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DDTUM
12-18-2002, 03:32 PM
Hi all. I´ll like to know which could be the best E-managemente to work on a F4i engine to get the best tuning.
thx
German R.

Venezuela Power

DDTUM
12-18-2002, 03:32 PM
Hi all. I´ll like to know which could be the best E-managemente to work on a F4i engine to get the best tuning.
thx
German R.

Venezuela Power

Cats
12-19-2002, 06:37 AM
We are using an ECU from Performance Electronics. We have not run it with a F4i yet, but it shouldn't be any differnt than a F4. We have worked with these guys for about 5 years now, with no major problems in the recent past. The software is really easy to use. The company is composed of 3 FSAE alumni, so their customer support is great. You can check out their website at www.pe-ltd.com (http://www.pe-ltd.com)

dan
Bearcat Motorsports

DDTUM
12-19-2002, 03:15 PM
I`ll take a look on it.
thx
German R.

Venezuela Power

Dany Garant
01-13-2003, 04:35 PM
Hi everyone,

Fisrt, are there any teams using AEM engine management system this year? Any problems with this new stuff?

Then, are there any teams that has a used motec M4 engine management for sale. I would be surprised, but who knows!

Thanks,

Dany Garant
Powertrain Engineering Director
Université Laval FSAE
Québec, Canada

David Money
01-16-2003, 08:07 AM
MoTec, MoTec, MoTec..... VERY good. VERY flexible. As an example, you can control INDIVIDUAL fuel injectors. Very expensive, but you have to pay to play. BAR or Ferrari...which one do you think spent more money (remember who's in first place)?

Scott M.
01-19-2003, 07:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dany Garant:
Hi everyone,

Fisrt, are there any teams using AEM engine management system this year? Any problems with this new stuff?

Then, are there any teams that has a used motec M4 engine management for sale. I would be surprised, but who knows!

Thanks,

Dany Garant
Powertrain Engineering Director
Université Laval FSAE
Québec, Canada<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is at least one school out there selling their Motec so they can switch to AEM. They were convinced the AEM was better after seeing it work. The Motec can not do as much as the AEM (auto mapping for example).

The AEM package is $1503. You know how much a Motec is...

Scott
Superior Engine Technology
Exclusive Supplier of AEM to FSAE
Penn State FSAE 94-96

[This message was edited by Scott M. on January 19, 2003 at 11:04 AM.]

awhittle
01-19-2003, 12:42 PM
Cats

Is there any way to set up an injection system without a wideband o2 setup and a dyno? I would think that you would at least have to have an o2 box feading back to the ecu constently sending feul corrections for a combination of load and rpm. With enough data points you could estimate the points you never got to by looking at the new graphs.

Just thinking out loud. I have never owned one of these programable systems but would love to learn.

Lyn Labahn UW-Madison
01-19-2003, 02:24 PM
UW-Madison has won the Bosch Engine Management award the past two years with a Mototron ECU, so I would say that is decent reasoning to assume it might be the best. Can you purchase one? I am afraid not, we pretty much have an exclusive relationship with them. However, you never know what some OEM might be cooking up in your state, see if you can get one of your team members to intern at a manufacturer and learn their product, they might lend you a a few units and some sensors. In exchange they will have an awesome base of potential employees to recruit from who will now their products. Just a thought.

2002/2003 Team Leader

Cats
01-20-2003, 08:20 AM
awhittle

I'm a suspension/frame guy, so I won't be able to answer all of you question. I can say that we don't use a wideband O2 sensor, but we do use a dyno. You should probably ask B Lewis for a more accurate answer.

Dan

B Lewis @ PE Engine Management
01-20-2003, 09:34 AM
The ONLY way to properly tune an engine is with some sort of load applying device (dyno). Using an O2 sensor will give you some feedback on how rich or how lean the mixture is, but what you really want to do is tune for maximum power. Don't fall into the trap of tuning the engine just for a specific air/fuel ratio. This may get you in the ballpark, but because different engines make power with different mixtures, this is not a valid method.

We have access to a wide band O2 measurement system and we rarely use it. You can learn much more about an engine just by watching the output and listening to speed at specific load points while on the dyno. With a good dyno, an engine can be fuel mapped in one day.

On another note, we are still offereing our complete engine management system for $760. For those of you running Honda engines you can now use the stock crank sensor with our modified wheel (provided in the kit). Just add sensors and go!!!!

Brian Lewis
Performance Electronics, Ltd.
www-pe-ltd.com
(513) 777-5233

ANDONI
01-21-2003, 01:54 AM
German R.
Venezuela Power

Who are you?? Are you from Venezuela???

Andoni Mazeika
www.formulasaeusb.com (http://www.formulasaeusb.com)

ANDONI
01-21-2003, 01:57 AM
Coño pana... ya se quien eres..

sorry

How is your car going???

Andoni Mazeika
www.formulasaeusb.com (http://www.formulasaeusb.com)

JasonK
01-27-2003, 07:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>There is at least one school out there selling their Motec so they can switch to AEM. They were convinced the AEM was better after seeing it work. The Motec can not do as much as the AEM (auto mapping for example).

The AEM package is $1503. You know how much a Motec is...

Scott
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I find that a little hard to believe that a team would switch from Motec to the AEM unit. I have seen the AEM unit and yes it is a good unit with many nice features, but I think that it is a little under the capabilities of the Motec. Perhaps I am just speaking in a larger displacment realm. I personally run a speedpro in my personal car and love it.

Scott M.
01-28-2003, 01:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JasonK:

I think that it is a little under the capabilities of the Motec.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What capabilities exactly are you refering to? There are a couple of advanced features in the Motec that are still in the works for the AEM, but they are coming (like traction control).

That aside, the Motec dosen't do the basic stuff as well. Like the fact that that it can't use the stock F4i cam crank wheel configuration... That by itself shows how much more flexible the AEM is.

Compare the features/dollar... The AEM blows it away.

If you are looking for that Motec, look under the For Sale items of this forum...

Scott
Superior Engine Technology

[This message was edited by Scott M. on January 28, 2003 at 06:38 PM.]

JasonK
01-28-2003, 06:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Compare the features/dollar... The AEM blows it away <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Definately true there. Again, I guess that I am still speaking in the larger displacement realm. I have seen much more power extracted from a Motec unit vs the AEM unit. Definately, bang for the buck...AEM is the unit of choice.

Spike
01-28-2003, 11:18 PM
I am sorry but you have to lose your BS sales pitch Scott. Motec has been doing engine management for a long time, probably longer then AEM has been a around. The systems are top notch, and are used in all pro-levels of motorsports. They are proven to work time after time. They have thousands of systems out there controlling some very expensive engines. Ask King Missile what engine management system the Yoshimura Suzuki team had/has fuelling there 350,000+ dollar superbikes. Yes, it might take some custom parts to make it work. No, it cannot make its own maps. Should it really have to? Personal I would not trust a chunk of code to tune my engine. There is not a doubt in my mind and in thousands of other people's that Motec is the best engine management system out there.

The bottom line Scott is that your company got in the Engine Management business a year ago. Your system works for ONE of five possible 600cc engines. Your system is still under development! How many systems to you have out there right now? And I'm not talking about the ones that are sitting on the shelf in some garage, I'm talking about ones that are in a car or bike that are being used. You're using teams to test the system, that's all fine and dandy until a bug shows up in the middle of the competition. Or until your auto-mapping software leans out someone's engine and melt s a hole in a piston. The only thing you have on the Motec is the cost. Therefore, Scott do not start running your mouth off how Motec is junk and your system so much better, when you don't have a leg to stand on. Remember you have to sell a system before someone can post it in the forsale section. And being that it was only released four months ago it would surely say something about it if there was one in there.

Scott M.
01-29-2003, 02:03 PM
Spike, first of all, I am not bad talking the Motec. It is proven, and very good. How many teams are out there using it to its abilities? Most are not. That means most teams need something that is easy to setup and use.

The AEM is NOT under hardware development. The only thing being developed is the advanced feature for this application (thus application development). Read this as software development/improvement. If any AEM users have feature requests that can improve performance, it will be implemented if possible. Try that with the others...
As far as other applications, well, it works on all of them. But you have to start somewhere. The F4i is well suited and that is what I have maps for. It is all about product support. The box has been run on some of the other engines you mention. Actually I was considering putting one on my lawn mower. Just to do it.

BTW, I have a turbo FSAE car that I run with this unit. How many of the other units had FSAE time on them before it was out in the field? I am open to suggestions as to how to get anything more applicable... I am working with teams to expand the database, not do all the development.

And I think you missed a little. There is a Motec for sale in the FS section. So they can buy an AEM...

The bottom line is that the AEM is a SIMPLE unit to get up and running with. It comes with maps that will start your engine. The target schools are not the highest end users. There is always something better if you want to pay. Some joe average team is out there right now trying to get their stock NA F4i running on some other box. This is just an easier way.

Scott
Superior Engine Technology
Exclusive Supplier of AEM to FSAE
Penn State FSAE 94-96

Scott M.
01-29-2003, 03:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JasonK:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Compare the features/dollar... The AEM blows it away <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Definately true there. Again, I guess that I am still speaking in the larger displacement realm. I have seen much more power extracted from a Motec unit vs the AEM unit. Definately, bang for the buck...AEM is the unit of choice.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am not sure I agree. If properly tuned either system should produce EQUAL power with basic functions. The idea is the same, correct amount of fuel and timing for each cylinder for each map point. The engine doesn't know how it gets it. As long as you don't run out of map points and time it should be identical. 8x8 maps don't work well for tuned, boosted, high speed engines though.

There is a better chance that you find this "optimum" condition when you have good high speed data to see what is going on. So given equal tuning skills, it comes down to user interface and ease of use as to who is going to get it the best.

Scott
Superior Engine Technology
Exclusive Supplier of AEM to FSAE
Penn State FSAE 94-96

MoTeC USA
01-29-2003, 04:31 PM
Greetings FSAE Competitors.

This is a good topic for dicussion. It also is a very popular one on several message boards. Interestingly enough it seems to always involve AEM and MoTeC among others.

Regardless, it is unfair in my opinion to compare a management system which is specifically designed for a given application to one which is truly a universal management system. At MoTeC we have never claimed to have a drop in system which is ready to run for any specific application. It has been our experience over the past 16 years that a universal system can reach a larger "audience" of prospective customers and we have pushed our products in that direction. We typically sell to the racing industry and in that market it is not required that your system be plug and play.

As to whether or not we can run the engine mentioned above, I would have to know the number of teeth on the crankshaft and the camshaft to be able to tell. You can have a look for yourself in our software which as always is a free download from MoTeC Software Page (http://www.motec.com/software.htm)

We can read several different types of triggers and if the demand were high enough we might create a special mode for a specific trigger arrangement.


As for the auto tune feature, we have tested some auto tuning software. Although is seems to work well, we feel that the process of tuning an engine to extract maximum power is something that must be done on a dyno with a human at the helm. As someone mentioned above, it is impossible to know what the optimum air fuel ratio is for a given engine without testing it on the dyno. Once the peak power is acheived the air fuel ratio can be monitored to use as a guideline. Additionally we feel to tune the engine properly, we would need a lambda input per cylinder to be able to make the proper trims. Since we dont know what lambda provides optimum power until we test it, we feel it is somewhat of a moot point to implement auto tuning. Maybe in the future we will arrive at a different conclusion.

If anyone has any questions that I can answer about MoTeC and how our products operate I would be more than happy to do so via email or by telephone 714-897-6804. I can not speak to the capabilities or incapabilities of other systems because I have no intimate knowledge of those systems and dont feel my opinion would be valid.

Just for information the MoTeC Formula SAE package price is 3425.00 US

Hope to see everyone at the Competition this year with their systems (whatever brand they may be) working well.

See you at the Silverdome
Shane

tommy
01-29-2003, 10:41 PM
On the F4i, the MOTEC M4 can use the stock 12-tooth crank sensor wheel. For the 3-tooth cam sensor, two teeth are cut off, giving the required one pulse per engine cycle. If you have the MOTEC software this is modes 11 through 14.

gtmsracer
01-30-2003, 02:24 PM
A MoTeC is the best unless you have $7000 or $8000 to spend for a Bosch ECU.


You get what you pay for with ECU's. The MoTeC is far superior than any AEM ECU. If you only have $1500 to spend then the AEM isn't bad for the money, but if you have the money, the MoTeC is much better. Plus you have the option of running the MoTec ADL datalogger. AEM doesn't offer this. For the problem with the trigger wheel on the F4i, we just made a new wheel. Its not that hard to do. MoTec is an awesome ECU and they stand by them. I can't tell you how many times we've called them with questions and they have always helped us.

Shamus Yandle
Georgia Tech Motorsports 1998-Present
2001/2002 Formula Student Champions
2002 Formula SAE - 3rd place

[This message was edited by gtmsracer on January 30, 2003 at 06:04 PM.]

Mechanicaldan
01-31-2003, 12:11 AM
Maybe not the best, but right now, the cheapest. We're pretty happy with the E48 right now.

http://www.dtafast.co.uk/

E48 EXP $995
P8Pro $1500

Cyclone Racing
Iowa State University
Engine Team Leader

Scott M.
01-31-2003, 06:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gtmsracer:
Plus you have the option of running the MoTec ADL datalogger. AEM doesn't offer this.


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are sort of correct. The AEM does not offer an optional data logger. That is because it is BUILT IN AND INCLUDED. 512k memory with data rates up to 250Hz.

As far as the trigger wheel goes, yes, it isn't that hard to modify or make a new one, but the idea with the AEM is that you have to. You got a lot of other thing to beuild before May...

Scott
Superior Engine Technology
Exclusive Supplier of AEM to FSAE
Penn State FSAE 94-96

B Lewis @ PE Engine Management
01-31-2003, 09:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Daniniowa:
Maybe not the best, but right now, the cheapest. We're pretty happy with the E48 right now.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I have to disagree. The most bang for your buck is our PE-ECU-1 system (home page (http://www.pe-ltd.com)). $760 USD is the SAE price for the ECU, harness and pickup wheel.

Scott M.
01-31-2003, 09:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DDTUM:
Hi all. I´ll like to know which could be the best E-managemente to work on a F4i engine to get the best tuning.
thx
German R.

Venezuela Power<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

To answer your question directly is difficult. By the discussion on this thread you can see that everyone has his or her own options.
It really comes down to what you need and what your expectations are. The stock ECU can be made to work if you want to. Be careful with the fuel trims, they are big, and remember it is mainly throttle based. If you can determine what the engine needs, just about any system can deliver the fuel and spark.

IMO, building your own controller is the ultimate. You get everything you want, and nothing you don't. It is a good learning experience and the design judges like it too...

Scott
Superior Engine Technology
Exclusive Supplier of AEM to FSAE
Penn State FSAE 94-96