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Paul Dansereau
02-11-2003, 10:29 AM
Hi All,
I'm sure that NOBODY has ever cheated on the weigh in.... but at the same time I (like some others) would like to make sure of this. I was just wondering what others would think if (like at most other racing events) there was a weigh in as you left the endurance.

Paul Dansereau
02-11-2003, 10:29 AM
Hi All,
I'm sure that NOBODY has ever cheated on the weigh in.... but at the same time I (like some others) would like to make sure of this. I was just wondering what others would think if (like at most other racing events) there was a weigh in as you left the endurance.

Charlie
02-11-2003, 12:02 PM
Since there is not a minimum weight, and weight is not directly an influence on score I don't see the point. What would be the penalty? They already have the random weigh-in to keep everyone fairly honest.

-Charlie Ping
Auburn University FSAE 1999-present

James Waltman
02-11-2003, 03:27 PM
Sorry - I double posted somehow.

James

James Waltman
02-11-2003, 03:27 PM
Why do you have a concern? How can you cheat at weigh in if there are no weight rules?

I can't think of anything that we could ditch for the endurance - if it isn't critical (to rules or function/performance) then it has no place on our car.

I think that there should be some inspection to make sure that everything required by the rules is still on the car at the end of the endurance but if there are no weight rules then who cares how much you weigh at the end of the endurance?

James Waltman
waltmaj@cc.wwu.edu
http://dot.etec.wwu.edu/fsae/
Formula SAE
Vehicle Research Institute at
Western Washington University

Scott Wordley
02-11-2003, 05:04 PM
I've mentioned this idea to quite a few people in the past.

In terms of the Australian competition I think this year is the first time the cars have been officially weighed. Because it hasn't been done in the past (and teams realise that) just about everyone seemed to be underestimating their weight to the judges just because everyone else was. And we all know that weight is a single, big, over-simplified metric that judges may like to use to in the place of more detailled judgement, so best not be the only team to be honest.

I'm quite sure most of the top teams "cheat" or bend the rules on the Friday of design judging and before weigh in. In fact I'm pretty sure I have photographic evidence of one team in particular turning up on Friday with for example an extremely small(useless) thermo fan with no shrouding. Team says to judges "Our cooling system is super light and so well designed thats all we need" Judges nod and think "if Team X can get away with it then everyone else is overdesigned". Same team rocks up to the enduro with much bigger fan and shroud and bracketry etc, at least 5 times the weight. And thats just one example, I took photos on the Friday and a friend took very similar photos of the same(?) car on Sunday. Play spot the difference.

Weigh all cars with water, oil and after refuelling after the enduro. If the weight information is going to be used in any way by the judges it should at least be consistent and comparable.

Regards,

Scott Wordley & Roan Lyddy Meaney
Monash FSAE Wingmen
http://www-personal.monash.edu.au/~fsae

U of S Engine
02-11-2003, 05:04 PM
Well, what I think the concern here is with, is teams weighing in dry, with empty engines and diff cases, and so on for design. If there is a 500 lb "unwritten rule", a 520lb car could easily shed 50lb to make it through design, and then rebuild overnight into race gear.....

If there was a weigh in after endurance, it would standardize the equipment that is on the car........and would guarantee that it is drivable, whereas in design, the car can't be started and driven to "show" the judges how it works..

Just my $.02

Kevin Hall
University of Saskatchewan
Engine Guy
www.engr.usask.ca/~formula (http://www.engr.usask.ca/~formula)

Angry Joe
02-11-2003, 08:14 PM
This brings up another dilemma. We have an entire spare drivetrain that we can swap into our 2003 car if necessary, but it is much heavier than the drivetrain we're running now (the drivetrain is an old one that we had lying around). If we were to go through design, snap an axle in acceleration and replace the drivetrain, we'd have a car that is around 15 lbs heavier after the endurance. Are there any provisions for emergency repairs in the FSAE Australia rules?

Lehigh Formula SAE

www.lehigh.edu/~insae/formula (http://www.lehigh.edu/~insae/formula)

Charlie
02-11-2003, 09:41 PM
Does nobody remember the new rule last year, where cars were randomly weighed and if you were a certain number over your 'no-fuel' weigh-in (I think it was 20 lb) you were severely penalized?

-Charlie Ping
Auburn University FSAE 1999-present

Scott Wordley
02-11-2003, 10:27 PM
There are no provisions or rules at all regarding weight and repairs in Australia. The judges understand that we'll do anything to keep our cars on track. Our competition is much more relaxed and informal than the US, with around 20 teams we can afford to be. While I think this is a good thing, it does allow well organised teams to take advantage of the situation. The level of deviousness on the part of teams will be directly proportional to how important the judges think vehicle weight is.

Regards,

Scott Wordley & Roan Lyddy Meaney
Monash FSAE Wingmen
http://www-personal.monash.edu.au/~fsae

John Gregor
02-12-2003, 12:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
I'm quite sure most of the top teams "cheat" or bend the rules on the Friday of design judging and before weigh in. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is a pretty big statement. I hope you aren't doing law.

Do you consider yourselves a top team, if so is this an admission of guilt. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

shiny side up!
02-12-2003, 12:53 AM
There was a team that finished in the top 5 overall at FSAE Detroit in 2002 that got re-weighed later after skidpad, and was 20.1 lbs over their official weigh in. The team knew they hadn't cheated however, and after much head scratching, it was found that the change came from the fact that they had weighed in on old, bald tires (same wheels) that they used to roll around in the paddock with. Once the source of the weight difference was determined, they did not get penalized because they had not been trying to cheat the rules.

This year, lets put the engine back up front where it belongs!!

Bam Bam
02-12-2003, 09:17 AM
To cheat on the weigh in this year we've got the best strategy

DESIGN A LIGHT CAR AND BE DONE WITH IT. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

If your car is heavy it's cause you spent too much time on message boards whining that every one is cheating and too little time designing testing and building.

If you have to cheat to get your car below 500 it's cause your car needs more work.

Now shut up, and get workin.

King Missile
02-12-2003, 01:33 PM
The Cal Poly 2000 car was around 650lbs. We took 3rd overall. Yes our car was overbuilt. Last time I checked, though, the cars are designed for "the weekend autocrosser." It makes good business sence to overbuild your product, especially a new product. Get the word out that the car is tough, limiting downtime and making for easier turnaround between events (Last time I checked the 2000 car is still making monthly trips to Solo2s). If you bend/break something on the car due to a cone strike, is the car really built to the spirit of the rules?

As for weighing the cars after the endurance. Why? If a team's gonna cheat, let them. They have to live with themselves. Besides if you do get a job based on your FSAE experience it will be on what YOU learned, not how YOUR TEAM did.

Cheers

Where are we going? And why are we in this handbasket?!

U of S Engine
02-12-2003, 02:34 PM
Just to clarify things, we've never had a sub-500 lb car. Our rookie car was 630, and our 2nd try came in at 570. After significant redesign (frame that doesn't weigh 100lbs) we should be a lot better this year. The idea wasn't to point fingers, but rather to see if anyone else disliked the possibility of this happening. Happy building http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Kevin Hall
University of Saskatchewan
Engine Guy
www.engr.usask.ca/~formula (http://www.engr.usask.ca/~formula)

Angry Joe
02-12-2003, 08:24 PM
I agree that teams do push the limit too far. When your A-arms can't take cone hits I don't think your car qualifies as a weekend toy.

My advisor really pissed me off by saying that in his opinion, the ideal car would last the duration of the competition - and then fall apart. Unfortunately there's no easy way to stop this without specifying a minimum weight.

That said I think our car is sufficiently durable, and if all goes as planned it will be under 500 lbs.

Lehigh Formula SAE

www.lehigh.edu/~insae/formula (http://www.lehigh.edu/~insae/formula)

Schumi_Jr
02-13-2003, 08:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> My advisor really pissed me off by saying that in his opinion, the ideal car would last the duration of the competition - and then fall apart. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think I've heard a certain Colin Chapman say that before...

Aaron Johnston
University of Waterloo FSAE

www.eng.uwaterloo.ca/~fsae (http://www.eng.uwaterloo.ca/~fsae)

James Waltman
02-13-2003, 10:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Angry Joe:
Unfortunately there's no easy way to stop this without specifying a minimum weight.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Minimum weight is not directly related to durability. Specifying a minimum weight will not increase durability. Even if you use a steel space frame and steel A-arms it is entirely possible to have a heavy car that is not durable. You could easily build a 900-pound car that had fragile A-arms. We have had cars that are very durable and very light. Admittedly we use alternative materials, fabrication, and assembly processes. But to penalize teams that have reduced weight is just wrong. Teams with cars that break during the endurance are penalized sufficiently.

I don't agree with it but I think that it was Henry Ford that said: If it never breaks during service then it was overbuilt.

James Waltman
waltmaj@cc.wwu.edu
http://dot.etec.wwu.edu/fsae/
Formula SAE
Vehicle Research Institute at
Western Washington University