UMR Video?

[Mike Cook]

I do say, bad ass.
video (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5115815822212049436&q=umr+fsae&pl=true)

any comments?

[Mike Cook]

I do say, bad ass.
video (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5115815822212049436&q=umr+fsae&pl=true)

any comments?

[absolutepressure]

Tight.

[andyman61]

video of same car with and without wings (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3447210153109566987&q=umr+fsae&pl=true)

and people still ask if the aero package works. granted our courses are slower, but i'll let you be the judge.

[Mike Cook]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">]

granted our courses are slower, </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

anyways, hopw fast were you going...looked to be pretty damn fast, 110?

[Bill Kunst]

If you pay close attention to the tires, you can see cool things. On the straights you can see the car only rides on 1/3 to 1/2 the tire, in the long sweepers it slowly shows wearing across the tread. I noticed this in one of the latter sweeping left handers. Looks like you have the camber dialed in.
Good luck,
Bill

[kwancho]

Great videos! Thanks.

[terra_dactile]

andrew,
obviously their can be a gain in certian cases with an aero package, but the back to back test you did seem to be biased toward the aero package,
correct me if im wrong but your damping changes signifacently because of the wings, so therefore with out the wings it would be not ideal for racing conditions,

Anyway you look at it, the car handles great, look forward to seeing you & your teams car at comp,

Jude Berthault
ETS FSAE 2003-Current
Steering & Brake System Leader

[andyman61]

actually that video is from an alumni of the team with one of the mid or late 90's cars he bought from the team. he added his own wings after he bought it.

this definately isn't a fair comparison between a car with and without aero, like you said. obviously you'd want a stiffer set-up with the wings on the car. i don't know whether the car was adjusted for this or not. it's just interesting to see that the differences side by side. the main thing i noticed was that the car seems much more stable with the aero (something i've noticed as well having driven both our aero and non-aero cars).

it's just too bad we don't have more 80 mph sweepers in detroit... http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[mtg]

The car in the video is the '98 car, owned and driven by Anthony Salinas.

A few years back, Anthony visited Rolla, drove an aero car and said something along the lines of "I need wings on my car, pronto"

[drivetrainUW-Platt]

looks like the non winged car isn't that far behind, and so what if its faster at 90mph, won't ever see that at a FSAE event....

[Mexellent]

One could just as easily argue that youre not going to see straights like that in competition either. It appears to me that thats where the car without wings made up all its time.

We took our 05 car and ran it in the 1998 endurance track. With wings and undertray we were significantly faster than without wings and with undertray. 1.5 seconds, if my memory serves me right.

The nice thing about our 05 car is its SO forgiving. Especially at higher speeds (40-50mph). There have been times when I have made errors and the tail slides out just a tad, and you dont have to worry about it at all. You just keep your foot planted and your steering wheel pointed where you want to go and let the aero sort it out. Its effect is rather understated when you go below 30 but once you start getting up to speed, youll definitely know its there.

[fsae racer]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mexellent:
One could just as easily argue that youre not going to see straights like that in competition either. It appears to me that thats where the car without wings made up all its time.

We took our 05 car and ran it in the 1998 endurance track. With wings and undertray we were significantly faster than without wings and with undertray. 1.5 seconds, if my memory serves me right.

The nice thing about our 05 car is its SO forgiving. Especially at higher speeds (40-50mph). There have been times when I have made errors and the tail slides out just a tad, and you dont have to worry about it at all. You just keep your foot planted and your steering wheel pointed where you want to go and let the aero sort it out. Its effect is rather understated when you go below 30 but once you start getting up to speed, youll definitely know its there. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The sideslip that occurs when the tail slides out doesnt reduce the downforce from before it slid out and cause an instability?

Sweet video, I only wish it was on a slower course so I could have more competition like data to base my opinion.

[Mexellent]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fsae racer:

The sideslip that occurs when the tail slides out doesnt reduce the downforce from before it slid out and cause an instability?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats an excellent question. I have no idea. =P Ill see if i can get our aero guy to give you an answer. But what I can tell you is that the car is extremely predictable even if you push it over the edge.

oh yeah, that is a sweet video UMR. I wish we had a cool track like that around here in texas.

[PatClarke]

Mmmmmmm, and you guys wonder why the rulemakers are under pressure to put the drivers feet behind the front axle line?
Pat

[fade]

would they change the course dimensions to accomidate the longer wheelbase or force everyone to run sidecar with the motor

[John_Burford]

A formula SAE car on this type of track is rare. And those who would put a FSAE car on a full road race course should be aware of the personal risk they are taking. But I don't think the rules of the competition should be changed based on the odd possibility that someone puts a FSAE car on road course.

On the flip side of that argument, I know that the design judges don't award any points to teams that design FSAE cars that are more robust, and were designed with the intention of running at faster more punishing venues.

John Burford

[drivetrainUW-Platt]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by John_Burford:


On the flip side of that argument, I know that the design judges don't award any points to teams that design FSAE cars that are more robust, and were designed with the intention of running at faster more punishing venues.

John Burford </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

good, thats not part of the competition, if teams want to put resources in wings and what not for other events cool, but I dont see how they can justify the cost if they arent even used in the competition's courses....they do make the car look soooo bitchin thou(UTA)

[B Hise]

While aero (arguably) offers minimal gains in our competitions, almost every other serious racing series requires design and/or analysis with regard to aerodynamics. It would behoove anyone who wants to move forward in a racing career to study this in college. Im not going to ramble on about tradeoffs, but you should get the picture.

my $.02

Bryan

[PedalOnTheRight]

nevermind....!

[Bryan Hagenauer]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fsae racer:
The sideslip that occurs when the tail slides out doesnt reduce the downforce from before it slid out and cause an instability?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Quite possibly true, but I am of the opinion (from feeling the effects) that the yaw damping of the endplates has a far greater effect than the lost df. Along with the damping, is the "fin" effect. The center of area of an aero car is far behind the CG, so anytime the car is sideways it will try and right itself, like a missile with fins. Along with the same theory, huge endplates in the front may cause some amount of understeer.

I am suprised that UTA notices this, as their endplates are tiny. Just imagine how much it does on our cars http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Marshall Grice]

I would argue that our cars are spin proof with the wings on. although some of the rookies may prove me wrong.

[mtg]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Marshall Grice:
I would argue that our cars are spin proof with the wings on. although some of the rookies may prove me wrong. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've seen wind do some pretty crazy things to aero cars before. I drove an autocross a couple years ago in one of the aero UMR cars with a 180 degree corner in high winds. It was a tailwind on entry, headwind on exit. There was just about no downforce at turn in, but as soon as the car was yawed into the wind, it was full throttle time.

Don't side winds make your car pretty easy to spin with the huge rear endplates? At SCCA Nationals in '03, UTA's car almost rolled over from looked like a contribution of side wind with the then large rear endplates.

[Kyle Walther]

i remember in the summer of 2004 (i think) UMR flipped in topeka on a windy day. i don't know if it was the wind or the massive canyons in the concrete that got them upside down.

[KevinD]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mtg:
Don't side winds make your car pretty easy to spin with the huge rear endplates? At SCCA Nationals in '03, UTA's car almost rolled over from looked like a contribution of side wind with the then large rear endplates. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

this was due to a number of things actually, the least of which being the size of the sideplates and cross winds.

the floating undertray on the 03 car caused a rather undesirable effect of a high CG. in order to get the legal suspension travel, the chassis had to have a pretty good clearance over the undertray to give that travel. also, because the aero was unsuspended, the wheel rates were rather low in my opinion. this causes considerable body roll in turns, granted the suspension was designed for it (and it shows because the cars grip really well even with the inside tires off the ground). last, the track width was rather narrow on the 03 car, and they have been getting wider to counter the inside tire lift seen.

[John_Burford]

KevinD

Don't forget to mention how many G's were being pulled at the time. I'll leave you the honors. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

John Burford

[kwancho]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Marshall Grice:
I would argue that our cars are spin proof with the wings on. although some of the rookies may prove me wrong. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Although, clearly, the car is so unstable when the wings rip off, that the driver spins immediately. I still have that video somewhere....

[KevinD]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by John_Burford:
KevinD

Don't forget to mention how many G's were being pulled at the time. I'll leave you the honors. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

John Burford </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

not as many as we are pulling this year http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif