Formula Student UK 2006 Competition: - Updates, Pictures, Stories, and More. [Archive]

Big Bird

07-06-2006, 09:12 PM

Thanks for the update Ben,

I'm amused to hear that you Poms are persisting with that liquid sunshine each summer. I guess there is less chance of sunburn than with our version http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I'm sorry to hear that the education system is being called into question again, but it seems every year magazine coverage of FStudent raises this very issue. At risk of creating a monster here, I can't help questioning whether the concentration of high-level motorsport in the UK is actually having a detrimental effect in this particular instance, by biasing perspectives at an academic level towards high-tech detail design rather than concentration on basics.

I remember from a couple of years ago that there was this general feeling around the pits that to be truly competitive you had to have lots of trick stuff and alliances with major motorsport suppliers to get anywhere. You could read this in the demeanour of a lot of the teams. At one end of the scale there were those that were going to blow everyone way (because they had so many hp, or magnesium uprights made at such-and-such a supplier, or electro-hydro-pnuematic gearshift etc etc). Then at the opposite end of the scale quite a number of teams moaning that they could never possibly compete against all those name teams with their big budgets and industry support. I won't tar everyone with the same brush here - but there did seem to be a lot more of that "this is high-level motorsport" mentality than at other events I've been to.

And of course the risk of falling into that trap is that the focus is placed on high science - whereby the fundamentals like brake & electrical routing, ergonomics & pedal tray design, and good load paths are overlooked in the pursuit of trickery.

There is a chance you might all interpret my comments above as an unqualified bagging. I truly hope not, I am only offering my observations on something that I thought was a bit of a cultural difference between events, and I'd love to hear feedback from those "at the coalface" so to speak.

Cheers all, and good luck at the event

ben

07-06-2006, 10:11 PM

As ever Geoff had it pretty spot on. That was the reason for my "good load paths are free" comment. It doesn't matter if you haven't got a lot of trick stuff if pickups miss nodes by 50mm plus.

Classic yesterday was a team that had all four rockers mounted (single-shear) in the centre of unsupported tubes and the shocks then in single shear on bolts sticking out of the same tube nowhere near a node.

NB - we don't feel like we want to ask about fundamental knowledge when it's visibly clear there the basics have been missed.

The biggest problem for me is academics in the UK looking down their noses at the competition as if it's not scientific enough. Student who don't have the backing of a good faculty advisor will struggle. This applies to most of the FS teams in the UK from what I can see.

Once again Oxford Brookes is the exception and they of course have Howard Ash as advisor who knows what it takes to win in this event and also the benefits of participating.

Gotta go.

Ben

Kyle Walther

07-07-2006, 09:53 AM

just as a visitor I'm really impressed with the layout of the paddock. It's a little crowded but it gives it such a neat atmosphere. i felt like i was walking through a shopping mall.

I also liked the dynamic event announcers. I wish they would interview students after a run in Detroit.

i have a favor to ask. Does anyone staying at the Leicester uni dorms have a couple of empty seats in their car? Nick Roberts and I don't have a ride to the event Saturday. It would be much appreciated if you could help us out. I'll be the tall lanky kid in a red sooner racing jacket begging people for a ride tomorrow at breakfast. thanks.

Kyle Walther
University of Oklahoma

Henrik Andersson

07-07-2006, 12:53 PM

I am following the competition from a distance this year, in contrary to last year when I was at FS.

Could anyone be so kind and give us others an update on today's events, please. The official pages are really in need for some updates.

Which teams made it to design finals, electronics, composite prize etc. What are the results from acceleration and so on ?

Great to see that the competition is getting better for each year. From what I have seen, the Graz car is really impressing. They seem like a big contender for the overall as well as a lot of the other prizes. Can't wait to see that car at FSG2006 in august.

Chris23

07-07-2006, 01:05 PM

I heard that Graz won the Acc. Event with 3.97 s

Don't know other results (so far)

rainRANA

07-07-2006, 02:39 PM

Hey guys at the competition. Some pics and more results please. I would love to be out there.
Unfortunately after study life cought me....

Cheers Rainer

Â´00-04 Lions Racing Team member
TU Braunschweig

07-07-2006, 11:08 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Big Bird:
Thanks for the update Ben,

I'm amused to hear that you Poms are persisting with that liquid sunshine each summer. I guess there is less chance of sunburn than with our version http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I'm sorry to hear that the education system is being called into question again, but it seems every year magazine coverage of FStudent raises this very issue. At risk of creating a monster here, I can't help questioning whether the concentration of high-level motorsport in the UK is actually having a detrimental effect in this particular instance, by biasing perspectives at an academic level towards high-tech detail design rather than concentration on basics.

I remember from a couple of years ago that there was this general feeling around the pits that to be truly competitive you had to have lots of trick stuff and alliances with major motorsport suppliers to get anywhere. You could read this in the demeanour of a lot of the teams. At one end of the scale there were those that were going to blow everyone way (because they had so many hp, or magnesium uprights made at such-and-such a supplier, or electro-hydro-pnuematic gearshift etc etc). Then at the opposite end of the scale quite a number of teams moaning that they could never possibly compete against all those name teams with their big budgets and industry support. I won't tar everyone with the same brush here - but there did seem to be a lot more of that "this is high-level motorsport" mentality than at other events I've been to.

And of course the risk of falling into that trap is that the focus is placed on high science - whereby the fundamentals like brake & electrical routing, ergonomics & pedal tray design, and good load paths are overlooked in the pursuit of trickery.

There is a chance you might all interpret my comments above as an unqualified bagging. I truly hope not, I am only offering my observations on something that I thought was a bit of a cultural difference between events, and I'd love to hear feedback from those "at the coalface" so to speak.

Cheers all, and good luck at the event </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey Geoff,

Check your PM mate

murpia

07-08-2006, 05:58 AM

Hi All,

Thanks to Ben and Geoff for their comments. Unfortunately I'm missing the Endurance this year so now I'm back home here's my persepctive on what I saw at FStudent 2006...

1) The design processes followed by many teams are still fundamentally flawed. I have never yet judged a team who presented a proper top-down analysis of the competition requirements and a methodology for analysing their design against those requirements, which then led to their final product decisions.

(actually I just remembered that one Class 3 team did do pretty much that last year, with a fully parametrically modelled car they could compete with in 'virtual' events, sorry I don't have my 2005 notes handy to remember which team)

2) Teams still don't distingiush properly between their design concept, and their finished detailed and manufactured car.

3) I'm not so sure there has been a decline in engineering standards among the UK teams. This year I witnessed fewer fundamental errors, but many detailed design / manufacturing mistakes and lots of poor car preparation. I don't think that will ever be taught as part of an engineering course as such, as it wasn't when I studied 15 years ago. That is the beauty of FStudent, it allows the student that hands-on experience they would otherwise never get. You learn by your mistakes...

4) Following on from that comment, it is a sad fact that many UK team members are still denied the opportunity by their educational establishments to manufacture the cars, or at least the major components, themselves.

Finally, I do not personally believe that the European mega-teams with carbon / ti everything, Bluetooth this, CAN that and other trick bits have a higher chance of success because of the trick bits themselves. In fact the opposite may be true because they seem to get carried away by technology for it's own sake and introduce potential unreliability. Where these teams have an advantage is often in the quality of their design process and design analyis. That process quality is what really counts. I hope this encourages those more down-to-earth teams to use their brains, work out what's really important (yet often free, like Ben's load-path comment), how to make the right decisions and put them into practice.

I hope this stimulates some more debate.

Regards,
Ian Murphy
Formula Student 2006 Design Judging Team Leader

frau holle

07-08-2006, 09:50 AM

hi!

did anyboday hear something from the event?
espascilly results and some infos about sralsund team from germany?

thanks!

JR @ CFS

07-08-2006, 10:36 AM

All I know is that Queens University Belfast were 2nd in Acceleration and Design Events and were provisionally 4th overall going into the Enduro...just hope they finished the Enduro after the simple electrical failure last year!! Chalmers had a clutch problem in the Endurance event, so I think they are out! The internet connection has now been shut down at Bruntingthorpe, so we probably wont get any updates for a couple of hours until people get back to their hotels etc, or if someone is WAP connected on site!

OK, I have Graz information

Design-Event 1. Platz
Presentation Event 4. Platz
Cost Event 10. Platz
Acceleration Event 1. Platz
Skid-Pad 2. Platz
Autocross/Sprint Event 17. Platz
They also successfully finished the endurance...I worked that out with my broken german! 6 months in Switzerland did pay off then http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Eindhoven:
Skid Pad-26th
Acceleration-15th
Sprint-30th
Endurance-Out of Endurance
Design-17th
Cost-47th
Business-4th

Sorry folks, thats all the info I could get from all the websites.

Henrik Andersson

07-08-2006, 11:01 AM

Another update taken from team website:

Rennteam Universität Stuttgart
Costreport: 39:th with 55/100 points.
Acceleration: 28:th with 36,99/75 points, best time 4,77s.
Presentation: 27:th with 53,18/75 points
Sprint: 12:th with 100,82/150 points and time of 31,58s.
Skid-pad: 5:th with 43,05/50 points, time 5,095s and max lateral g's 1,33g
Design: 3:rd with 133/150 points
Endurance: Successfully finished!

Johannneum Racing, Austria
Acceleration: 5:th, best time unknown.
Skid-pad: 1:st, best time unknown.
Sprint: 3:rd, best time unknown.

TU München
Endurance: Out of race

KTH, Sweden
Acceleration: best time 4,41s.

LuleÃ¥, Sweden
Acceleration: best time 4,44s.

Henrik Andersson

07-08-2006, 01:29 PM

Final results courtesy of racing.tugraz.at

Overall
1. Toronto
2. TUG Racing Team
3. Oxford Brookes

Formula Student Awards
Class 1 Runner Up - TU Graz

IMechE Awards
Acceleration Winner - TU Graz

IET Prizes and Awards
Best Use of Web Site - TU Graz
Most Innovative Use of Electronic Controls - TU Graz

Shell Awards
Class 1 Design Winner - TU Graz

Pi Group Award
Best Packaged Electronics - TU Graz

Sir Henry Royce Memorial Foundation
Best Quality Engineered Car - TU Graz

JR @ CFS

07-08-2006, 06:32 PM

Ok, after a drunken conversaion with my old housemate who is also a member of Queens Formula Racing, I gathered that they finished 8th! I am F**king proud of them because the only reason they finished so low last year is because my project failed! JR

SQUIBS

07-08-2006, 06:49 PM

University of Tononto:
Design: 5th
Accel: 4th
Skidpad: 21st
Autocross: 4th
Enduro: 2nd

1st place overall

Another solid performance from the UofT team, Congrats team wish I could be there to celebrate, we'll hold it down back home until you guys return. Prepare for the worst and the best usually happens, all the hard work pays off. Congrats to all the teams and thanks to all the Formula Student Organisers and volunteers.

Big Bird

07-08-2006, 10:10 PM

Congrats to the lads for winning Formula Toronto once again. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif That's a damn impressive track record - and a triumph for sensible engineering management. Well done.

Congrats too to the OB lads, glad that the disappointment of Detroit is now behind you all.

Well done to all teams, and I look forward to seeing some photos of the event posted.

Cheers

V2 - Italy

07-09-2006, 01:11 AM

Congratulations to the Toronto team.

Once again they are the best at FS.

Congrats to all the teams that competed in UK, we are waiting for the pics....

frau holle

07-09-2006, 04:38 AM

Congratulations to the Toronto team and to all the other teams.
The overall results in all classes are available here (http://www.imeche.org.uk/formulastudent/pdf/Formula%20Student%202006%20Results%20Overall%20BR. xls).

V2 - Italy

07-09-2006, 08:20 AM

Please, could someone tell us the news about 2007 rules? http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

If something new was highlighted.

Thanx

markocosic

07-09-2006, 08:27 AM

So? Best event yet, weather excepted... (the ¾" rivers running through the pits on Wednesday morning were something else...) Fair play to the folks queuing for scrutineering under the tarps in spite of the pissing rain and lightning!

Site layout was excellent - the three-pronged pit setup with central "anybody with a left-handed screwdriver please see the army boys on the main gate" information and announcements was much tighter than the FSAE-West pits but far more social. (and a welcome refuge from the driving rain) Maybe the Calgary folks can comment on how nice it was to push a car 200 yards in 15C weather as compared to dragging it 1500 yards in 40C weather at FSAE West... Thursday and most teams seemed to be done with scrutineering. No real grumblings about unfairness the year either, although it's evident that they're far pickier (or take longer and prod more things/ask more questions) the better the car is turned out. Delft's workshop – quality! Tool manufacturers should take note – nothing to prevent there being more than just a welding tent (is canvas fireproof?!?) on the site for all to make use of. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Friday it never really dried out and this showed in performance this year versus last. Nothing as spectacular as the Leeds car fire of '05, though TU Graz deserve a mention for breaking the 4 second accel time, even with the poor weather and cold track. (wonder what that'll do in the dry?) Many more teams on the practice area than in '05, perhaps because the marshals were more relaxed about allowing folks access to the area and teams could get close enough to watch/advise/tune the cars there rather than observing from a great distance and tweaking them back in the pits? Noticed a few spectators had come prepared with picnic and cold beers or bottles of bubbly http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Saturday! Hats off to the endurance finishers – especially the (7th?) placed 1st year Stuttgart team, the tiny 1st year Zagreb team and the lads from Liverpool. (some very happy faces there!) "Blonde moment of the event" award must go to the Ulster lad who stepped off the start-line and promptly started heading the wrong way around the endurance track... http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif More finished this year than I think any other, probably helped by the weather being mild and those who were never going to finish endurance never completing enough dynamic events to start it? The Brookes car finally showed what it's made of after some disappointing accel/skidpad events, dominating the endurance with drivers as much fun to watch as the Helsinki boys as far as driving at 11/10ths goes! Their Avons were absolutely totalled by the end of endurance mind! (anybody have any pictures?) Atmosphere in the grandstand (amongst half the Austrian population...) was great – to the point even our self-confessed ˜control-freak' of an economist was enjoying herself – and we weren't even racing! The cheers and applause for ALL teams as they finished (or retired) was grand – even the disappointed drivers wheeling their cars off the track and past the stand couldn't help but raise a smile there. Shell BBQ was much better, with enough capacity such that the queues didn't stretch for miles and teams sat, chatted and milled about until the results came. (I wish airlines/banks/government offices would take note and feed people waiting, doesn't half make the time go quicker/shut us up!) Presentation ceremony in the evening was really long and the time to be Austrian! Trumped in the points-scoring events by the understated and eminently capable Toronto, then in raw pace by top performances by Brookes/Leeds, I don't think there was any question who's overall package earned the spotlight that evening!

I was going to do a "special thanks to" section for everybody who allowed us to pour over their designs; offered advice and assistance from places to visit or old cars to borrow for fresher's fayres; allowed themselves to be interviewed in a spectacularly cheesy style or otherwise went the extra mile – but it'd have to have at least 500 names on it! You know who you are folks - Julia, JV, Bob, Barney and I really appreciate your going out on a limb and are looking forward to competing with you/working with you/entering your competition (delete as appropriate...) in FS2007!

Feedback for the event organisers? Great event that ran smoothly (from the outside at least) and remarkably to time! Might be worth trying to move the VIP tent next year – replacing it with a grandstand/video vantage point that it's easier to cover accel/skidpad/endurance from? Marshalling appeared better than last year but still an issue – the Aston car was on the track for THREE LAPS after it broke down, car sent out onto the AutoX track RIGHT in front of another car about to finish, several instances of no yellow or blue flags where the there definitely should have been etc. (mistakes are inevitable, though these seemed excessive)

As a side-note I cried on the Saturday: £70 for 73 litres (only 460 miles – bloody XJ40!) of fuel... What made me cry wasn't the cost, rather the fact that it's STILL cheaper (also quicker and more practical), to drive even a thirsty old boat of a car than it is to take public transport. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Photos and videos (inc 2007 rules spiel, very shaky presentation ceremony) will be up here in due course: (one lung internet connection only) http://www.cosic.org.uk/galleryv2/main.php?g2_itemId=451

If anybody happens to find they've acquired a black umbrella (about 70cm long, with a curly cane handle) could you let me know please? I've left it in somebodies pits whilst looking over a car and it turns out it's an heirloom of sorts and has sentimental value to my grandmother – I'll gladly pay for it to be posted back and the beers/favours owed!

Cheers,

markocosic

07-09-2006, 09:22 AM

I thought hard about the "24hr rule" and this one but figure that even after a decent night's sleep, lie-in and afternoon chilling-out in the sunshine I'm still feeling/thinking the same way...

[Big Bird] "There is a chance you might all interpret my comments above as an unqualified bagging. I truly hope not, I am only offering my observations on something that I thought was a bit of a cultural difference between events, and I'd love to hear feedback from those "at the coalface" so to speak."

[Ben] "The biggest problem for me is academics in the UK looking down their noses at the competition as if it's not scientific enough. Student who don't have the backing of a good faculty advisor will struggle. This applies to most of the FS teams in the UK from what I can see."

<tar brush>

The UK suffers with what others have termed "bureaucracy." I'd call it institutions that are so far up themselves that not only do they not "support" would-be Formula SAE participants but actively go out of their way to "prevent" the formation of Formula SAE teams.

</tar brush>

<cynic mode>

Money comes from research. Academics are there to do research. Undergraduates are a necessary evil – for producing research students. They should not be seen or heard, they should learn only what we need them to know and should consume as few material/faculty resources as possible. Anything that makes them visible, equips them with transferable skills or occupies time that could be used to learn what we'd like them to know or consumes material/faculty resources is to be stomped on.

There /are/ academics (and businesses) out there that recognise the value of a team-based, applied style of learning when it comes to engineering and business. Most have long since got fed up and moved to continental Europe, the United States or Australia – but some still remain. The sad thing is that their hands are tied by the "old guard" that remain in power.

Historically this never really mattered – the pace of change was slow enough and life expectancy was short enough that the "old guard" died before they became a problem. It still works great for teaching English, History or Latin as they tend not to change too much. With an ever-increasing pace of change in the engineering and (slightly less so) sciences area - and ever-increasing life expectancies - waiting for the "old guard" to die off isn't really an option any more, and they've yet to come up with an alternative.

</cynic mode>

An exaggeration of the truth? Possibly. It's certainly the way it appears on the coal-face...

<tar brush>

What you get at the competition reflects this – the students may as well be a pub quiz team with members working in Tesco, McDonalds or the Post Office for all the education and support they receive from institutions. With a couple of exceptions, teams doing well and the motorsports industry in the UK are probably entirely down to the sheer bloody-mindedness, enthusiasm or we shall not be defeated attitude of the people...

</tar brush>

The US appears to have addressed this by making its trend-setting institutions private – if you don't change with the times you're out of research funding and a job, if the undergraduates don't rate you as a teacher you're out of a job etc. This (and the country in general) isn't without its problems either mind. Whilst over there I sure as hell wasn't comfortable with the proportion of Department of Defence/related industries funding versus funding for teaching and research that benefits mankind. Nor was I comfortable with the unproductive and unpleasant way that unless your parents had money you won't get an education. (or a hospital bed...) Richer institutions are slowly becoming able to tell government and corporates exactly what they will and won't do as well as ensuring that anybody can study there regardless of family/economic background, but other's don't have that option.

From speaking to RMIT's faculty advisor at FSAE West, Australia seems to be moving from a UK style system to a US style system as far as course structure goes, don't know how the funding/organisation works but you still pick up on "everybody builds stuff/invents stuff/we're all capable of doing everything ourselves" with most Aussies/Kiwis, presumably due to the history of the place? Not sure how continental Europe runs things yet – look forward to trying to work this out whilst spending time with the teams from the mainland!

Leeds Racing

07-09-2006, 11:09 AM

Mixed feelings at the moment from me. Need to leave a little more time before i trully decide how i feel.

An amazing weekend (ish) none the less, formula student truly changes you as a person, and builds friendships that will never be lost.

Thanks to all the cool people and teams we spoke to, and the encouraging and kind words of many people.

Big thanks especially go to Delhi for giving us some steel to make a push bar!!!! hah hah, cheers guys.

ben

07-09-2006, 12:07 PM

Congrats to Toronto. A fine win for a well sorted, conventional (and that's a compliment) car. For the people who whine about budgets as a reason for losing to the likes of TUG you can't say the same about Toronto. An object lesson for all on how to run a fundraising effort and a team.

BTW Toronto were also kind enough to fit my company's 2D Datarecording GPS logger to their car for the autocross on Friday. I should have a GPS map of the track (x, y and z) available for all teams at some point this week. Cheers guys :-)

Ben

Chris_S

07-09-2006, 12:47 PM

Congratulations to Toronto and Graz.

My first year at Formula Student, with the UH Racing Class 1-200 team).

Good to see other universities take on producing an FS car.

Our car wen't well the whole weekend, putting in good results across the board. Shame the weather took a turn for the worse, hurting our times in the dymamic events. In testing the car was much faster (Sub 4 second accelleration times).

Was a shame to see our competitors drop out through mechanical failures, good luck for next year.

Will be back in a couple of years with the Class 1 team.

Chris

Ianb

07-09-2006, 01:33 PM

well done to everyone who competed, was good to see all the other teams had just as much desire to win as us, was a good spirit between the teams. I was really impressed with my first FS event.

V2 - Italy

07-10-2006, 01:38 PM

One question about the results:
the Design results are limited to 138points instead of 150 as happens in USA.

Do you know why?

Daniele

murpia

07-10-2006, 01:46 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by V2 - Italy:
One question about the results:
the Design results are limited to 138points instead of 150 as happens in USA.

Do you know why?

Daniele </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Design Report and Design Spec Sheet penalties, as specified in the Formula Student rules.

Regards, Ian Murphy
Formula Student 2006 Design Judging Team Leader

SR-Mike

07-10-2006, 02:35 PM

Congrats to all teams who competed in the Formula Student event. From my point of view the standard was by far the highest I've seen in the 4 years I've been at the event. This was illustrated perfectly by the number who finished the endurance.

At Strathclyde we were delighted with our 16th place finish overall. It was great to see all the time and effort that the team has put in over the last 12 months finally paying off. The car and the team ran without a hitch (almost), mainly due to our (to quote the judges) "no frills" concept and 2 months of testing. The only thing lacking was a couple of pro drivers, as I had never quite fully appreciated the role of the driver until faced with my 1st sprint run, or was it when I was watching one of the faster UK teams performance before and after the driver change.

All this does however leave us with some clear aims for the German event in August.

I personally thought the design penalties were extremely harsh, 2 points lost for not including a word count! I can't remember reading that one anywhere although please correct me if I'm wrong, and while I mention it what use is a word count in the design report anyway.

And a big thanks to Toronto for letting us borrow a starter relay. Cheers and well done guys

Mike

University of Strathclyde Motorsport, 02-06
www.formulastudent.strath.ac.uk (http://www.formulastudent.strath.ac.uk)

sscollins

07-10-2006, 02:38 PM

I have to give a lot of respect to the Slovenians for the red thing that Lewis Beales rather unfairly nicknamed the 'Forklift' I thought it was a most interesting car.

It really was close at the top however - could of gone three ways.

TU Graz - is that car really in the spirit of the competition, certainly its a lovely piece of work but can the smaller unis or ones from less wealthy nations really compete with that?

You can see my report in the September issue of racecar engineering (and no doubt Ben's rebuke to me about it will be in the following issue - Ben feel free it sparked a great debate last year!)

Meanwhile in the next few weeks I'll get some pics up on the racecar site (notebook section) including of the mashed brookes tyres.

AND!! after initially poor response, we had a strong run on subscriptions at Bruntingthorpe so the money pople have decreed that the 40% student discount can continue... e-mail me to get the discount form. Sam_collins@ipcmedia.com

V2 - Italy

07-10-2006, 02:43 PM

Mi_Ko

07-10-2006, 04:54 PM

Hi!
Congrats to Toronto, Graz, Oxford Brookes & all others,...

SSColins, I'm interested in your statement about the Slovenians. What did impress you so much? (Except of their team spirit and the huge amount of work from every member of the small team.) As a former team member I must say, the car is geting better in every year! But the steps we make, are way to small to catch our competitors.

Talking about the spirit of the competition... It's quite simple: To learn something! And I'm sure the Graz guys learned a lot! And the most important lecture was, how to manage a team to be succesfull!!

kwancho

07-10-2006, 07:41 PM

Uhm, since I can't read German, anybody care to fill me in more about the Graz team?

Big Bird

07-10-2006, 08:14 PM

Sam,

Firstly, thanks for your continued support of these competitions. Convincing sponsors to support us is an ongoing problem for all teams, and being able to show competition reports in magazines such as Racecar Eng really aids our credibility. Cheers for that.

We couldn't make it to the comp this year, but from what I have seen the overall standard has taken a giant leap forward compared to when we were there in 2004. And it is great to see all the top 10 scoring more than 700 points, that is a sign of a good competition.

I've also just taken a look at the Graz website, and I agree that is one mighty spectacular piece of engineering. But I don't necessarily agree with your assessment of other teams not being able to compete with their budget. The first point of proof is the team who finished above them, and who have also won three out of the last four FStudent comps. Toronto have a quite simple and very well executed car - and prove year after year that "trickness" doesn't necessarily win the event.

Once all the management processes are in place, a score of 800 points or more is easily achievable on a reasonable budget. It just takes a bit of wisdom as to where you chase those points. Most teams look at acceleration times as a benchmark, and unfortunately this is one area where expensive development programs can help. (Although not necessarily - U Queensland here in Oz always do well in acceleration - and they are not a big budget team). But if you give a little on the acceleration fixation, you can settle for economy points, for instance.

Take a look at Graz vs Dartmouth, and sum the points from Accel + Sprint + Endurance + Economy. These are all the events where forward acceleration play a role (and therefore where your engine development program gives points returns). The sum total is 492.63 vs 493.04 points in Dartmouth's favour. Dartmouth are a lower budget team just using a different strategy. It is easy to look at the Graz car and say "that's not fair, we can't compete" - but with due respect I doubt people would be saying the same about the Dartmouth car.

The organizers of these events are quite wise - and it is not in theirs, or anyone else's best interests to run a comp where your results are determined by how big your cheques are. The points allocation reflects that, and the smart teams work with it.

Another thesis on my behalf, sorry about that folks! Keep up the good work Sam.

Cheers,

Big Bird

07-10-2006, 08:17 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Alex Kwan:
Uhm, since I can't read German, anybody care to fill me in more about the Graz team? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is a little flag up in the top right hand corner of their website, click it and the whole thing pops out in English.

Us English speaking people sure get spoilt, eh? http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Cheers

murpia

07-11-2006, 01:15 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SR-Mike:
I personally thought the design penalties were extremely harsh, 2 points lost for not including a word count! I can't remember reading that one anywhere although please correct me if I'm wrong, and while I mention it what use is a word count in the design report anyway.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://www.imeche.org.uk/formulastudent/rules.asp section 8.1 it's even helpfully highlighted in yellow as it's a significant change since 2005.

As to why a word count, and why the rules take considerable care to specify precisely the format of the written submissions, I can offer the following:

1) The word count maximum of 2500 and the 4 page text limit are there to encourage concise, relevant design reports with the minimum of padding. Those limits are entirely adequate for the task.

2) The Design Report and Design Spec Sheet common formatting / units are there for the convenience of the judges who have to read up to 60 reports in a short space of time. If anyone wishes to argue that the volunteer judges should be more inconvenienced than absolutely necessary, we will take that argument private and you may even learn some new vocabulary...

3) The technical rules and by extension the FStudent event rules, have been likened many times to those written requirements that form a large part of real-world engineering. Think legal regulations, quality procedures such as ISO9000, health and safety requirements, the list is endless. In the real world ignorance is no defence legally and as an engineering education scheme at least in FStudent no-one takes you to court if you get it wrong!

Regards, Ian Murphy
Formula Student 2006 Design Judging Team Leader

ben

07-11-2006, 02:41 AM

Sam - Geoff's helpfully answered your question in much the same way I would "How do they compete?" Well they assess their resources and build a car that maximises performance within those constraints along with those laid down in the rules.

I'm sick of mediocre teams looking at people like TUG and saying the reason they were beaten was a lack of carbon fibre or telemetry, when the real reason is, more often than not, a lack of a coherent design concept and decent team management.

You can win these comps with a simple car like Cornell, Toronto et al build. If you accept that this is the type of car you must build, then build it to the highest level you can win.

Ben

SR-Mike

07-11-2006, 04:02 AM

Ian

Thanks for the clarification. It really is important to read ALL the rules, not just the FSAE document.

Cheers

Mike

ben

07-11-2006, 04:32 AM

I'm still annoyed that the IMechE always feel the need to modify the rules seemingly just for the sake of having some influence over it.

The page limit is fine and was all I needed to make my reports concise.

However, despite that, it was in the rules and if you don't read the rules you'll lose points.

Ben

murpia

07-11-2006, 04:48 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ben:
I'm sick of mediocre teams looking at people like TUG and saying the reason they were beaten was a lack of carbon fibre or telemetry, when the real reason is, more often than not, a lack of a coherent design concept and decent team management.

You can win these comps with a simple car like Cornell, Toronto et al build. If you accept that this is the type of car you must build, then build it to the highest level you can win.

Ben </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well said Ben! Personally I was sick this year of teams who set uncompetitive weight targets then missed even those by a country mile. I agree you may not reach 125kg without a serious budget and some high technology, but did the 125kg car win? Or even the 180kg car? 200kg for a conventional spaceframe 4 cylinder is entirely possible, relatively cheap and given a coherent design concept and decent team management easily realisable.

Regards, Ian

murpia

07-11-2006, 05:03 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ben:
I'm still annoyed that the IMechE always feel the need to modify the rules seemingly just for the sake of having some influence over it.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think these changes were made at the request of the Chief Judges, rather than the IMechE, since they are the ones who actually have to read all the reports.

From my point of view, standard 12pt fonts and <2500 words made it very easy to read all my groups' reports on a Ryanair plane...

Also one problem fixed this year was the Design Spec Sheets. By using a common layout and standard units I was able to confirm in a few seconds that the teams had actually entered new data in all the fields and not just carried over (or copied) the examples. IMO the supplied sheet should actually be blank, but I guess there are enough old sheets out there by now for a team to copy from that it makes little difference. Surprising how many teams thought a 600cc 4-cylinder would have a 95.0mm bore though...

Regards, Ian

Zanini

07-11-2006, 05:13 AM

Congrats to all the teams at FS.

The level of competition was very stiff this year. All the teams stepped it up a notch and were more organized, focused and had better cars.
Our team took home the win thanks to our great leaders (Maggie and Nadia) and the excellent teamwork of all our members both in FS and back home in Toronto.

As to some of the previous comments.
A large budget is only beneficial if used effectively. You can't use another teams' access to resources as an excuse. You have to make due with what you have and if you want more you need to go out and get it for yourself. Our team has worked 10 hard years to get the resource base we have and it must constantly be maintained. You need the resources to build the car. You need proper marketing to get the resources. You need the car in order to effectively market.

Thanks to the organizers for putting on such a great event. And thanks to all the other teams. It's the teams that make this event so great and fun to go to. Also a special thanks to the on track announcers. It's really fun to go to the edge of the track and watch the other teams and be entertained by the announcers with the over the top comments and team member interviews.

ben

07-11-2006, 06:18 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by murpia:

I think these changes were made at the request of the Chief Judges, rather than the IMechE, since they are the ones who actually have to read all the reports.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fair point - was never a problem for me, but I appreciate that it was for others.

Having said that I did not have the opportunity to read any of the reports because I wasn't sent them prior to the event...

Ben

ss_collins

07-11-2006, 10:01 AM

Hmm maybe I'm wrong about Graz then.

Just a heads up to the USA students - there is a cheaper limited time offer on the racecar website offering a subscription for $70.99 - slightly cheaper than the 40% student rate. Check that first

repeatoffender

07-11-2006, 02:53 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ss_collins:
Hmm maybe I'm wrong about Graz then.

Just a heads up to the USA students - there is a cheaper limited time offer on the racecar website offering a subscription for $70.99 - slightly cheaper than the 40% student rate. Check that first </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So you poms are trying to sell stuff now?

Where are the bloody pics of the event? ive seen only 1 link!!! Get your act together

JR @ CFS

07-11-2006, 03:47 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ss_collins:
Hmm maybe I'm wrong about Graz then.

Just a heads up to the USA students - there is a cheaper limited time offer on the racecar website offering a subscription for $70.99 - slightly cheaper than the 40% student rate. Check that first </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bloody Aussies...I think you have had one to many VB's! http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I advise you look at the very first post in this topic and I think you might find what you are looking for http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Nice pics mark...this all of them, or a selected few?

g4chris

07-11-2006, 09:00 PM

Way to go guys! Wish we (the ones back home) were there to be part of the victory. However, we did have quite some fun at the Grand Prix of Toronto (Champ Car) this past weekend and here's a sneak peek http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. Enjoy the time off in Barcelona and a safe trip home.
http://individual.utoronto.ca/c3wongci/PICT0017.JPG

Kimmo Hirvonen

07-12-2006, 09:31 AM

Congrats to the Toronto team! It was a solid performance.
I think the level of competition is getting higher and higher every year in FS. From my point of view we did quite the same leveled performance in FSAE and FS and finished 5th and 4th. Eagerly waiting what FSG will bring? Three of top four FS teams will be face to face again. Helsinki&Oxford for the third time this year, wins 1-1.
Here are some pictures from Bruntingthorpe. They would've been here sooner but I got hold of them just few hours ago.

http://www.formula.stadia.fi/

I probably will put some videos there too. At least some on-board footage. But I'll inform you when I get that done.

Craig Dawson

07-12-2006, 10:32 AM

First of all really well done to Toronto and UoT Graz, you guys both did an awesome job. We had a fantastic weekend really, and a week of "If's" as the Helsinki guys say. To the Stadia guys, you were awesome competitors as always! We yet again were so close on points, its great. If you take into account FSAE and FS last year its now 2-2 in wins over each other!

Well done to Hert's, you guys are great rivals and its great competing against you, well done to both of your cars.

Thanks to all the organisers, everyone at the IMechE, and the SAE guys and gals, its so good having you at our comp.

Germany should be great, we're really looking forward to getting out there, Frank and his team look like they have done an amazing job of organising it. Hopefully we should have some pics up soon.

Oh, and thanks Kimmo for that lovely photo of me!

Kimmo Hirvonen

07-12-2006, 11:14 AM

You're welcome Craig. If you want the full version to make e.g. fan-posters, give me a shout.
Now I added an on-board video of our 1st sprint, enjoy.

http://www.formula.stadia.fi/

V2 - Italy

07-12-2006, 01:01 PM

Have you got the sprint and the endurance official time?

Iloper

07-13-2006, 07:33 AM

Here are pictures from Chalmers fotographer.

Chalmers photos (http://formula.altronix.se/)

As you can se on the pictures, we never had a problem with the clutch during endurance, instead it was a carbon fibre driveshaft that broke in the glued spline insert.

We also had problems with the TPS sensor, therefore we lost alot in accelleration, skidpad and sprint.

/Per
CNC responsible CFS

Jim400

07-13-2006, 02:28 PM

I must agree another great comp, Well done to Toronto again, some time soon a uni from europe will beat you, i must admit after Friday i thought it was this year. Oxford Brooks guys my hat goes off to you all, you guys deserved a good finish after all the problems you had in America and hopefully you'll do better in Germany. Finally well done to my boys at Hertfordshire, to the class 1 team, at Christmas we all thought you would'nt make it to the comp so 5th is a great result and to the Class 200 team, you guys put in so much hard work and were so professional at all times no mater what was thrown at you, winning class 200 was the icing on the cake.
Also alot of you have been asking for pics of Brooks rather second hand tyres during the second half of the enduro and Craig's full on driving style winning them the enduro, here's some pics.

http://images6.theimagehosting.com/1.280.jpg

http://images6.theimagehosting.com/2.cb2.jpg

James Waters
University of Hertfordshire 2005 FS, 2006 FSAE

markocosic

07-13-2006, 03:33 PM

And here's the (really crummy quality) video to go with those tyres. (1) is the first driver; (2) is a 'warmup' lap for craig, (3) is craig in full swing.

Video Clips (http://www.cosic.org.uk/fs/Vids/) (please save to disk/don't stream)

And they did that /every/ lap near enough - the most consistnet 'nucking futters' I've seen in a while! http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif It's not even just the big slide either - slowmo the video down to ~1/10th speed and you can see the car sliding on almost every manoeuvre.

SR-Mike

07-13-2006, 04:53 PM

Some photos of the event taken by the Strathclyde team are up on our website.

www.formulastudent.strath.ac.uk (http://www.formulastudent.strath.ac.uk)

http://www.formulastudent.strath.ac.uk/data/media/photos/2005-2006/2006-07-06-competition-ab/IMG_3447.jpg

enjoy

mike

Craig Dawson

07-14-2006, 03:36 AM

Thank you for your kind comments guys. Those pics are awesome James, and the videos are brilliant too. Thank you for posting them up. The tyres were indeed secondhand! Jon said they had gone off 2 laps before the driver change, and I think I got about half a lap out of them. Throwing it around was the only way to get it round really.

RacingManiac

07-16-2006, 05:09 PM

and here comes my usual picture post....

http://www.supercars.net/pitlane/pics/2637205u.jpg
http://www.supercars.net/pitlane/pics/2637205l.jpg
http://www.supercars.net/pitlane/pics/2637205c.jpg
http://www.supercars.net/pitlane/pics/2637205d.jpg
http://www.supercars.net/pitlane/pics/2637205f.jpg
http://www.supercars.net/pitlane/pics/2637205e.jpg
http://www.supercars.net/pitlane/pics/2637205q.jpg
http://www.supercars.net/pitlane/pics/2637205i.jpg
http://www.supercars.net/pitlane/pics/2637253c.jpg
http://www.supercars.net/pitlane/pics/2637253d.jpg

again....PM me if you need the full pic...

PatClarke

07-17-2006, 03:10 AM

Quote Marko...." I thought hard about the "24hr rule" and this one but figure that even after a decent night's sleep, lie-in and afternoon chilling-out in the sunshine I'm still feeling/thinking the same way...

Good to see you take good advice Marko ;-)
Regards
Pat

terra_dactile

07-20-2006, 07:14 AM

hi,
was wondering what the top cars weighed in at during the formula student event,

Jude berthault
Ets Fsae
Steering & brake system leader

murpia

07-20-2006, 08:31 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by terra_dactile:
hi,
was wondering what the top cars weighed in at during the formula student event,

Jude berthault
Ets Fsae
Steering & brake system leader </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://www.imeche.org.uk/formulastudent/pdf/FS2006%20Of...s%20Class1_1_200.pdf (http://www.imeche.org.uk/formulastudent/pdf/FS2006%20Official%20Results%20Class1_1_200.pdf)

Regards, Ian

www.covunimotorsport.co.uk

07-21-2006, 09:15 AM

I hope that all of you guys saw the pit girls the coventry team had this year, and the effect that it had. Our car was regarded as one of the most photographed failures (our competition didnt go great with wet running and a broken driveshaft in the enduro).

We did have some great marketing though (even though the marketing event was real shit, my fault) because we had the pit girls, we set up a Scalextric set for people to play on and had a raffle for people to win sets.

I hope next year we arent the only ones who bring some skin with us next year (I am obviously not counting the germans in their lauderhausen).

Matthew Poat

Former Head of Marketing
Coventry University Team

Latest employee of DMS TEchnologies (Makers of Varley Red Top Racing Batteries)

http://img67.imageshack.us/img67/5377/img2855fcg9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img392.imageshack.us/img392/8283/pb086456rd1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

AukeBaas

07-25-2006, 12:33 AM

Very nice shooting there, RacingManiac. I also put some photo's of are on my site, check them out on
http://www.flickr.com/photos/22744532@N00/sets/72157594211147533/

http://static.flickr.com/75/197854958_5f3364f299.jpg?v=0 http://static.flickr.com/66/197843780_385db9a2b7.jpg?v=0
http://static.flickr.com/59/197843633_ddb512c5fb.jpg?v=0
http://static.flickr.com/74/197843622_e609ca63ba.jpg?v=0
http://static.flickr.com/74/197843997_9643015029.jpg?v=0
http://static.flickr.com/57/197843893_114f3dbd0e.jpg?v=0

Schumi_Jr

08-03-2006, 04:17 PM

Congrats to U of T on their latest F Student win. You guys really have that track figured out.

Looks like Graz brought another excellent car... I'd definately watch out for them next year

RacingManiac

08-04-2006, 01:51 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Schumi_Jr:
Congrats to U of T on their latest F Student win. You guys really have that track figured out.

Looks like Graz brought another excellent car... I'd definately watch out for them next year </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

looking forward to seeing the 06 Waterloo in action at the shootout....tough luck for you guys this year at Michigan. You guys had a really nice car....

Nice work placement there!

Steve Yao

08-07-2006, 06:23 PM

Was wondering if anyone could comment on car weights at FStudent.

-Lightest?
-U Toronto
-Helsinki
-TU Graz
-Oxford Brookes

Thanks

Big Bird

08-07-2006, 09:27 PM

Steve, there is a post further up the page from murpia with a link to the results. All weights on there if you scan through. If I remember rightly, Delft weighed in lightest at 125 kg.

Cheers,

ss_collins

08-10-2006, 08:48 AM

Current issue of Racecar has a write up (by me) on FSUK - 06. Its got a green Honda on the cover

Steve Yao

08-10-2006, 05:50 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Big Bird:
Steve, there is a post further up the page from murpia with a link to the results. All weights on there if you scan through. If I remember rightly, Delft weighed in lightest at 125 kg.

Cheers, </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks. I will endeavor to read the rest of the thread in the future. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

ben

08-13-2006, 12:42 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ss_collins:
Current issue of Racecar has a write up (by me) on FSUK - 06. Its got a green Honda on the cover </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK write up Sam. One problem though "No winged car has won an FSAE event" If you mean FSAE specifically as the Detroit event fine, but it was in the FS article so I asume you meant all of them. A basic fact check would have shown up Cal Poly Pomona's FS win with some of the biggest wings ever built.

As is often the case, the best words about the comp came from Geoff Pearson, credit to you for publishing his words on the correspondance page.

Once again though you use the FS article to get all excited about a poor car (UCLAN last year, Maribor this) just because it was a bit different. Now the same year Cal Poly won at the NEC event Maribor debuted with a car and performed well. You can pretend they have difficulties other teams don't but that car 5 years ago was better than the 05 and 06 cars and the team has regressed rather than progressed in that period.

As for the list of retirement reasons, you need to read you editors comments about shooting fish in a barrel and think about the fact that you aren't reviewing a professional series - did the Le Mans 24hours report have such a list??

Ben

murpia

08-14-2006, 06:55 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ben:
As is often the case, the best words about the comp came from Geoff Pearson, credit to you for publishing his words on the correspondance page. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well said Ben. Also I was please to read CAWs editorial comments and Pat Symonds 'Debrief' comments too.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ben:
Once again though you use the FS article to get all excited about a poor car (UCLAN last year, Maribor this) just because it was a bit different. Now the same year Cal Poly won at the NEC event Maribor debuted with a car and performed well. You can pretend they have difficulties other teams don't but that car 5 years ago was better than the 05 and 06 cars and the team has regressed rather than progressed in that period. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

An instance of the 'human interest' journalistic angle, maybe? A shame though that neither Racecar nor Racetech have this year highlighted the problem faced by many of the UK team's student members, who are not allowed to actively contribute to the manufacturing and fabrication of their racecars.

Often the 'Health and Safety' argument is used. But rather than educate students on the safe use of hand and machine tools the policy seems to be 'don't touch!' What example is this to set to student who once graduated (and chartered, presumably, as most Universities laud their 'accredited' degree status) may be responsible for forming H&S assessments, risk assessments etc. as part of their daily engineering role?

Those University staff members who make these policies need to be reminded of the consequences, and what better forum for debate than the mainstream motorsport engineering international press?

Regards, Ian

ben

08-14-2006, 07:08 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by murpia:

An instance of the 'human interest' journalistic angle, maybe? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Unfortunately this occurs a little too often for my liking with the current generation of RE.

Still some good tech content (modelling fluid structure interactions in the current edition) but it's dangerously close to being the Sam Collins world motorsport travel log at times.

Good point though Ian about H&S and the problems of getting a car built. CAW's comments of mentoring were spot on and I think FS needs this. At FSAE each team alsways had a mentor allocated at the event - is this still done?

Ben

sscollins

08-15-2006, 01:36 PM

Hi chaps,

we are aware of the situation re H&S but is there any solution??

Winged car - I thought one had but Steve Daum insisted not!

we have more FS coverage coming - it can get too much to pile it all into one issue so it filters out eventually.

Its not credited but I also write the debrief section (unless stated otherwise - like the NASCAR page).

re my travel guide - sometimes it does seem that way but we try to produce a balanced issue with something for everyone (in engineering terms) so that means sometimes I have a whole pile of stuff in one issue and next to nothing in others.

The top level of our readership are seriously good motorsport engineers so we need to cater for them, whilst at the same time cater for 1st year students and club racers.

Ben I'm sure I owe you a beer - we should meet up sometime and argue about poor FS cars vs good FS cars.

Oh and if you think me and Elliot 'shooting fish' was harsh - wait till you see Stanniforth's view...

Chris_S

08-15-2006, 04:37 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by murpia:
Often the 'Health and Safety' argument is used. But rather than educate students on the safe use of hand and machine tools the policy seems to be 'don't touch!' What example is this to set to student who once graduated (and chartered, presumably, as most Universities laud their 'accredited' degree status) may be responsible for forming H&S assessments, risk assessments etc. as part of their daily engineering role?

Those University staff members who make these policies need to be reminded of the consequences, and what better forum for debate than the mainstream motorsport engineering international press?

Regards, Ian </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

At Hertfordshire, we are expected to fabricate/build the car (with the help of the manufacturing department for precision items, as well as other CNC companies).
This also goes for the Class 1-200 entry, all of the modifications were done by us, many of which carried over onto the Class 1 car. Hence both cars looking very similar on the outside. Most noticeably of which was the radiator.

The technicians we have are very good, showing us how to do things. And once they think your good enough, they start to trust you.

I think its really important that engineers should be able to fabricate parts. Its surprising how many people get lost in a workshop, not knowing what tools to use. Which leads to the accidents, so the Uni decides to remove the students from workshops on H&S grounds, rather than correcting them, or providing suitable training.

Big Bird

08-15-2006, 06:33 PM

Excellent thread, excellent input from all concerned, especially earlier comments on design integrity. The "tragedy" is that i think much of what is being said is lost to a large proportion of those who need to read this stuff, because it is filed under the FStudent results thread. I notice that we have had 8000 hits on this thread (and I imagine a good 1000 of those would be myself, murpia and Ben). And reading through the contributors, most are Eurocentric. Over 40,000 hits on some of the other results threads. Just an observation, and a bit of a shame.

ben

08-16-2006, 12:18 AM

On the other hand it's no coincidence that this forum is well populated by people from teams that consistantly perform well.

Having the humility to realise that someone else might know better is a big part of understanding your competition and feeding that back into you own designs.

On the H&S issue, my experience was similar to that of Chris from UH - more freedom once the trust is built up. And before the protestations start, we also started off with "No you're not using the machine shop" persitance is key.

Ben

OT Geoff - I'll be in Melbourne from 12/9 to 19/9, obviously working at the weekend :-)

Psychosis

08-16-2006, 02:33 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ben:
On the H&S issue, my experience was similar to that of Chris from UH - more freedom once the trust is built up. And before the protestations start, we also started off with "No you're not using the machine shop" persitance is key.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

H&S is a strange one. it very much depends who's in charge. we as a team have free reign when it comes to welding, but arent allowed to touch a lathe/mill or pillar drill apparently due to H&S. I feel its more about technicians being reluctant to let you touch their things!!

regardless, we moan about it, but in the end we have a car to build, and you do the best with the resources you have. we got on great with Cardiff and through chatting to them realised an obvious and major difference in our cars. they can machine/CNC but limited welding. we're the opposite, upto 8weeks to wait for a machined part (CNC only through a sponsor). welding is something we control, hence as much as possible is welded sheetmetal.

It really shows in the finished car, both good cars, just totally different manufacturing processes. It is possible to do well with limited resources, if you make intelligent use of the ones you have and your sponsors, not forgetting hopefully the most plentiful resource, motivated team members!!

Alastair Clarke

08-16-2006, 08:18 AM

H&S seems to be, to a certain extent, dependent on the person applying the rules!!! We (Cardiff) were originally only allowed access to machines etc under 1:1 supervision by a technician (which kind of defeats the point as you then need as many technicians as team members who want to use the workshop). However, after a bit of persuasion, the rules have gradually been relaxed, to the point where I've now got a workshop key and 24hr access.....

Having a team member (me!) with a machining qualification and a fair bit of experience helps, but even then technicians are a strange bunch until they get to know you.

We've also found that a willingness to help keep the shop tidy helps - i.e. I usually make sure people tidy up after themselves, and try and keep the machines oiled/well adjusted. It just kind of puts you in a good light with the technicians if they see you're not out to totally destroy their lovely workshop.

Of course the other argument that swung the workshop access was as follows - we were donated 2 bench-top CNC machines which we got up and running. We linked them into a copy of Mastercam to write the G-Codes. When the technicians started to see the really bling bits of work we were making with these machines, they started to look at us a bit differently, and realised that perhaps we could be trusted with making parts and, you never know, we might actually do a good job!!!

Being useful also helps - we've now got access to a full-scale 3axis CNC machining centre, mainly because we often use our CAM software to write code for jobs other people want to do on the machine, which has opened up it's capabilities a bit but which also means we've got a large stock of favours owed for when we want to use the machine.

I think, technically speaking, the rule that students should be supervised etc is still in place, but not really enforced any more.

Of course, all this can change. We used to have a team member who had been a coded welder in a previous life, so we had no problem getting welding/fabrication done (they were quite happy to let him use the welder etc). He's now left and so our fabrication access is limited again.

Really, we just try and do the best with what we've got access to at the time. For the teams having trouble getting access to manufacturing facilities, keep at it. It helps a lot if you try and meet the technicians half way - they'll more than likely start to relax the rules once they realise you're not an accident waiting to happen....

Cheers

Alastair

markocosic

08-16-2006, 01:48 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Alastair Clarke:
H&S seems to be, to a certain extent, dependent on the person applying the rules!!! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

H&S prevents nothing - it merely requires that you acknowledge the risks involved in what you're about to do. "H&S won't allow it" just means "I won't allow it..."

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">For the teams having trouble getting access to manufacturing facilities, keep at it. It helps a lot if you try and meet the technicians half way - they'll more than likely start to relax the rules once they realise you're not an accident waiting to happen.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Couldn't agree more - including the bit I cut out.

There's a flat-out no students in the workshops rule at our place, but demonstrate that you're an asset and not a liability and you're in there. An interest in classic cars, steam-engines and the likes invariably wins brownie points. Don't under-estimate the power of the 10:30am bacon sandwich either!

Creative job descriptions (I'd like to <STRIKE>skim</STRIKE> smooth the surface of this <STRIKE>cylinder head</STRIKE> coffee table support so that <STRIKE>it has a cat in hell's chance of sealing again</STRIKE> the glass doesn't rock on the top any more - raises fewer liability alarm bells with their bosses) and tracking large university projects (I'd like a bag of grade 12.9 M12 bolts for <STRIKE> the recovery point on my car</STRIKE> job number 1975324 in architecture please) is cheeky but can work if the techies are sympathetic but their employers not.

There is another way - open stores (for small things), open workshops (for non-valuable equipment), 'good trash' (deliberately throwing out what the students/recent grads had asked for and billing it to the current research projects), student workshop with a tech to do nothing but show the students how to machine, an overall atmosphere of trust. Seemed to work fine at MIT, but attitudes towards undergraduate education would kill it here.

Kimmo Hirvonen

09-19-2006, 02:53 AM

Not sure where to put this, gallery or here but as I was editing our season summary I came across a clip from FS where our car hits a cone apparently quite hard.

http://www.formula.stadia.fi/videot/FS_Helsinki_jump.mpg

I'm quite sure you'll need some sort of codec to view that since some of our school's computers play it and some don't.

Big Bird

09-28-2006, 04:59 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by murpia:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ben:
I'm still annoyed that the IMechE always feel the need to modify the rules seemingly just for the sake of having some influence over it.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think these changes were made at the request of the Chief Judges, rather than the IMechE, since they are the ones who actually have to read all the reports.

From my point of view, standard 12pt fonts and <2500 words made it very easy to read all my groups' reports on a Ryanair plane...

Also one problem fixed this year was the Design Spec Sheets. By using a common layout and standard units I was able to confirm in a few seconds that the teams had actually entered new data in all the fields and not just carried over (or copied) the examples. IMO the supplied sheet should actually be blank, but I guess there are enough old sheets out there by now for a team to copy from that it makes little difference. Surprising how many teams thought a 600cc 4-cylinder would have a 95.0mm bore though...

Regards, Ian </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I remember reading this a couple of months back and thinking the 95mm bore sounded familiar. Was just searching on Google for some WR450 info, and was surprised that the first link that popped up was the official proforma FStudent Design Spec Sheet. So I took a look - and there in all its glory is our full spec sheet that we submitted for our FStudent trip in 2004. Word for word. The only difference is that the FS organizers deleted our uni name.

It's all old news now, but if you are after data for an RMIT car it is all there. I'm sure all the Euros were wondering who came up with such ridiculous design data!

Cheers all