F4i

[ashish]

Hi

We are switching over from a Yamaha R6 to a Honda F4i. If any team is willing to sell one or has any contact of somebody selling the complete engine kindly contact us at defianzracing@rediffmail.com

Defianz Racing
Delhi College of Engineering

[ashish]

Hi

We are switching over from a Yamaha R6 to a Honda F4i. If any team is willing to sell one or has any contact of somebody selling the complete engine kindly contact us at defianzracing@rediffmail.com

Defianz Racing
Delhi College of Engineering

[vinHonda]

Whutz up guys?

Ebay. We got ours there.....and I'm sure they'll ship it to you guys for that extra price.

Cheers!

Vinh

University of Toronto Formula SAE Racing Team
www.fsae.utoronto.ca (http://www.fsae.utoronto.ca)

[ashish]

Hi vinh

Last yr we bought the engine from our own pockets.

Now the college (bureaucracy) is willing to buy us one, and the prob is that the college cannot purchase from the net.
Neither are they willing to reimburse the team if we buy from our own pockets.:-(

U think if we speak to a honda dealership in the U.S will they be able to provide us with one?

Thanx

Arpit
Defianz Racing
delhi College of Engineering

[Spec]

ashish,

What you might try doing is getting a hold of a bike shop in your area and arranging a "deal."

Try getting an engine off ebay (as that is by far the cheapest way to go) See if you can get the bike shop to buy the engine off you and then get them to sell it back to your team for the same cost. The shop losses no money and then you have a legitimate purchase receipt for the bureaucracy to deal with. (make sure your university will accept a bike shop receipt first)

With the university, you sometimes have to deal in smoke and mirrors, what they don't know won't hurt them and will make things easier for you.

Steve
U of Calgary FSAE
www.ucalgary.ca/fsae (http://www.ucalgary.ca/fsae)

[ashish]

Thanks for the advice steve.

Out here in our country we still run cars with 800cc so to think of bikes above 250 cc is a criminal offence :-).
We dont even have honda selling their bikes out here as yet.

U know we are looking at something of this sort of arrangement from an american dealer or maybe a salvage yard or an individual etc.

Arpit
Defianz Racing
Delhi College of Engineering

[vinHonda]

Arpit,

Good to see you guys start'n fast and riding the momentum of Formula Student this year!!! We are also finished our design of the 04 car!

With Ebay..... all it is is bidding. Once you have won the bid, you are dealing w/ an american dealer via phone. That's how we dealt with a company in Florida.

It's funny that people suggestd the 'local' bike shop in New Delhi!!!

Just a note to all the teams.....I've met the New Delhi team.... fantastic guys, really really bright guys...... the problem they really really run into is that INDIA.... isn't like America where we can just order stuff from HRP or Chassis Shop easily!

Anyhow, good luck w/ finding the F4i.

Vinh

University of Toronto Formula SAE Racing Team
www.fsae.utoronto.ca (http://www.fsae.utoronto.ca)

[Charlie]

Arpit-

You can contact Willie's Cycles at http://www.williescycle.com . They have sponsored Auburn for many, many years and I know other teams have purchased engines from them. They will likely give you a good price and will provide a legitimate reseller for the university to contact.

-Charlie Ping
Auburn University FSAE (http://eng.auburn.edu/organizations/SAE/AUFSAE)
5th Overall Detroit 2003
? Overall Aussie 2003. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[woollymoof]

Half the teams in Oz use these guys, as their site says, they ship anywhere in the world.
http://www.victorianmotorcyclewreckers.com.au/

Cheers,

Kirk Veitch
Swinburne University of Technology

[All Wheeler]

Does anyone have a base map for the honda CBR F4i. We're strugglin!(We are using an M4 motec ECU).

[Frank]

we've got a few...

they are dependant on throttle size (primarilly)

and restrictor geometry (secondarily)

what is your throttle size?

we have them for 34mm throttles, and 46mm throttles

regards

Frank

ps... it's so much quicker to get a pro to tune it

ask your local motec dealer to do it

at least then you'll know if you're even doing the right thing.. and / or have the correct equipment to do it

you are using an engine dyno aren't you? .. i havn't seen any cars even come close to being tuned with a chassis dyno

[All Wheeler]

Cheers. It might be worth our while hiring some pro time to tune the engine. We are using an engine dyno, so that's probably a good starting point.

[John Gregor]

Guys this is a student competition eg. students do the work. getting advice from a pro is sensible but getting them to do it is just lazy.

[Charlie]

I have to agree with John. I see getting a pro to tune your engine at the same level as getting a chassis manhufacturer to fabricate your frame.

-Charlie Ping
Auburn University FSAE (http://eng.auburn.edu/organizations/SAE/AUFSAE)
5th Overall Detroit 2003
? Overall Aussie 2003. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Frank]

kind of difficult when your uni doesn't have a dyno....

and Paul is just so god damn good at it http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

4 hours, $300 US, done

(it takes longer to set up than tune)

http://www.uq.edu.au/fsae/2003dyno.htm

[This message was edited by Frank on September 04, 2003 at 05:48 PM.]

[gug]

were those two dyno runs done on the same dyno? was there a turbo involved? cause the power at 5krpm is just about doubled. i dont have much experience with tuning, but thats pretty amazing!

- if it isnt coming, you need a bigger tool.

[Sam]

New restrictor, slightly bigger plenum, new exhaust, a little fairy dust..

Sam Graham
Engine Group Leader 2003
UQ Racing

[Charlie]

What's causing that hole at 7k? Ouch!

-Charlie Ping
Auburn University FSAE (http://eng.auburn.edu/organizations/SAE/AUFSAE)
5th Overall Detroit 2003
? Overall Aussie 2003. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[George]

Gug, yes exactly the same dyno. Both engines were F3's, as Sam said longer restrictor, 625mm primarys on the extractors, 4-2-1. Bigger injectors, those were the main changes.

Dyno is 1000hp, so we are a little out of its range. Both results are inertia corrected.

UQ Racing Team Leader 2003
www.uq.edu.au/fsae (http://www.uq.edu.au/fsae)

[Frank]

gug,

you're reading the lines the wrong way

12% extra power at top

none at 5k rpm

yes charlie, the "hole" at 7K was a worry.. LAST YEAR

George's comments about the "range" of the dyno are a bit controversial......

true the dyno is big.. Paul had to fiddle a bit with the valve and controller to get it to work..

I'm 100% confident in the results... flow bench agrees

reagrds all

Frank

[gug]

lol, im a dumbass. now that i have the correct lines, it looks much more likely. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

- if it isnt coming, you need a bigger tool.

[All Wheeler]

When we got our engine management system we had no base map for the F4i. Our engine guys tried making one themselves. They got the engine running (poorly) and in the process managed to burn out both the modules and ignition coils. This was getting very $$$$$$$. All we wanted was someone who could show us how to get the engine running without damaging it. I wonder if the other teams out there (who are swift to condemn others for using professional help) had a base map to run off when they got their engine management system! I can assure that the need for professional help does not = laziness. Anyhow, we now have no need for pro help. Cheers Charlie ;

[Frank]

All,

you just got to remember that the teams crying "lazy" are usually well established teams..

basically they've learnt from others in their team over the years, and have previous designs and their own documentation,

as a first year team it is inevitably hard, don't be embarrassed, ASK people who know what the heck they are doing for help

regards

Frank

[Charlie]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Frank:
you just got to remember that the teams crying "lazy" are usually well established teams..
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Or teams that have done it before the hard way, and can't believe other teams don't have to http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

You have a point though, we got help with our tuning too. I am always willing to help other teams out.

There is a BIG difference between getting help, and having someone else do the job-entirely.

-Charlie Ping
Auburn University FSAE (http://eng.auburn.edu/organizations/SAE/AUFSAE)
5th Overall Detroit 2003
? Overall Aussie 2003. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[All Wheeler]

Does anyone know if the power curve data given by Honda (ie. max power of 81kW) is measured at the fly wheel or the output spline of the gearbox. Also, any ideas on what the efficiency of the transmission would be. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Kevin Hall]

I have a dyno chart that shows the 99 F4 to have 77.8 kW. I would assume that is taken at the rear wheel. I would also assume that any Honda data should be from the spline, as it would be silly for them to be dynoing off the crank, and not have anything decent actually on the crank to mount a CVT or similar stuff. Or, maybe I'm crazy, and they do their best to crank up the numbers. 81 sounds like a spline number, being only 5% higher than the RWHP.

Kevin Hall
University of Saskatchewan
'03-'04 Team Director

[Akos]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Frank:
All,

you just got to remember that the teams crying "lazy" are usually well established teams..

basically they've learnt from others in their team over the years, and have previous designs and their own documentation,

as a first year team it is inevitably hard, don't be embarrassed, ASK people who know what the heck they are doing for help

regards

Frank<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Since I was one of the founders of the Toronto team, I guess before they got "lazy" and were helped to tune engines.

Engine maps are not magic. You can get pretty close with an excell spreadsheat and a calculator, especially ECUs with a 3d fuel map and MAP based load sensing.

If you can't figure out a base map, maybe you got too advanced of an ecu. I really don't think you need a motec box on a first year car. On our first year car I got an SDS ecu running on an engine with unknow injector size and power curve within couple of days.

The one thing that was always hard though, is to make it idle properly around 1500 rpms. It took me two years to get it right, I definetly could have used some pro help with it.

Poor teams can't afford a dyno. The engines on the Toronto cars for the past years were tuned on the track. It doesn't take that much. A daq and a cheap mixture definately help things.

Restrictor geometry and throttle body size shouldn't effect your engine map much (if you are using a map sensor). The two main things you have to worry about is injector flow rates and theoretical engine VE

Cheers,

Akos Toth
Data Engineer
Team Autotecnica

www.autotecnicagroup.com (http://www.autotecnicagroup.com)

[Sam Zimmerman]

It sounds like some people's feathers got a little ruffled concerning having a pro tuning an engine. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I think giving and receiving help is great, sharing knowledge benefits all of our education. Having professionals designing parts on a vehicle, tuning engines, etc., etc., helps nobody learn.

We are hardly a well established team, but we did have two guys slugging it out in the engine bay last year just to get our engine running. They got advice, but nobody did their work for them. This year's engine tuners are now in the engine bay with a new ECU trying to learn from the experiences of last year and trying to improve upon them Isn't that what engineering is about? Yeah it's tough, but if you wanted something easy you could have built a micro-baja. I know personally that there are people who post regularly on this board who will take the time out of their busy schedule to try their best to help you out.

Just my $.02

Sam Zimmerman
Vandals Racing (http://www.uidaho.edu/~racing)

[B Lewis @ PE Engine Management]

I've made the offer before and I will make it again. If anyone needs a little help with tuning an engine or just getting it to run, please don't hesitate to contact me, regardless of whose ECU you are using. We got our start with FSAE a long time ago and are well aware of the benefits of the competition. We've got a pretty good history with small and large engines and have probably seen most problems at least once - maybe more if I didn't quite learn my lesson the first time http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Brian Lewis
Performance Electronics, Ltd.
www.pe-ltd.com (http://www.pe-ltd.com)
"Complete Engine Management Systems"