Wheels!!!

[L.R. Weidner]

Colorado State University is looking for some wheel alternatives because of the various (and common from what I understand) problems with Keizer wheels. I have been trying to contact Monocoque for the past two weeks, but have had no success. Have they gone out of buisness?

I know that about 80% of teams use the Keizers because of their price and weight, but I'm wondering if anyone uses Circle Racing or Watanabe's?

Thanks,
Lucas Weidner
Colorado State University

[L.R. Weidner]

Colorado State University is looking for some wheel alternatives because of the various (and common from what I understand) problems with Keizer wheels. I have been trying to contact Monocoque for the past two weeks, but have had no success. Have they gone out of buisness?

I know that about 80% of teams use the Keizers because of their price and weight, but I'm wondering if anyone uses Circle Racing or Watanabe's?

Thanks,
Lucas Weidner
Colorado State University

[Richard Lewis]

We're in the same boat... let us know what you find and we'll do the same. Right now we are looking at panasport ultra lights...

-------------------------
UVIC Formula SAE Team
http://members.shaw.ca/drax77/UVICFSAEcar.jpg
http://www.engr.uvic.ca/~fsae

[zorr0]

We had the same problems with the Keizers and are looking at Kodiak Motorsports and BBS. Let us know what you find. Specifically, if anyone has had bad experiences with any of these companies as far as quality or delivery on time, please post it.

http://www.auburn.edu/~zornmat/eagleside.jpg

http://www.auburn.edu/~zornmat/pics/img_0399.jpg]

[David Money]

You could always do what Arlington did and make your own ultra lightweight Carbon Fiber rims from scratch.

Another ,although expensive, option is to get custom machined wheels from a shop such as Precision Machine.

[L.R. Weidner]

Just to close this thread out, we went with the BBS wheels. Good luck to all.

[pheyden]

New to the forum. Just what were the problems with Keizer wheels?

[BMH]

Anyone know where I can find info or tips regarding making CF wheels? We were planning on trying to make wheel halves out of CF (basically a replica of the Keizer's, but only in CF), and using Keizer Wheel centers, or make our own if we have time.

[PatClarke]

Why, exactly, would you want carbonfibre wheels ?? http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Pat

[Ben A]

Perhaps there stiffer and lighter then normal AL rims or?

Is anyone happy with the Keizer Rims?
How much are the rims around?
How much is the weight of 13x7" Rims around?

What about "Braid" Formrace Wheels?

[whiltebeitel]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by pheyden:
New to the forum. Just what were the problems with Keizer wheels? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Keizer used to supply wheels with 1/8" thick, flat aluminum centers. These did not have a whole lot of bending stiffness relative to the current 1"+ thick magnesium centers, or their billet aluminum centers they sell now.

We use Keizers for out 10" wheels in FH and we use Keizer wheels and barrels for all the previous 13" whelks we have, as far as I know.

When designing CF barrels, consider that the tire mounting forces are pretty harsh on the lips of the wheels. UTA designed and builds their own CF barrels and aluminum centers. They had to do a lot of re-design and testing to ensure the tire machine (user) did not wreck the barrels.

[PatClarke]

Quote BenA 'Perhaps there stiffer and lighter then normal AL rims or?"

Because we are all optimists on here, we tend to see only the positive things.

But think about all the reasons you shouldn't choose carbonbfibre rims.
Especially on a car that is supposed to be a prototype for production.
Especially on a project where every team is time and financially limited.
Especially on a car where one might want to change tyres occasionally.

Sure carbonfibre is a wonderful material, stiff and light and one of the great developments in the last 50 years, I love it.....But, is it 'Fit for purpose' in the FSAE competitions.

Be ready to debate that subject with the Design Judges.

Cheers

Pat

[Ben A]

@Pat the was the answer i want to hear ;-)

Thanks

[JT A.]

In the pro-carbon fiber wheels argument...

They are awesome and everybody asks about them

Carbon fiber is free if you ask the right people nicely.

We're not really designing cars to be mass produced. We're getting the once in a lifetime chance to make a racecar as awesome as we can possibly make it with someone else's money.

The thought of spending more real-life money on aluminum wheels to make our racecar slower, just so it appears cheaper on an imaginary cost report, when we could make much lighter CF wheels for free, is ridiculous.

And we change tires frequently, with that god awful manual lever contraption and tire machines. Never damaged a rim, even ones that have been in use several years.

[Wesley]

You may get carbon fiber for free, but do you get machine time, machining foam or other mold/buck material for free, a oven/autoclave for free,

Most of all, can you get that much time for free from a teammate without taking it away from other systems/manufacturing? It isn't as simple as making a mold in CAD and popping out a few shells. There are teams that have looked into the subject extensively - who DO have free carbon fiber, and who still decide buying "slower" aluminum wheels is a better alternative because they work.

"They are awesome and everybody asks about them"

Yes, including the design judges. These people represent the fields you want to go into - if you cannot explain your designs to them beyond "they R shiny lol," why would a potential employer want to hire you?

If you think the competition is about building a racecar without paying for it, your intentions within the competition are misguided I feel. This is an opportunity to learn engineering, project and team management, budgeting and scheduling, and logistics on a scale not available anywhere else in education.

You can get materials donated. You can't get an understanding capable of making a design that will work donated. They are a very hefty time/manpower investment.

[JT A.]

"You may get carbon fiber for free, but do you get machine time, machining foam or other mold/buck material for free, a oven/autoclave for free"

Mostly yes. Foam is free but we have to pay shipping. I guess we had to buy the aluminum we machined for the wheel mold a few years ago but we have been used that one wheel mold to make a lot of wheels.

Most of all, can you get that much time for free from a teammate without taking it away from other systems/manufacturing?

Depending on yearly participation, usually yes. We teach the process to underclassmen since they aren't designing anything else. It takes a few hours of an experienced team members time for instruction but other than that it doesn't affect other systems.

"Yes, including the design judges. These people represent the fields you want to go into - if you cannot explain your designs to them beyond "they R shiny lol," why would a potential employer want to hire you?"

This year they didn't really ask us much about them other than how we make them and how much they weight. If they asked us to justify them over aluminum, we would explain that they are durable, lighter than any aluminum wheel we can buy, we have the resources to make them, and we are willing to take the hit on cost report.

"If you think the competition is about building a racecar without paying for it, your intentions within the competition are misguided I feel. This is an opportunity to learn engineering, project and team management, budgeting and scheduling, and logistics on a scale not available anywhere else in education."

You're probably right about my intentions, but not necessarily my team as a whole. Incidentally our carbon fiber wheels were designed and used because a student took an interest in composite structures and wanted a project to learn more about them and apply what he learned, and get hands on experience. Which is, as you just said, what this competition is supposed to be about. He now works in the composites industry.

[Schmidt]

I don't agree with "carbon fiber rims are just shiny and have no place in FS".
It is true that it can cause you new problems, but that is the case with everything that you will produce in-house instead of buying. These are all problems you can overcome, and learn from!
I have to admit, we tried full carbon rims. Those were less than successful, so they never made it to competition. However we have been using carbon fiber shells successfully for many, many years.
They were initially developed because it used to be really difficult to get adequate 10" rims in Europe.
I know it is a tricky statement, but from what I have seen I am going to say that the stiffness of the shell in practice is not as important as you'd think without experience. That means that a really thin laminate can already be sufficient (strength wise).
We have phased out our 2006/2007 rims last year. Our last cars have done over 1000km of testing each, so that tells you something about the fatigue.
Finally, what makes the biggest fan of these things is that I can make one shell every 2 days (vacuum infusion), including prepping and cleaning.
Then comes the dependability on the sponsors.

Developing a full carbon rim, especially with no experience (knowing potential problems) is very hard. Especially because ordering the (expensive) molds is very definite for your entire design.

So all things considered, at least the carbon fiber shells are very effective in my opinion.

[RobbyObby]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JT A.:
They are awesome and everybody asks about them

Carbon fiber is free if you ask the right people nicely.

We're not really designing cars to be mass produced. We're getting the once in a lifetime chance to make a racecar as awesome as we can possibly make it with someone else's money.

The thought of spending more real-life money on aluminum wheels to make our racecar slower, just so it appears cheaper on an imaginary cost report, when we could make much lighter CF wheels for free, is ridiculous.

And we change tires frequently, with that god awful manual lever contraption and tire machines. Never damaged a rim, even ones that have been in use several years. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Excuse my rant, but you've obviously never been in a Design event or talked to any Design judge at competition. Any one of those remarks is a sure fire red flag in the minds of the judges. Go ahead and make those arguments to a judge and then come back and tell me that you still feel the same way.

[Kwheels]

I am not sure exactly sure what problems you are having but without communication with us we cannot help rectify or improve the product or rectify the problem. In 2012 we currently have a number of new options for 10" and 13" wheels. Including new centers and rubber gaskets for those teams that cant seam to keep a screw driver out of the seal. Downloads are available on the website.

When you work with as many teams as we do its hard to make 100% of your clients happy. But we try!

Wade Huisman
Keizer Aluminum Wheels Inc.
Phone 712-737-3053
fax 712-737-3055
kaw@mtcnet.net
cell 712-441-5390
www.keizerwheels.com (http://www.keizerwheels.com)

"the lightest wheels in racing"

[Mike Cook]

I like seals.

[Mike Cook]

Oh, and I have dogged Keizer in the past. But I think there wheels have come a long way in the last 6 years, and think they offer a good product for the money. I remember in 2006 when we bent 3 brand new rims in one day. But since using their rims in 2010 and 2011, we have had very little problems. They are relatively cheap, lightweight, and Wade is very willing to help.

[cvargas]

What would be some arguments for CFRP wheel shells other than the obvious lighter, stiffer, don't fatigue. They typically cost more, take longer to develop, and manufacture. So how would you justify those three draw backs to the benefits? Would you have to use some kind of model to prove that the costs out weigh the benefits or would you just use accurate testing methods to prove it?

[Tim.Wright]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JT A.:
We teach the process to underclassmen since they aren't designing anything else. It takes a few hours of an experienced team members time for instruction but other than that it doesn't affect other systems. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you would let a new member design composite wheels after a few hours of instruction from an experienced team member (i.e. unqualified engineer) then you obviously don't value your life very much.

Tim

[kcapitano]

It seems to me that those in favour of using carbon fibre wheels have already been doing so for some time. They have already developed ways of producing them quickly and efficiently and have reliable sponsors on board. The problem with this attitude is 90% of the design work has already been done, all that's left is testing and tuning. I would be surprised if any of the teams running CF rims were able to use the first set they produced. They probably took well over a year to design and another year to bring the finished product up to quality standards.

I'm not saying CF rims are a bad idea, in fact I think they are great. I will however support those teams who are opposed. The amount of work to design them correctly, from scratch, is probably not worth it.

I apologize for continuing this tangent, but I have to say this. IMO most of the CF and other high tech components we, yes myself included, put on these cars is a little absurd. We are supposed to be designing cars for the non-professional weekend autocrosser. Someone who is probably on a budget, and will most likely crash into something eventually. If your car has a CF monocoque, and you crash, the whole chassis now has to be tossed, rather than fixed overnight in your garage with a welder and some power tools.

[JT A.]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by kcapitano:
It seems to me that those in favour of using carbon fibre wheels have already been doing so for some time. They have already developed ways of producing them quickly and efficiently and have reliable sponsors on board. The problem with this attitude is 90% of the design work has already been done, all that's left is testing and tuning. I would be surprised if any of the teams running CF rims were able to use the first set they produced. They probably took well over a year to design and another year to bring the finished product up to quality standards.

I'm not saying CF rims are a bad idea, in fact I think they are great. I will however support those teams who are opposed. The amount of work to design them correctly, from scratch, is probably not worth it.

I apologize for continuing this tangent, but I have to say this. IMO most of the CF and other high tech components we, yes myself included, put on these cars is a little absurd. We are supposed to be designing cars for the non-professional weekend autocrosser. Someone who is probably on a budget, and will most likely crash into something eventually. If your car has a CF monocoque, and you crash, the whole chassis now has to be tossed, rather than fixed overnight in your garage with a welder and some power tools. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You've got a good point, but on another tangent I really dislike the whole "weekend autocrosser" line in the rulebook. It just adds more room for subjectiveness in design judging and makes teams compromise between designing for the stated intent of the competition, and designing to win the competition.

We've had judges tell us multiple years that they don't like the fact that our design is more suited for faster SCCA style tracks...which 1)goes against the stated intent of the competition, and 2)is an incorrect assumption because we are a consistent top 5 finisher and occasional winner in SAE autocrosses.

If this competition really was to build the best weekend autocross car, it would have two events; autocross, and cost (cost being modified to include maintenance). What autocrosser gives a shit about fuel economy for a car that drives less than 5 minutes a weekend? Or sales presentations? Autocross cars advertise themselves by winning autocrosses.

That issue has been bugging our team for a while so last year we basically said screw cost event, screw fuel economy, screw everything except making the fastest racecar. We did kind of design with SCCA autocrosses in mind, but only because we actually do them, not because the rules say it. But anyways, sorry for the tangent.

[cvargas]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by kcapitano:
It seems to me that those in favour of using carbon fibre wheels have already been doing so for some time. They have already developed ways of producing them quickly and efficiently and have reliable sponsors on board. The problem with this attitude is 90% of the design work has already been done, all that's left is testing and tuning. I would be surprised if any of the teams running CF rims were able to use the first set they produced. They probably took well over a year to design and another year to bring the finished product up to quality standards.

I'm not saying CF rims are a bad idea, in fact I think they are great. I will however support those teams who are opposed. The amount of work to design them correctly, from scratch, is probably not worth it.

I apologize for continuing this tangent, but I have to say this. IMO most of the CF and other high tech components we, yes myself included, put on these cars is a little absurd. We are supposed to be designing cars for the non-professional weekend autocrosser. Someone who is probably on a budget, and will most likely crash into something eventually. If your car has a CF monocoque, and you crash, the whole chassis now has to be tossed, rather than fixed overnight in your garage with a welder and some power tools. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is one argument that I seem to keep getting into with a few of my teammates. "Innovation" vs. "It ain't broke." We go back and forth between this competition is about coming up with innovative ideas vs keeping the car as simple as possible and keeping it reliable. I guess it really boils down to how many dedicated people you have, how much money and time you have, and is saving 5 to 10lbs of rotating mass that important.

[Big Mo]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by pheyden:
New to the forum. Just what were the problems with Keizer wheels? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm gonna go ahead and tip-toe over the CF wheel debate...

Keizers used to be floppy. But, like Mike said, they make a great product at the right price point. Also, I'm not sure if it was Wade, but someone from Keizer posted some stiffness numbers in another thread...

[Adambomb]

Big Mo is right. Look back to around 2004, and Keizer used to offer wheel centers that were formed sheets of Al. They looked like this:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/9030_692786044220_16912542_41447790_4022004_n.jpg

They were pretty and very lightweight, but ridiculously compliant. We had imprints of our hubs rubbed into them after a relatively small amount of run-time. Since something like 2006 or so they've only offered ones that look like this:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/37502_771765523710_16912542_44074449_1631143_n.jpg

...in either Al or Mg. They are a bit heavier, but a ton stiffer.

[rrobb]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JT A.:
We've had judges tell us multiple years that they don't like the fact that our design is more suited for faster SCCA style tracks...which 1)goes against the stated intent of the competition, and 2)is an incorrect assumption because we are a consistent top 5 finisher and occasional winner in SAE autocrosses.

If this competition really was to build the best weekend autocross car, it would have two events; autocross, and cost (cost being modified to include maintenance). What autocrosser gives a shit about fuel economy for a car that drives less than 5 minutes a weekend? Or sales presentations? Autocross cars advertise themselves by winning autocrosses.

That issue has been bugging our team for a while so last year we basically said screw cost event, screw fuel economy, screw everything except making the fastest racecar. We did kind of design with SCCA autocrosses in mind, but only because we actually do them, not because the rules say it. But anyways, sorry for the tangent. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I chime in with the perspective of a weekend autocrosser.
A little background: The only reason I'm on this site is because I'm an autocrosser who wants to set FTD at Lincoln (or wherever Nationals is held by the time I'm able to make it happen) some day, and you guys are the most concise source of information on building vehicles capable of that.

I agree with everything I just quoted, but would like to mention that CF wheels are probably not a good idea for the weekend racer.
We don't usually mount our own tires and often drop them off with some tire monkey (no offense intended) and pick them up when they are done.
Also, with the exception of FSAE cars, which are specificly excluded, the SCCA requires all wheels to be made of metalic substances.
Now if someone were to get some surplus AlBeMet...

Ha, Ha, yeah right.