - and two more autonomous projects are in the works or already started up to boot. Now, we'll probably find it difficult to compete for those interested primarily in frame, suspension, ergonomics, administration, etc. - and MB and FSAE alike already compete there with teams like HEV and Moonbuggy.

It'll be interesting to see how MB develops in the future here - I've been a big supporter of their effort and enthusiasm, and I hope it continues into next year so they can compete and do well. I think they will.

But of course, I'm certainly not going to gut FSAE to do so. I think it will settle though into different camps with different identities eventually - with perhaps some inevitable bleeding from MB into FSAE if they're interested in more complex engine related questions, and perhaps bleeding the other direction if off-road designs are a driving force behind an engineer's interests.

[SeanZasada]

Hey Chad

At the U of Manitoba, we have had the Mini Baja, Air Cargo, and Formula projects on the go for many years. Altogether, this year we have over 60 members in our student organization. Our fundraising is done for the whole organization, not just for one team. When a team needs to make a purchase, the money comes from the pool. There are pros and cons to this approach, but in the case that one team is lacking members or support, and other teams are flourishing, then the lacking team can still survive. It is kind of like a safety net, to ensure that all three projects will progress each year. As for fundraising, all three teams go after sponsors with hopes to either provice raw materials, parts specific to those members' vehicle team, or of course, cash. The cash, as I mentioned, goes into a big pool, so there is not a worry about "stealing" a mini-baja sponsor, or air cargo sponsor. Our university gives about $8000 CDN each year, and then we fundraise the rest and have usually around 50 sponsors each year (that can take more time for our team than actually building the car!) I cant recall a situation where our teams are fighting over the last dime, so things usually work out financially for each team. Check out our website at www.umsae.com (http://www.umsae.com) - it shows all three of our teams.

[James Waltman]

We have a Mini-Haha team here as well. The teams get along pretty well – I would call it a friendly rivalry. We also have Tour de Sol entries, but those cars hardly get worked on compared to the SAE cars.

We share shop resources and that is never really a problem, although space is at a premium. This year we are working on two Baja cars (Viking 36 and 37 (http://vri.etec.wwu.edu/minibaja/index.html)), one FSAE car (Viking 35 (http://dot.etec.wwu.edu/fsae/)), two Tour de Sol cars (http://www.nesea.org/transportation/tour/) cars (Viking 32 (http://fsae.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=763607348&f=648600998&m=74010383211) and Viking 23 (http://www.viking23.org/)– both full size cars), and Viking 7's restoration. Our shop is big but that many projects really pushes it.

The teams all have separate accounts and we do all of our own fundraising. Fundraising is not a strong point for either team so we don't really get in each others way.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>js10coastr
The people that join Baja, versus formula come from 2 totally different groups. "beer and burgers" for the baja, while formula is made up of "wine and cheese".
Ryan Schoffer
i find the type of person apt to join a MB team, is definetly not very likely to enjoy being a part of a formula team, or vise versa <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ryan Schoffer and js10coastr are right to some extent. Both competitions have things that appeal to different people. The people that can be classified like this are not the best team members. The key members on both teams are the type who would spend all of their time in the shop working their asses off for any project.

Is there really any such thing as a "wine and cheese"� college student? Our SAE teams would be "cheap beer and 99 cent burgers"�.

Chad,
What school are you at? How many people are involved in Mini-Baja right now – real contributing members? I think that a Baja car needs at least 3 guys and a FSAE car needs at least 5 guys who are willing to give up everything to make it.